Why a ban on guns would never work.

reply to post by The Theorist


You need guns to keep the government in check. If that was the case would they not just ban the guns to prevent you from doing that. And are guns really going to make any difference. No they’re not

Originally posted by The Theorist
There are too many people like me, who would rather die, than give up their guns.

I can live with all you people gone, to be honest. I might so far as to call that evolution.

If all the idiots who would rather posses power than peace and freedom were removed from the gene pool, we might have a chance of living out the century. [snip]

EDIT: And knowledge doesn't require action, knowing how to make a gun doesn't mean you have to go out and make one.

If I had my way, anyone found in possession of a gun should be charged with possession of a weapon with intent to kill. People get charged with intent to supply for drugs.

[edit on 21/6/10 by pieman]




Mod Note: General ATS Discussion Etiquette – Please Review This Link.

[edit on 21-6-2010 by 12m8keall2c]

reply to post by vor78


Finally a point i can agree with. Yes ok for some people guns hold some sentimental value, but who do you know that has a browning 9mm that has been handed down through the generations. Your second point is very good i cant really argue against it rather than to say that by banning guns you are limiting the arsenal available to criminals to carry out their crimes. Also Knife crime may be a problem but i would rather have a knife problem, than a gun problem.

new ATS thread

doesn't matter WHO has the guns or who supposedly has the upper hand

PEOPLE are needlessly killed
not enough time to think
too much pressure to act - in just a split second

and then it is over.

more sad stories and victims:

innocence

27

murky details

50 caliber wedding

prime example of what can go wrong just holding a gun!

4 cops must subdue a teenager with bullets?!?!?!!

in all of those cases, it was the GUN that made the difference between life or death!

true, it was people who made the decisions but the choices would have been a lot different without the gun involved, at all!
and no one would have gotten shot and no one would have died.

it wasn't the criminals, either, for the most part, in those examples.
i didn't pick and choose, either - i just did an ATS search for "shot" and posted the first hits that were about a shooting, with a gun.

reply to post by pieman


The feeling is mutual. I could live with people like you gone. That is what I would happily call evolution.

I'm not going to stoop down to your level and personally attack you for your beliefs, even though I consider your comment about people like me going to hell very offensive.

I was raised in a country where ALL beliefs and ALL opinions are to be respected, even those we strongly disagree with. I may not agree with what you just said, and the way you said it, but I would happily die to defend your right to say it.

You live in Ireland. I live in the United States. We both have different cultural values. I won't judge you, and I would ask that you offer the same restraint.

reply to post by BlastedCaddy


What's a moderator closed post? You mean your response violated T&Cs?

Sorry, but even if I agree with you, this thread seems little more than spam.

This will be my last response. I guess I am a bit of a realist. Guns will always be here regardless of who says what. So therefore I feel the need to own them.

reply to post by pieman


That is a very good point, if you get found with drugs you get charged for intent to supply. If anyone is walking about with a gun the only logical reason is that they intend to cause another person extreme harm and they should be charged with doing so if there is evidence to do so.

Click here for more information.

reply to post by kevinunknown


Its not just about sentimental value. In many areas of the country, including where I live in the rural south, firearms are a cultural issue as well. Gun control is viewed as an attack on hunting, self-sufficiency and the traditional way of life. That's one of the reasons you see such a hostile response to the issue. In that sense, there's a gigantic difference in the views on firearms between much of America and in the UK and the rest of Europe. Myself, I grew up around firearms and have known how to use one from an early age. To me, its just another tool; granted, one that can be quite dangerous if used inappropriately. My experience is one that is far from uncommon in this country.

Again, I think this is one of those areas where we have to understand the differences in attitudes and cultures of our societies. For my part, I can respect the fact that the UK has its restrictions on firearms. I don't agree with it, but its your country, not mine. I don't get the UK monarchy thing, either, but again, its your country.

reply to post by vor78


I hate the monarchy thing don’t worry. Interestingly our gun laws enable people like yourself who need guns for their jobs and hunting it’s hard to get a licence but as long as you have a respectable past you could get one under out law. So if American was to clone uk gun laws (which I am not arguing for) then people like you would probably not be affected in the long term.

Allow me to put it another way, gun lovers seem happy to let children die for their ability to access the easy power fire arms offer. I feel that this level of stupidity and irresponsibility deserves very little respect. The contempt with which I hold excuses about rights and freedoms has no bounds. I believe the main reason for gun ownership is to allow the impotent to feel powerful.

The continued "right to bear arms" is a disgusting and abhorrent strangulation of the basic rights and freedoms of all right thinking people.

The most disgusting aspect of it is that those who would claim to value democracy make threat of force before allowing democratic debate and referendum on the subject.

Originally posted by pieman

Originally posted by The Theorist
There are too many people like me, who would rather die, than give up their guns.

I can live with all you people gone, to be honest. I might so far as to call that evolution.

If all the idiots who would rather posses power than peace and freedom were removed from the gene pool, we might have a chance of living out the century. Screw you people, you can all go to hell.

EDIT: And knowledge doesn't require action, knowing how to make a gun doesn't mean you have to go out and make one.

If I had my way, anyone found in possession of a gun should be charged with possession of a weapon with intent to kill. People get charged with intent to supply for drugs.

[edit on 21/6/10 by pieman]

On behalf of gun owners, I would like to thank you for not possessing a gun. Your range and instability would surly lead to unnecessary actions.

But I will also argue that stupid, insane, and evil people don't own guns!
But that is your choice, so don't try to make a choice for me.

You also associate two words together that don't necessarily come about without resistance and a fight ("peace and freedom"). I personally believe that most gun owners have "peace and freedom" in mind. History has proved guns to secure both from tyranny. The time may be limited, but thats why guns are still made and sold in record numbers. You have been sold an impossible utopia based on a lie. Historically crime, violence, and death or inevitable in your future. I can think of worse ways to die other than by a bullet. (Maybe cowering in a corner to tyranny with no means to resist) Ask the disarmed slaves for Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, and, and Mao if they enjoyed being disarmed.
As we all know, history has a way of repeating itself...


"There is no doubt in my mind that millions of lives could have been saved if the people were not 'brainwashed' about gun ownership and had been well armed. Hitler's thugs and goons were not very brave when con-fronted by a gun. Gun haters always want to forget the Warsaw Ghetto uprising, which is a perfect example of how a ragtag, half starved group of Jews took up 10 handguns and made asses out of the Nazis."
- Theodore Haas,
survivor of Dachau

reply to post by pieman


Pieman,

My wife is pregnant. We're going to have our first child, soon. You're mistaken to throw us all into the 'let children die' category. I value human life. There is nothing, absolutely nothing, more precious in this world than life.

I believe in freedom. Freedom to say what I want. Freedom to believe in what I want. I'm very liberal in that regard.

You're not in the United States. I don't know what kind of 'international' news you read, nor what you know about America's history. I don't expect you to understand the way I, or the way many American's, think. Truth be told, I can't understand your thinking, either. Not completely, anyway. I assure you though that I am trying to.

I strongly believe that unless American's are armed, our Government will begin stripping away our rights. More so than they are already doing. 'Freedom of Speech' would go out the window very quickly. The only way to protect our way of life, and to assure that this country never becomes the next Nazi Germany, is in my opinion, for us to be armed.

I would only use my weapon in self-defense, in whatever form that it may take. I would never go out and shoot someone out of anger. I am a law-abiding citizen.

Look at the UK, Britain specifically. You need only look there for the true sense of 'Big Brother'. Look at Australia. They practically made every gun illegal. Now look at them. They are moving towards a 'controlled' society. Internet filtering, internet monitoring, cracking down in dissidents, etc.

I will never give up my right to bare arms. I will never give it up, because I truly believe that without it, we'll lose control of our Government. Absolute power corrupts, absolutely.



[edit on 21-6-2010 by The Theorist]

Originally posted by pieman
Allow me to put it another way, gun lovers seem happy to let children die for their ability to access the easy power fire arms offer. I feel that this level of stupidity and irresponsibility deserves very little respect. The contempt with which I hold excuses about rights and freedoms has no bounds. I believe the main reason for gun ownership is to allow the impotent to feel powerful.

The continued "right to bear arms" is a disgusting and abhorrent strangulation of the basic rights and freedoms of all right thinking people.

The most disgusting aspect of it is that those who would claim to value democracy make threat of force before allowing democratic debate and referendum on the subject.

That is why you teach children about firearms and remove the stupid Hollywood hype and baseless fear-mongering.

I can't help but notice a trend of argument against firearms, yet they support something that kills more people, Drugs.

reply to post by kevinunknown


True, UK law does have some firearm provisions, but it wouldn't work here. Although hunting is a significant part of the self-sufficiency argument, its definitely not all of it. The restriction itself would be viewed as an attack on their culture.

Most of this is due to the isolation of much of America's heartland until just the last few decades. For generations, America's heartland has largely been a collection of rural communities with little outside influence, where independence and self-sufficiency have become highly valued traits. That's changing slowly in the modern, post WW2 era, but generally speaking, rural America still doesn't like to be told what to do, especially when they don't think they're doing anything wrong. In this case, they've been using firearms since their territories were first settled, and even to this day, rural violent crime rates are generally very low. They don't see a valid reason why their rights should be restricted. In fact, many of them see it as the first wave in an attempt by the government to strip them of the self-sufficiency they so highly value and to destroy the way of life they've cherished for generations. In that sense, its not just about firearms to many Americans, but about preserving their overall culture.






[edit on 21-6-2010 by vor78]

Originally posted by jeh2324
Your range and instability would surly lead to unnecessary actions.

How many dead innocents does it require before you believe my rage is a stable and sane response?

But that is your choice, so don't try to make a choice for me.

If I had a way to ensure that your guns could only be used to kill you, then fine. What choice does the victim of a shooting have? If your choices are resticted to you personally, I have no word to say about what you do but guns are used to take someone else's life without them having a choice.

You also associate two words together that don't necessarily come about without resistance and a fight ("peace and freedom").

I'm brave enough to fight with only my body and mind, I have no need of a long range weapon.

Historically crime, violence, and death or inevitable in your future. I can think of worse ways to die other than by a bullet. (Maybe cowering in a corner to tyranny with no means to resist)

There is always a means to resist. Power is given, it cannot be taken. Resistance is as simple a refusing to cower, that's bravery. On the other hand, a defensive weapon is cowardly by definition.

[edit on 21/6/10 by pieman]

reply to post by pieman

The continued "right to bear arms" is a disgusting and abhorrent strangulation of the basic rights and freedoms of all right thinking people.

Tell me how you really feel...

Y'know, I grew up around, and using rifles, shotguns, and to a lesser extent, handguns my entire life (I'll be 48 in October). I've saved a life with them, weren't nothing big, shot a rattlesnake that was camped out by my Uncles door. The first one out that morning would, in all likelihood, have been bitten. I used my hunting rifle and shot its head off. To say the reaction of the folks inside to that shot right outside the door was somewhat funny would be an understatement...

Yes, lives are taken by guns, and that's a bad thing. On that we agree. However, lives are saved by their use as well. Probably a lot more than are taken. So instead of linking to all the stories that are supposed to prove how bad guns are...try instead to give a balanced perspective.

Guns are tools, nothing more, nothing less. Like any tool, dangerous to the user and those around him if used in a fashion not intended.

...as for your cowboy remark? You'll have to come up with something a bit better to call me than that. I'm the grandson, and proudly so, of just such a man. I'm the great-great grandson of a mountain man/fur trapper...amongst the first whitemen to come west of the Rockies waaaay back in the day, around 1830 or so.

Guns, and their accouterments, are part of my heritage. I will not willingly give them up.

reply to post by seagull


I just added you to my ATS friends & gave your post a star. I agree with you 100%. One of the best replies to this thread so far.

I guess that saving a life with a gun is an inconvenient truth...