I am a Christian dating a Muslim, and not once has she tried to kill me for my beliefs.

Religion is one of the things that separates us from each other. And yes most of these books carry words of hate and indoctrination in them. That doesn't necessarily mean that people that take the stories in the books as truth or guidelines are vile as well. One can say they are filtering the "common wisdom" from them and pretend they are being good.

Sad thing is that righteousness is in your heart or not no matter what books you read. That plus the fact that most of these books are loosely based on older scriptures or folklore makes me wonder how many people in the world are complete fools for believing such nonsense.

Let me state that the above doesn't rule out the existence of some super-being but I like to think different.

[edit on 17-6-2010 by no special characters]

reply to post by whitl103

Good point in making this thread. Your message is understood. Good to know, the younger generations do not define good and bad in people, depending on their religious beliefs.

I've been in a relationship with a Muslim. Must say that this persons "better lyrics" and "wishes", were dedicated for the Ayatollah only.
On the other hand ... pleasure by looking forward to dance on my grave. A Christian will deserve the credit for that

That said, it can not be denied that honor killing takes place. Is what you call it when it happens in the Muslim community. Christians kill as well. Really, this should be rejected, regardless of the reason. May it be pride or other. Should not be acceptable, whether it be in the name of religion or not. Actions are done by humans in any case.

Anyways...Better get yourself a super shield. You never know

Originally posted by skajkingdom

Originally posted by felonius
I dont see German women running around with body bags for "modesty"...unless they are non-germanic infiltrators.

New York and Paris arent wearing body bags.

Just lslamic countries.

So, for your information: Even BEFORE, loooooooooooooooooooooooong before Islam came to the (Middle)Eastern countries (e.g. Afghanistan, and all the "-stans" there) it was in THEIR culture for women to be veiled. Heck, in many asian countries (which were not and ARE NOT islamic), it was a shame for a woman to SPEAK at all - that was regarded as a big tabu and in some cases punishable by death.

My point was made.
In the Germanic world, women had the right of divorce if they wre mistreated. Telling a German woman to shut up? the death sentence may be reversed to the idiot that did so!

In Persia and Arabia, face covering was common ammong women long before Islam too. The Roman African Christian Tertullian, writing around 200 AD, praises the modesty of those "pagan women of Arabia" who "not only cover their head, but their whole face...preferring to enjoy half the light with one eye rather than prostituting their whole face."

He was a roman pig. Women in Rome were slightly better off than cattle. these are also the folks that thought semi-spoilt meat was a delicacy and vomitoriums were a great idea.


It all added up to their butts being handed over to them by their "Northern" neighbors a short time after Tertulian during the "Sack of Rome".

It's much easier to just classify them all with one name and throw em in a bag, isn't it?

Yet, the fact remains that the reason you see so many women in Afghanistan wearing burqas has nothing to do with islam. They would be wearing burqas even if Afghanistan happened to be christian.

Taliban are also making things "interesting" for women caught without "corrective clothing.

I can turn this around: Why are albanian women not wearing burqas? Neither muslim nor christian ones?
Because that was never in our culture.

Congratulations. Your particular bunch seems to consider women a bit better than most.

"Modesty", quoting you, as you put it in quotation marks, is something ordained in the Bible and in the Qur'an - for both men and women.

I would like to ask you: Why are there no nuns wearing mini skirts, or running around WITHOUT a head covering? Think about it.

1. I'm sorry but body bags for modesty? Really? Thats control. I cant think of a place that has ENFORCED bags that the woman cant remove them outside without risking a really bad day. I've seen and heard too many times where men "over there" talk about how "the women must wear these so we are not tempted". Self control issue I think.

2. I dont buy into the Catholic thing (at least there isnt much of an inquisition any more:@@

. As for the "nun gear"? Thats up to them if they want to wear the thing. If they leave the church, they wont be hunted down as apostates and stoned either.

[edit on 18/6/10 by felonius]

Originally posted by felonius

I do not support what Taliban did either, or did you think I do?

For crying out loud, I have the feeling I am only waisting server space here ...

Anyway, gotta go, watch football (Slovenia - USA).
And I hope USA wins.

What, did you think I hate USA


Lol.

Originally posted by skajkingdom

Originally posted by felonius

I do not support what Taliban did either, or did you think I do?

For crying out loud, I have the feeling I am only waisting server space here ...

Anyway, gotta go, watch football (Slovenia - USA).
And I hope USA wins.

What, did you think I hate USA

Lol.

Neither is going to change the others mindset. Just as well.

We do have football in common though.

Even though England has some of my Chelsea players aboard, they aren't going to make it.

France? Well, they're French. Nuf said

US? Doubt they'll get it but they'll get further than ever before!

who will win...hmmm.

DEUTSCHLAND!!!! DEUTSCHLAND!!!!DEUTSCHLAND!!!!

Originally posted by felonius

who will win...hmmm.

DEUTSCHLAND!!!! DEUTSCHLAND!!!!DEUTSCHLAND!!!!

well, my wife is german but not into football. I like to watch world cup though, it has this special flavour i should say. Germans played well, but i predicted they would lose against serbia, which they did unfortunately. I think for now though its argentina who has the best odds.

Any chance those other verses I posted have been looked in to? If they have, and it has taken this long to post, I assume it is because you are deeply contemplating them and taking it serious.

Any conclusions so far?

Originally posted by whitl103
I am a Christian dating a Muslim, and not once has she tried to kill me for my beliefs.

Not yet...
Wait until you tell her your a member at ATS.

Originally posted by ccsct203


This is sad... very sad.

If you are a "christian" then you would know that the god they worship is not the true God of the Bible.

any way you read it, it says the same

Do not be bound together with unbelievers; for what partnership have righteousness and lawlessness, or what fellowship has light with darkness?
King James Bible
Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?

American King James Version
Be you not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship has righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion has light with darkness?

American Standard Version
Be not unequally yoked with unbelievers: for what fellowship have righteousness and iniquity? or what communion hath light with darkness?

Douay-Rheims Bible
Bear not the yoke with unbelievers. For what participation hath justice with injustice? Or what fellowship hath light with darkness?

Darby Bible Translation
Be not diversely yoked with unbelievers; for what participation is there between righteousness and lawlessness? or what fellowship of light with darkness?

English Revised Version
Be not unequally yoked with unbelievers: for what fellowship have righteousness and iniquity? or what communion hath light with darkness?

Webster's Bible Translation
Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?

World English Bible
Don't be unequally yoked with unbelievers, for what fellowship have righteousness and iniquity? Or what fellowship has light with darkness?

Young's Literal Translation
Become not yoked with others -- unbelievers, for what partaking is there to righteousness and lawlessness?

[SNIP]

Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness and what communion hath light with darkness




[edit on 6/16/2010 by TheRedneck]

You have missed one key detail: You have decided to say that all Christians believe that anyone who does not call himself or herself a Christian believes in a false god. This is not true. Islam and Christianity are a part of the same historical religious tradition, and many people accept that they are all praying to the same God. That nullifies the term "unbelievers" in this case.

reply to post by whitl103


BUT...

Claiming to be a Christian and being a Christian are two separate things. Anyone worshiping a God other than Yahweh is worshiping a false god in the eyes of real Christians. And by real Christians, I mean those who actually adhere to the faith and don't just pick and choose what is convenient.

The god worshiped by Islam is actually the god of the moon, which happens to be the clan god that Muhammad worshiped as a part of his family. He believed there should only be one god and not a ton of them as were being worshiped at the kabal in Mecca, so he choose his own god as the supreme god and persecuted anyone who said otherwise.

The Qur'an even eventually says that Christians are to be persecuted until they accept religion is for Allah, their god.

Christians believe that Jesus is God, a part of the Holy Trinity. Islam rejects that claim outright, and therefor we cannot be worshiping the same god. It is a claim that the Muslims use to try and show how similar the faiths are and make conversion (reversion by their terms, as everyone starts out Muslim until they reject faith to accept something else) seem like it's not that big of a change from what they used to believe.

There is a major difference between claims and truth. Those who claim the god of Islam is the same as the God of the Christians are denying the scripture that says that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and only means to salvation. Those who make this claim and also claim to be Christian are false teachers. The Bible has plenty to say about them too.

reply to post by whitl103


I would strongly encourage you to read one of my previous posts concerning what the Qur'an has to say about unbelievers and women. If you have not yet read the Qur'an yourself, I would recommend that you do. This is an odd request perhaps, as I am a Christian myself, but you can only truly understand the religion if you have read their book.

Too often times people claim to know about Christianity or Islam and yet have never read even a significant part of their scriptures.

Best of luck in your studies.

Mykahel

reply to post by Mykahel


Hey Mykahel!

You say you've read the Quran, and studied it for some time, so I find it a bit odd that you mass-paste a huge chunk of anti-islam stuff from some hate-website. I find it even more odd that you didn't catch out the blatant inaccuracies in the pasted text.

I'm actually HOPING that it was a paste from some anti-islam website, because the alternative is much more scary: if you didn't paste it from somewhere, that means you intentionally edited the verses to mean something that they did not.

Let me give an example. Verses 190-193 from Surah 2 (which you supposedly quoted) states:

Fight in the way of Allah against those who fight against you, but begin not hostilities. Lo! Allah loveth not aggressors. And slay them wherever ye catch them, and turn them out from where they have Turned you out; for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter; but fight them not at the Sacred Mosque, unless they (first) fight you there; but if they fight you, slay them. Such is the reward of those who suppress faith. But if they cease, Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful. And fight them on until there is no more Tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah; but if they cease, Let there be no hostility except to those who practise oppression.

Now I realise that long drawn out quotes are more tiring to read than short ones edited to make a point, but the truth is the truth, and you DID mention something about false teachings.

Originally posted by Mykahel
Too often times people claim to know about Christianity or Islam and yet have never read even a significant part of their scriptures.

This, I heartily agree with! Both on the side of muslims and christians.

reply to post by babloyi


I think what we have here is simply a misunderstanding. Nothing that I posted there was a direct copy paste from an anti Islam website. I will admit that I used one as a tool for locating the verses that I already recalled reading, but did not know where to find them.

There are multiple translations of the Qur'an into English (yes, I know, any good Muslim will say that they are not translations but something else entirely, because the Qur'an is no longer the Qur'an if it is not in its original text).

In the verses I pasted, I used different translations that I felt best illustrated the point I was trying to make without being confusing. Some of the translations of the Qur'an can be as difficult to understand as the King James version of the Bible.


I stand by what I posted earlier. Regardless of some of the variations in the translation, the message is still the same. Kill off unbelievers until religion is only for Allah.

Edit: The place that I copy-pasted the text from has multiple translations available. You can check out for yourself here:
www.usc.edu...

[edit on 22-6-2010 by Mykahel]

reply to post by Mykahel

Hello again, Mykahel!

I agree, for non-arabic speakers, multiple translations always come in handy!

But again, if you notice, none of those multiple translations, are anywhere near what you quoted. For a more comprehensive tool, you could even use this: Multiple Translations (it is more of a scholarly tool rather than one for reading the Quran, but it comes in handy. You'll have to click the verses you want).

Anyhow, whatever translation you used, you will realise that none of them miss out those very important parts that were missing from what you posted. Those very important bits that completely change the meaning of the verses if excluded.

reply to post by babloyi


Greetings, and thank you for providing one of the most respectful conversations I have had concerning Islam and the Qur'an.

I noticed where my error was. I had posted that the text was from verses 191-193 of surah 2, but in fact it was only verse 191. This is a major mistake, and I readily admit that error. It was not so much an error in translation as it was me just not grabbing enough of the text. You also provided verse 190, where I started at 191. I am glad you did, as the last thing I want to do is take the verse out of context. It drives me crazy when people do that with the Bible, and I have no intention of doing so with the Qur'an.

That being said, the verse discussed does say to fight in the way of Allah against those who fight against them. It says they shouldn't begin hostilities, but at the same time, if they are being oppressed they are encouraged to take up arms. They do not need to be heavily persecuted or threatened with violence, they simply have to be oppressed.

In the context, if Muslims are not able to enforce the punishments for the different trespasses, then they would consider it oppression. If they are not able to enforce the Jizya, it would be oppression. Anything that prohibits them from establishing religion as being only for Allah would be considered oppression and would give them a reason to fight until they are the top authority. Others can choose not to believe as they do, but they have to submit to the rule of Islam and pay both the jizya as well as proclaim Allah as God and Muhammad as his prophet. You don't have to be Muslim, but you have to confess the very core belief of the faith as being true.

In the context, Muslims are not commanded to start up a war just to take land, but they are commanded to take up arms against anyone who says that they are wrong.

I may be off with this to a degree, but I think the text throughout the Qur'an gives strong support to this concept. That, along with the written traditions and records of Muhammad's actions.

[edit on 22-6-2010 by Mykahel]

reply to post by Mykahel

Hello again again, Mykahel!

I've heard the argument you are propounding before on ATS. The problem with it is that the Quran doesn't really allow for such vagueness in what is "oppression". Since you've read it, I'm sure you know it has pretty clear cut rules for what counts as oppression and what doesn't:

(From Surah 22, verses 39 and 40)
To those against whom war is made, permission is given (to fight), because they are wronged;- and verily, Allah is most powerful for their aid;-
(They are) those who have been expelled from their homes in defiance of right,- (for no cause) except that they say, "our Lord is Allah". Did not Allah check one set of people by means of another, there would surely have been pulled down monasteries, churches, synagogues, and mosques, in which the name of Allah is commemorated in abundant measure. Allah will certainly aid those who aid his (cause);- for verily Allah is full of Strength, Exalted in Might, (able to enforce His Will).

reply to post by babloyi


Good evening. Haven't been on in a while, my first little girl was just born the other day, so I've been a bit busy with bigger priorities.

I have ready the Qur'an, but admit I am not a student of it nor am I masterful at calling up surah and verse for proving a point. I am familiar with its contents and am competent enough to know how to research and look things up. I had the pleasure of taking a course on how to minister to Muslims at the college I went to, and got to spend a lot of time trying top learn about the culture and history as well, but personal readings and one college class do not make me a "knowledgeable man" about the Qur'an. Only somebody who has significant exposure to it.

You pointed out a clear-cut example of where defense is the primary reason for hostilities against other people. I am curious though if this surah and verse came after Surah 9. I know that the Qur'an is not organized chronologically, but I am not sure off the top of my head if surah 22 came before or after surah 9. This could make a significant difference.

Good evening and farewell for now, might not be able to make it back for a bit...

[edit on 24-6-2010 by Mykahel]

reply to post by Mykahel

Hello Mykahel! Congratulations!


I myself do not know the exact dates, but I believe they were both revealed around the same time. They are both Medinite surahs (although apparently verses 1-24 of Surah 22 were revealed in Mecca).
However, as far as I understand it, the whole concept of "abrogation" is completely non-scriptural. In fact, the Quran clearly states that it does no abrogation. It seems it has become a tool for people with incomplete understanding to resolve conflicts they perceive where there are none. Thankfully, the whole tradition of "abrogation this! abrogation that!" is coming to an end.
It would be useful to note, however, that even if one accepts the idea of abrogation within the Quran, it isn't necessarily based on chronology. So the deciding factor isn't always "this came later, this came earlier".

Anyhow, all that was mostly a digression by me, ranting about some peoples' obsession with abrogation. The point is, that verse in Surah 9 couldn't really cancel out the other verse, because Surah 9 still follows the same restrictions. If you read it from the start (you'll excuse me if I don't quote it all here, it is pretty long), you'll understand what is being talked about. Long story short, it speaks of a peace treaty that the Muslims made with the Meccans, which the Meccans then broke (with assistance from one of the jewish communities that lived near Medina where the muslims were). The surah then "releases" the muslims from the treaty and allows them to fight back (except in regard to those who didn't break the treaty with them, or who ask for asylum, or those who ask for another treaty).


And congratulations again! But then what on earth are you doing online here?! Go away!

[edit on 25-6-2010 by babloyi]

Well, she must be a pretty crappy Muslim then, and you must be a rather poor Christian, why haven't you slaughtered her yet? Haven't you even read Deuteronomy 13:6-10? The Bible says kill unbelievers, not date them. You must have just gotten mixed up, no worries, God will give you another chance... maybe.

Originally posted by Tetrarch42
Well, she must be a pretty crappy Muslim then, and you must be a rather poor Christian, why haven't you slaughtered her yet? Haven't you even read Deuteronomy 13:6-10? The Bible says kill unbelievers, not date them. You must have just gotten mixed up, no worries, God will give you another chance... maybe.

"Deuteronomy 13:6-10? The Bible says kill unbelievers"

Doesn't it also state, from the bible: quote: DO NOT MURDER! and Love thou neighbour, as thou self.