The Not Very Near Death Experience

Have you noticed that an implausible number of ATS members claim to have had near-death experiences? I have. All over the site, but particularly in this sub-forum, people are forever banging on about watching themselves on the operating table, chatting with deceased friends and relatives, 'moving toward the light' and all the other plot elements of the standard NDE experience.

I don't believe in life after death, so NDEs to me are essentially hallucinations. It is well known that people's dreams and hallucinations are related to their beliefs and desires as well as to their waking lives, so it is not improbable that an NDE believer (or 'wannabeliever') will hallucinate such an experience without ever coming near death at all. If this were found to be the case, the credibility of NDE claims in general is also impugned, because it would suggest that other claimed NDEs are also hallucinations, as I believe to be the case.

And indeed, this is what we find.

've just discovered this fantastic 1990 study from The Lancet that investigated near death experiences reported by patients. However, it did something quite different from most other studies - it actually checked to see whether the patients were actually near death or not - and many of them weren't.

The study looked at the experiences of 58 people who believed they were about to die during a medical procedure and had subsequently reported a 'near death experience' - often the classic 'light at the end of the tunnel' experience, the feeling of the consciousness had left the body like an outside observer, enhanced clarity of thought and the flashback of life's memories.

The researchers then looked through the medical records of each person to see whether they had really been 'near death'. Of the 58 in the study, 30 patients were never in danger of dying, despite what they thought at the time. - Mind Hacks

Link to original paper, as published in The Lancet

People who weren't anywhere near death having near-death experiences. Devoutly religious or 'spiritual' souls to a man or woman no doubt, all furiously telling themselves and everyone else within earshot complete porkies.

Well, at least it reinformces my belief in human nature.

I think the general consensus is that near-death-experiences (NDEs) are a specific type of out-of-body-experience (OBEs). The general phenomenon is the OBE, and you don't need to be near death to experience one. I'm guessing the believers camp would argue that the extreme anguish of "thinking" you were about to die could probably initiate an OBE.

I hear ya, though. The brain is so vastly complex, and there is still so much we don't know about what drives our self-awareness. Clearly the brain's imagination is capable of generating a reality that very accurately mimics the real world.

Some people claim they can induce OBEs at will. Astral traveling sort of thing. If that's true, I find the lack of evidence for it troubling. It seems like it would be a simple task to prove it. Isolate a subject from a random object known only to the researcher, and have them leave their bodies to identify the object.

I've heard of studies done, but clearly they either showed negative results, or weren't acknowledged by the scientific community for whatever reason.

What about blind people who can see, people who witness things hundreds of miles away, or cases like Pam Reynolds? If you've already concluded that NDEs are hallucinations nothing can convince you otherwise.

Remember: there is no water in any other part of the universe.

Earth is the only planet with life in this vast universe.

GIVE ME A BREAK !!!

reply to post by Astyanax


Well there will be one way/time when you see if your belief is right when you die yourself.

Bit late to change that belief then eh?

There are many proven facts, records, and information provided by thousands if not tens of thousands of those who have actually been medically dead, and reported information from distant geographical locations, and infomration that was impossible to know.

So for the small sample that the Lancet reported a huge one that is proven does exist, cross cultures, throughout history and documented.

If you think your life now is anything more than an hullucination, like all of ours is anyhow well therien lies the crux of your position and reasoning.

Kind Regards,

Elf

reply to post by MischeviousElf


Impossible to know? No. Unfathomable to most peoples conscious mind? Yes.

It's not that difficult to understand.

The claim about people having experiences after being brain-dead is super easy. They dreamed before death, then woke back up thinking they were just in that dream.

As for all the miraculous reconstructions by people, it's just the subconscious mind. It's incredibly powerful, and picks up a whole lot more than the conscious mind. I'd guess that many times, it's picking up information from other peoples body language in ways we can't even begin to understand, yet experience as these NDE's.

[edit on 18-6-2010 by unityemissions]

Originally posted by facedo
Remember: there is no water in any other part of the universe.

Earth is the only planet with life in this vast universe.

GIVE ME A BREAK !!!

Errrmm what? Water? What's that got to do with NDE's? - And also of course there is water else where, heck the water on Earth did come from else where in the first place -

Originally posted by unityemissions
reply to post by Now_Then

 

He's saying that previously established beliefs do change over time.

Oh ok, I get it now, - Mind you it was a little odd - And we still have not confirmed life on other planets.... Ok makes sense I suppose.



Anyway regarding NDE's, I gotta say I haven't noticed all that many grand descriptions of personal NDE's - maybe I just missed them, the topic is discussed, but mostly in a 3rd party sense.

But mind you life after death, really that depends on how exactly you define all sorts of things, not least our position in reality, the universe, what exactly life is and where our sentience lies - heck you could even throw the nature of time into the mix! - (we perceive it as linear, what if it's not? Then of course you could be both alive and dead, existing and yet to exist all at the very same time! lol).

Any way from a medical point of view there is growing evidence that NDE's are a real phenomena - all be it the massive cascade of electo/chemical activity in the death throws of a dieing mind - is there more to that? No idea.

[edit on 18/6/2010 by Now_Then]

[edit on 18/6/2010 by Now_Then]

reply to post by Now_Then


He's saying that previously established beliefs do change over time.

reply to post by Son of Will

I think the general consensus is that near-death-experiences (NDEs) are a specific type of out-of-body-experience (OBEs). The general phenomenon is the OBE, and you don't need to be near death to experience one. I'm guessing the believers camp would argue that the extreme anguish of "thinking" you were about to die could probably initiate an OBE.

But the NDE is commonly cited by believers as evidence of life after death. See, for example, the post by Mischievous Elf above. If what you are saying is true, then NDEs cannot tell us anything about life after death, not even whether it exists; they're just an uncommon but not atypical reaction to extreme, life-threatening stress.

Many of us who've been in non-fatal but life-threatening accidents and similar situations have had the experience of feeling time seeming to move more slowly as our perceptions and responses speed up in response to the stresses of the situation. The so-called out-of-body experience may be caused by another such reaction.

Certainly it is no proof of life after death.

*

Originally posted by Now_Then
Anyway regarding NDE's, I gotta say I haven't noticed all that many grand descriptions of personal NDE's - maybe I just missed them, the topic is discussed, but mostly in a 3rd party sense.

You're right, there haven't been that many elaborate testimonies. However, I've read dozens of posts from different members reporting that they'd had OBEs. The claim is usually made by someone trying to prove the existence of life after death, 'other worlds' of the transcendental or transdimensional kind, etc.

From a medical point of view there is growing evidence that NDE's are a real phenomena - all be it the massive cascade of electo/chemical activity in the death throws of a dying mind - is there more to that? No idea.

If there are physical components to the 'NDE' experience (I'm not sure if any have been proved - it's not very ethical to stick a possibly dying person's head in an MRI scanner) it would certainly support the idea that NDEs are just perceptual or cognitive side-effects of something happening to the brain.

[edit on 20/6/10 by Astyanax]

Originally posted by Astyanax
You're right, there haven't been that many elaborate testimonies. However, I've read dozens of posts from different members reporting that they'd had OBEs. The claim is usually made by someone trying to prove the existence of life after death, 'other worlds' of the transcendental or transdimensional kind, etc.

Check out the NDE of this nutcase...

Near death....anybody??

Best I got was a tunnel with a lot of darkness at the end....

Peace

Well, I've had at least one NDE, and I've written about it (a few times) here on ATS. It didn't resemble any of the typical NDE descriptions that I've ever read before.

In fact, the most remarkable thing about it was that it happened spontaneously WHEN I THOUGHT I was dying. Later, the physicians and specialists determined that I actually WASN'T near death.

Which suggests, to me, anyway, that an NDE is a voluntary reflex of a body that THINKS it is dying.

— Doc Velocity




[edit on 8/11/2010 by Doc Velocity]

reply to post by Doc Velocity

In fact, the most remarkable thing about it was that it happened spontaneously WHEN I THOUGHT I was dying. Later, the physicians and specialists determined that I actually WASN'T near death.

Your experience bears out what the article is saying, then.

My own NDE won't help here.

I had a cardiac arrest from a congenital heart defect called Wolfe-Parkinson-White syndrome when I was 18 and was without a pulse for much longer than the six minute mark.

My NDE was of being in an infinitely cold and infinitely dark place. I was calm, very lucid, aware that my heart had stopped, and able to think. I was totally unaware of what was happening around me, physically. This is slightly odd because CPR and cardioversion (the paddles) are both very painful (I have experienced both at other times) but my NDE was totally devoid of pain.

Following the arrest I was comatose for three days and, at one point, my family was told to expect brain death. I awoke completely unimpaired the next day.

Regarding this thread, I wish I had an answer which I, at least, could feel was a conclusive truth. In all honestly I think it's just as likely that my mind was responsible for my experience as it could be that I might have been in the entry stage of any sort of life after death experience.

I hope this adds to the conversation.

I was dead in '77 for 1:17 sec. I saw all the floating and stuff. Until you been there or when you go there- here is the jist of it:

Hover, above me
I see myself below, still
Arms reached out, floating
Dark hooded sentries, shuffle
Entering, safe, distant light

reply to post by Hefficide

My NDE was of being in an infinitely cold and infinitely dark place. I was calm, very lucid, aware that my heart had stopped, and able to think.

Gosh, that's not a very encouraging near-death experience. Imagine spending forever in that state.

Do you remember whether you were aware of time passing?

reply to post by Astyanax

Originally posted by Astyanax
I believe it is safe to say that no satisfactory evidence of disembodied consciousness will ever be found.
www.abovetopsecret.com...

I used to think that too. Until I had the experience myself (not near-death but OBE/remote viewing) and later it was confirmed that what I saw had really happened. Not proof of course but it did make me think twice.

I then reviewed the literature and found so many cases I think they need explaining. I still have doubts about long term survival of bodily death but there is some "paranormal" (I hate using that word) explanation for the phenomenon. I also disagree that there are no documented cases of remote viewing, as I have read some.

For me there is a case to answer...

reply to post by Astyanax


HOw do you logically explain a case like this www.youtube.com...
Watch the whole 11 minutes of the video. I need a well thought out answer please.

reply to post by Astyanax

reply to post by drerhys

I need a well thought out answer please.

In that case, would you please describe the case in your own words, or link to a text page describing it? I’m quite busy, I’m afraid, and have no time to waste watching videos.

*

reply to post by Pimander

Same reply in your case, I’m afraid, Pimander.

The trouble with anecdotal accounts of so-called near-death experiences are not very helpful because it is almost impossible to verify them. This is true whether the experience is reported by the person who claims to have undergone it, or by a third party. The example you posted on the other thread is typical of the literature: anecdotal evidence from a third party, long after the event, that cannot be possibly verified and could have other explanations even if it were true.

reply to post by Astyanax

I don't believe in life after death

So, I have to ask you....what do you think happens to you after you pass from this life? And, do you really thing, really think, that you, friend, can learn all of life's lessons, which are too many to mention, in just one short life? Of course, this comes from one of these people you say are having hallucinations. I know what i know, and you obviously have never had an NDE yourself, so in reality, you have nothing to base your supposition on do you now. And, further, I am also able to travel out and away from my human container, and have been and seen a lot of places, things, and places. I am certainly happy that I am not one of those like you who have no belief in anything after death. Enjoy your afterlife, friend.