Reports: IAF Landed at Saudi Base, US Troops near Iran Border

I have to disagree with the statement that nobody can detect the stealth. turns out the serbians were pretty good at tracking the stealth. what they did was simply noticed that right before a stealth bombed something all the TV's and radios in the area got disturbed. track and chart the time and disturbations of the tv's and it makes a neat path. thats how they figured out where out strealths were coming from and the paths they took. You can shoot down stealth. it's detectable.

Stealth is not invisible. It has reduced image on radar screen, up to 40% of normal plane. It also has ability to detect radar type tracking it, so if it is a Doppler radar it will keep its distance stable from it, and not be detected (but any plane can do that). Many tricks there, but not really invisible.

Originally posted by Maiden PEI
Hi,


I've always wondered . . . why is it alright for other countries . . .

especially the US & Israel . . . to have not only nukes, but LOTS of

nukes . . . & not ok for Iran to have ANY?


Seems kinda skewed to me.

I am really getting tired of this comment. Anyone with a modicum of sense knows why Iran cannot be allowed to have nuclear arms. Those that truly cant tell the difference, are those whose reasoning is not to be trusted.

Originally posted by nenothtu

Originally posted by wcitizen

When will this insanity end? The card from the Illuminati boardgame comes to mind. "Kill for peace". Suich a mindset is lunacy, and people still keep buying into it.

Simple concept, really. Those persons you kill will NEVER, EVER disturb your peace again, or even threaten to. They get pretty mute after that.

Billions of ordinary people all over the world just want to live in peace. Is that so very far out?

They should consider enforcing that desire. I don't even care who they start with, as long as they keep them safe from the agressor side while they pacify them.

Old Geek saying:
If you would have peace, prepare for war.


[edit on 6/26/2010 by Phedreus]

reply to post by Sir Solomon


the guerrilla card! Israel and the US understand they would be unable to win that kind of war. This will be a major set of stikes by missles and planes, on Iran's Infastructure, nuclear facilities, and command centers. Neither we or the Israelis have any desire to try and occupy Iran. As things stand now in Iran, a major blow to their oil production facilities, along with the destruction of their power grid would cause a great deal of instability, couple this with the distruction of military command and control centers and military hardware, and a public in the dark, you are well on your way to creating the enviroment for a revolution.

Originally posted by KritikalMass
how many wars can the u.s fight at a time??? how many fronts can you fight on??? how many ignorant rednecks and ghetto thugs do you have over there to fill up your f'n armies??? it would be better for the world if america was a smoking crater.

There is no arguing with that line of reasoning. That quote above is the very essence of my rebuttle,

Kritkalmass: your response is the defining reason Iran cannot have the bomb and that Israel, and the US must do everything in their power to assure that they dont. You cannot negotiate with people who hold the this kind of gestalt. They must be delt with without pity or remorese. It is time once again for the world to remember just what war really is like.

Originally posted by Phedreus
reply to post by Sir Solomon
... As things stand now in Iran, a major blow to their oil production facilities, along with the destruction of their power grid would cause a great deal of instability, couple this with the distruction of military command and control centers and military hardware, and a public in the dark, you are well on your way to creating the enviroment for a revolution.

It would do the opposite. It would intensify hatred for Israel (and the U.S.). And Iran would redouble its effort in making the bomb.

Same kind of argument put forth for the bombing of North Vietnam. The U.S. drop over 7 million tons of bombs in Vietnam, and still lost the war.

reply to post by coolieno99


first let us put to rest the nam anology. The bombing campaign was quite successful.
cite: Operation Linebacker II
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


By the eleventh and final day (29 December), there were few strategic targets worthy of mention left within North Vietnam. There were, however, two SAM storage areas at Phuc Yen and the Lang Dang yards that could be profitably attacked. A total of 60 aircraft again made the trip north, but the mix was altered. U-Tapao again provided 30 D models, but the Andersen force was varied, putting 12 G models and 18 Ds over the north. Total bombing was rounded out by sending 30 G models on Arclight missions in southern panhandle of North Vietnam and in South Vietnam.[55] Once again, there were no aircraft losses to anti-aircraft fire, MiGs, or missiles.
On 22 December, Washington asked Hanoi to return to the talks with the terms offered in October.[56] On 26 December, Hanoi notified Washington that it was willing to "impress upon Nixon that the bombing was not the reason for this decision, the VWP Politburo told Nixon that halting the bombing was not a precondition for further talks."[57] Nixon replied that he wanted the technical discussions to resume on 2 January and that he would halt the bombing if Hanoi agreed. They did so and Nixon suspended aerial operations north of the 20th parallel on 29 December. He then informed Kissinger to accept the terms offered in October, if that was what it took to get the agreement signed.[58] Senator Henry Jackson (D, Wash.), tried to persuade Nixon to make a televised address in order to explain to the American people that "we bombed them in order to get them back to the table."[59] It would, however, have been extremely difficult to get informed observers in the U.S. to believe that he "had bombed Hanoi in order to force North Vietnamese acceptance of terms they had already agreed to."[59]




The bombings were successful and had hurt the north, however once again politics overrode sound military doctrine and the strikes were called off.


A strategic bombing campaign coupled with Special Forces operations within Iran are the means to eliminating the threat Iran now poses. People tend to forget the vast infrastructure required to equip, support and maintain a nuclear weapons program. Just ask the Russians. Likewise in countries like Iran, attacks on military command and control centers have a multiplying affect. Even with dispersal of these centers, command decisions are still tightly controlled within the militaries of these countries, and lower echelon officers are not willing to step into the void. Iran is a true case of cut off the head and kill the body.
While Iran has plenty of oil; it barely has refining capacity to keep up with government and military needs, importing a good percentage of their gasoline, lubricants, and other refined products. Couple this with limited and concentrated storage capacity, and even without hitting the oil production facilities you have effectively limited their ability to mount a prolonged action.
Both Israel and the US know that occupying Iran would be a losing proposition. Neither have any plans of doing so. The destruction of as much of Iran’s military equipment as possible, the destruction of as much of the nuclear programs infrastructure as can be found, along with all the above can be done, and be successful, using only missile and air strikes combined with limited special forces ground forces. Besides Israel is going to need all its ground troops to fight the ground war it will have to fight against Hezbollah, Gaza, the West Bank, and Syria.


[edit on 6/26/2010 by Phedreus]

[edit on 6/26/2010 by Phedreus]

Originally posted by Phedreus

Originally posted by Maiden PEI
Hi,


I've always wondered . . . why is it alright for other countries . . .

especially the US & Israel . . . to have not only nukes, but LOTS of

nukes . . . & not ok for Iran to have ANY?


Seems kinda skewed to me.

I am really getting tired of this comment. Anyone with a modicum of sense knows why Iran cannot be allowed to have nuclear arms. Those that truly cant tell the difference, are those whose reasoning is not to be trusted.

Between Christian psychopaths in the White House, and Jewish psychopaths in the Knesset, no, I personally do not see much of a difference in having Islamic psychopaths in the Iranian government with nuclear weapons.

I hope you're not basing your anti-Iran sentiment on the proven-lie that Ahmadinejad ever threatened Israel militarily or denied the holocaust, like so many other Zionists.

Originally posted by Phedreus

Originally posted by Maiden PEI
Hi,


I've always wondered . . . why is it alright for other countries . . .

especially the US & Israel . . . to have not only nukes, but LOTS of

nukes . . . & not ok for Iran to have ANY?


Seems kinda skewed to me.

I am really getting tired of this comment. Anyone with a modicum of sense knows why Iran cannot be allowed to have nuclear arms. Those that truly cant tell the difference, are those whose reasoning is not to be trusted.

Oh hai i noticed that you didn't actually answer the question just went on a miniture rant you want to answer it now or just spew ad-hominems?

Why can't we, the people, get our troops back home and away from this mess? Where is our voice? Shouldn't we be told why we have people over there and what is going on. Admittingly, we'll be fed a bunch of crap, but the first step is to get our government to talk about this. I haven't heard any reasons or explanations, someone can point me in the direction if there have been some.

It's just my government furthering their own agenda without apologies and without further human rights. It's scary.

Originally posted by getreadyalready
reply to post by Sir Solomon

 

wonder if any of their equipment can track stealth fighters. Didn't the Russians say their S-300 could do that? That sale got dropped though so I doubt Iran will have that ace to play.

When it comes to the F-22, we can't even detect it!! They certainly do not have any way of tracking our F-22, B-2, and F-117A's.

However, they will likely do what Iraq did in 1991 and just put up a wall of shrapnel that is impossible to fly through. We can fly over it for the most part, but not through it.

Therefore a first strike has to be highly coordinated with our low level stealth fighters getting in undetected first. Followed by higher level B-2 type stealth craft. And that would be followed by Cruise missile and long range strikes. AFter that first barrage is over, we can continue with sporadic surprise strikes.

In my opinion, all the troop build up and test runs and public announcement of assets are a decoy for our special forces already on the ground inside Iran eroding the governments power. I highly doubt we would strike from Azerb or from Saudi Arabia or Turkey. It is too obvious and they have surely put up defenses for that scenario. I say any strikes would now likely come from Iraq, Afghan, and Israel. Or maybe there is a totally secret possibility that we have all missed? These guys are very good at their jobs, so anything is possible!

Once again you are thinking stealth is a magic invisible bullet. It is not. It makes the radar range less effective. And it only works for a set spread across the electromagnetic spectrum. All the russians have to do is increase power and use multiple radars across different spectrums. Did you know that the UHF, VHF old style radars can detect stealth very easily? Did they not teach you that. F-22 can be detected. Even if it shows up as the size of a bumblee, when was the last time you saw a bee moving at 1500 mph+

reply to post by THE_PROFESSIONAL


Hmm...I'd like to learn more about this if you have any available material. Right now my level of knowledge is pretty much at the same level as any normal person, but I know it can be defeated in some situations. I've never heard of these events with UHF/VHF or tracking via disruptions.

My thought right now with stealth is that you would use it during a swarming of the air defense network with everything from F-15's to Tomahawks. The air-defense system would be so crowded that you could slip in some small, 1500+mph specks to wreak some havoc behind enemy lines or to blow holes in the air defenses.

Originally posted by Sir Solomon
reply to post by THE_PROFESSIONAL

 

Hmm...I'd like to learn more about this if you have any available material. Right now my level of knowledge is pretty much at the same level as any normal person, but I know it can be defeated in some situations. I've never heard of these events with UHF/VHF or tracking via disruptions.

My thought right now with stealth is that you would use it during a swarming of the air defense network with everything from F-15's to Tomahawks. The air-defense system would be so crowded that you could slip in some small, 1500+mph specks to wreak some havoc behind enemy lines or to blow holes in the air defenses.

Of course. There is an excellent write up about Low band Surveillance Radars here.

www.ausairpower.net...

The thing is surveillance radars cannot be used to track and lock on to targets. They identify the general vicinity of target and a tracking radar turns to that direction, increase transmit power...and voila, the invisible stealth target is visible.

Not only that a SAM system is just not one unit defending against a squadron. It is a network of systems. Long range threats are attacked using s-300/400 systems while the SAM system itself is protected by units such as ror m-1 and m2. Even if multiple fighters and bombers get through and release which is a very viable possibility the terminal defense system of tors and other sam systems defends the main SAM system.

A JDAM or a missle is not a very stealthy target and it will be engaged by the tor systems and rendered useless. But many will get through and destroy the sam. The same is true for an aegis ship, launch a barrage of missles at it and some will get through and saturate the Aegis ship and destroy it.

Most stealth design features are intended to scatter incoming illumination in a controlled fashion, evidenced by the use of edge alignment, faceting and other geometrical shaping features, supplemented by the use of absorbent materials. All of these techniques are intended to defeat radars operating in the geometrical optics and less frequently, resonance regimes of scattering. The precondition for this to work is that the wavelength be much shorter than the cardinal dimensions of the shaping feature of interest. An edge aligned engine inlet of typical dimensions will perform best in the centimetric Ku- and X-bands, and less so with increasing radar wavelength.

The Russian approach has been to invest in the further development of low band radars, especially operating in the VHF band. With wavelengths of the order of a metre or more, only very large stealth aircraft (e.g. B-2A) satisfy the physics requirement for geometrical optics regime scattering. A fighter sized aircraft such as the JSF will see most of its carefully designed shaping features fall into the resonance or Raleigh scattering regions, where shaping is of little or no import, and skin depth penetration of the induced electrical surface currents defeats most absorbent coatings or laminates

Russian industry is very actively marketing digital upgrades to the P-18 Spoon Rest, and new production digital 55Zh6 Nebo UE / Tall Rack and Nebo SVU VHF radars, specifically as a "Counter-Stealth" capability.

While the JSF is frequently criticised for the limitations of its stealth capability in the mid and upper microwave bands, the compact size of this aircraft makes it highly susceptible to detection by low band radars, unlike larger aircraft such as the B-2A Spirit (US Air Force)

The fully digital Nebo SVU is a solid state VHF band surveillance radar intended for the detection of airborne and ballistic targets. These include tactical and bomber aircraft, and low altitude and stealth aircraft targets.

NNIIRT's Barrier E is a low power bistatic radar system intended to provide tripwire early warning against low signature targets at low to medium altitudes. It is analogous in some respects to the US Silent Sentry, but quite unique in implementation.

I have some of my own info, I think somwhere...dont know where about radar that I can post later..

Edit: found something in one of my books...



[edit on 27-6-2010 by THE_PROFESSIONAL]

Originally posted by BASSPLYR
I have to disagree with the statement that nobody can detect the stealth. turns out the serbians were pretty good at tracking the stealth. what they did was simply noticed that right before a stealth bombed something all the TV's and radios in the area got disturbed. track and chart the time and disturbations of the tv's and it makes a neat path. thats how they figured out where out strealths were coming from and the paths they took. You can shoot down stealth. it's detectable.

Pentagon now officially confirmed that the F-117A was tracked by an unidentified ground radar and that two SAMs were fired at the aircraft. First reports suggested that the F-117A might have been tracked by a Czech-made Tamara passive radar - three passive receivers, each mounted a truck. Yugoslavia operates such radars in a somewhat modified form. However, latest information suggest that the F-117A was tracked by an old Soviet radar - a mid-1950s radar operating in 165-190cm wavelength range. According to American aircraft designers and military, long-wave radars present a serious threat to stealth aircraft operated by the US.

www.456fis.org...

They just used an older, low frequency radar system deployed in a phased array.


[edit on 6/27/2010 by clay2 baraka]

Originally posted by Phedreus
I am really getting tired of this comment. Anyone with a modicum of sense knows why Iran cannot be allowed to have nuclear arms. Those that truly cant tell the difference, are those whose reasoning is not to be trusted.

most people are getting tired of the whole Irans after nuclear weapons, they are evil, they will do this, i will get my mummmy on you because you dont think Iran is evil,

those with reasoning arent as flawed as you

lets go over some past statements

Iran hasnt been proven to be going after nukes or have any nukes

Israel does have nukes and has passed them onto others, known country south africa.

Iran hasnt invaded (directly) or started a war with anyone in decades (more then that)

the US (5 now?) and all lost causes

israel 2? and mostly targeting civilians

i know, Iran arms terrorists?
if Hamas or hezbullah wasnt fighting israel i wouldnt be supprised if the US didnt fund them like the other groups it funds or funded and what did they label those groups it armed, thats right freedom fighters. (came back to bite the US in the right side didnt it?)

anyhow to keep my response to you short, get over it and stop watching FOx news, it kills brain cells.


and on topic,

Saudi royals would get their asses handed to them on a silver platter if they let this happen.

also it would be great seeing Israel wiped out along with Iran,
less bitching in the middle east, americans would love it as it would kill the jewish lobby group in the US and most likely a nice tax cut as they wont have to spend those billions to Israel

also we can use Israel and Iran as nice solar farms

reply to post by THE_PROFESSIONAL


You are right to a certain extent. I don't think that stealth is some magic bullet, but I have read that in the testing phases, one F22 was able to decimate top fighter pilots and fire kill shots 5 to 1 without ever being a blip on anybodies radar! Supposedly, the one time that it was detected was upon exit after eliminating its target. So, the stealth, the advanced target detection, the multiple target tracking, etc. etc.

So, it may not be a magic bullet, but if it is a 500% improvement over what is already the top air military in the world, then it is pretty much unstoppable. I would say 20 of these F22's could decimate the entire air defense of any other country in the world, and then you add in B2, F117, and cruise missiles fired from the sea? Nobody has an answer for that!

Originally posted by Son of Will

Originally posted by Phedreus

Originally posted by Maiden PEI
Hi,


I've always wondered . . . why is it alright for other countries . . .

especially the US & Israel . . . to have not only nukes, but LOTS of

nukes . . . & not ok for Iran to have ANY?


Seems kinda skewed to me.

I am really getting tired of this comment. Anyone with a modicum of sense knows why Iran cannot be allowed to have nuclear arms. Those that truly cant tell the difference, are those whose reasoning is not to be trusted.

Between Christian psychopaths in the White House, and Jewish psychopaths in the Knesset, no, I personally do not see much of a difference in having Islamic psychopaths in the Iranian government with nuclear weapons.

I hope you're not basing your anti-Iran sentiment on the proven-lie that Ahmadinejad ever threatened Israel militarily or denied the holocaust, like so many other Zionists.

You obviously have drunk deeply of the mad mullah kool-aid. Waste of time and thought to discuss a thousand years of killing, mothers praising their suicide bomber sons, 6 year old suicide bombers, honor killings. Just a waste of time to tell you how controlled your thoughts really are.

Originally posted by Son of Will

Originally posted by Phedreus

Originally posted by Maiden PEI
Hi,


I've always wondered . . . why is it alright for other countries . . .

especially the US & Israel . . . to have not only nukes, but LOTS of

nukes . . . & not ok for Iran to have ANY?


Seems kinda skewed to me.

I am really getting tired of this comment. Anyone with a modicum of sense knows why Iran cannot be allowed to have nuclear arms. Those that truly cant tell the difference, are those whose reasoning is not to be trusted.

Between Christian psychopaths in the White House, and Jewish psychopaths in the Knesset, no, I personally do not see much of a difference in having Islamic psychopaths in the Iranian government with nuclear weapons.

I hope you're not basing your anti-Iran sentiment on the proven-lie that Ahmadinejad ever threatened Israel militarily or denied the holocaust, like so many other Zionists.

my statement and your answer speak for themselves.
as for Anti Iran sentiment, no sentiment is involved. They are a dangerous theocracy, with a track record to prove it. They have shown they cannot be trusted. these are not based on sentiment but simple reasoning.

Originally posted by illusive man

Originally posted by Phedreus
I am really getting tired of this comment. Anyone with a modicum of sense knows why Iran cannot be allowed to have nuclear arms. Those that truly cant tell the difference, are those whose reasoning is not to be trusted.

most people are getting tired of the whole Irans after nuclear weapons, they are evil, they will do this, i will get my mummmy on you because you dont think Iran is evil,

those with reasoning arent as flawed as you

lets go over some past statements

Iran hasnt been proven to be going after nukes or have any nukes

Israel does have nukes and has passed them onto others, known country south africa.

Iran hasnt invaded (directly) or started a war with anyone in decades (more then that)

the US (5 now?) and all lost causes

israel 2? and mostly targeting civilians

i know, Iran arms terrorists?
if Hamas or hezbullah wasnt fighting israel i wouldnt be supprised if the US didnt fund them like the other groups it funds or funded and what did they label those groups it armed, thats right freedom fighters. (came back to bite the US in the right side didnt it?)

anyhow to keep my response to you short, get over it and stop watching FOx news, it kills brain cells.


and on topic,

Saudi royals would get their asses handed to them on a silver platter if they let this happen.

also it would be great seeing Israel wiped out along with Iran,
less bitching in the middle east, americans would love it as it would kill the jewish lobby group in the US and most likely a nice tax cut as they wont have to spend those billions to Israel

also we can use Israel and Iran as nice solar farms

I guess french, german, british, US, intel services, along with the UN (ok so maybe adding the UN wasnt so smart) could be wrong about these things, but looking at the evidence, I think most people would agree that Iran is trying as hard as it can to produce a nuclear weapon.
Israel has never started a major war( at least not yet.)

Iran is funding terrorist cells, Hamas and hezbullah. Most of the countries in the middle east secretly fear a nuclear Iran, and want desperately for the US or Israel to keep them from getting them.

Iran is a 19th century nation, with 21st century technology, and a 17th century based theocratic,despotic, governemt. not a good mix.



[edit on 6/27/2010 by Phedreus]