Bloody Sunday report states those killed were innocent

Bloody Sunday report states those killed were innocent

news.bbc.co.uk

All those killed on Bloody Sunday were innocent, the Saville Report has ruled.

Thirteen marchers were shot dead on 30 January 1972 in Londonderry when British paratroopers opened fire on crowds at a civil rights demonstration.

Fourteen others were wounded, one of whom later died.

A huge cheer erupted in Guildhall Square in Derry as Prime Minister David Cameron delivered the findings which unequivocally blamed the Army.

(visit the link for the full news article)

Which only makes me ask questions;

Were the bloody sunday murders an attempt to quell any protest at any or all civil rights?

Was this a message direct from TPTB above that civil rights were not going to be allowed for any reason?

Who gave the order to open fire on innocent people?

Mr Cameron said:

* No warning had been given to any civilians before the soldiers opened fire.

* None of the soldiers fired in response to attacks by petrol bombers or stone throwers

* Some of those killed or injured were clearly fleeing or going to help those injured or dying
* None of the casualties was posing a threat .... or doing anything that would justify their shooting
* There was no point in trying to soften or equivocate - the events of Bloody Sunday were not justified
* Many of the soldiers lied about their actions
* What happened should never, ever have happened
* Some members of the British armed forces acted wrongly
* On behalf of the government and the country, he said he was "deeply sorry".

Being deeply sorry is not enough for those who lost friends and family for standing up for their civil rights. But it gets worse as they emphasise the cost of all the years of study into this affair

195 million GB pounds...

An incredible amount of money for something that should never have happened unless it was ordered to happen in order to bring about a state of control that had not been seen before.

It has always been my opinion that this particular war was nothing more than a money earner and a training ground for new troops.

But, for once, the UK has stood up and realised its mistake.. too many years and too many lives too late though...

news.bbc.co.uk
(visit the link for the full news article)

And thats exactly the point.... By acknowlidgin their guilt they've washed their hands clean, preventing future problems while the past cannot be undone and has most certainly served its purpose... they simply got away with their wrongdoing...

sad thing is... we're only looking at the shooters, but forget the people ordering those men to shoot... or... the men ordering the men to order the men to shoot... or something like that...

[edit on 15/6/2010 by faceoff85]

reply to post by Extralien


It is only because of the current state of Ireland (ie at its most peaceful for decades , despite the efforts of some seriously terrorist factions) which means that any of this could have come to light. Previously it was the volatile nature of politics in the region which prevented the revalations which occured today. If these things had been known and admitted earlier, it would have caused more bloodshed, and more hate. I think in this one circumstance the British dealt with this correctly , although the atrocity obviously never should have happened.

I am just back from the Guildhall Square in Derry, my home is just 2minutes walking distance away.

This is a really great day for my city, I saw many people with tears in their eyes ( myself included) when we heard the relatives speak, it was wonderful after such a long period of time that they can actually clear the names of their loved ones who were previously stated as been armed with guns and bombs. The coldness of some of the soldiers, one of which shot a father as he tried to help his son who had also been shot, others shot their victims in the back as they ran for safety, others shot as they tried to crawl away, it was sick, people here have known the truth for decades, it was just getting the army to admit it that was the hard part, my father was there that day, he was only a teenager and he had to run for his life away from the army.

Bloody Sunday was a major turning point in the troubles, it turned hundreds of peaceful people who supported fighting for civil rights in a peaceful manner into IRA members, people were that infuriated at the actions of the army at a civil rights demonstration that they signed up to fight back.

I am really happy that the British government apologised for the troops actions, hopefully that particular army regiment gets stripped of whatever honors and medals that it was bestowed as a result of their duties in Derry and Northern Ireland, i hope the men who murdered those innocent people can still be held accountable for their crimes.


[edit on 15-6-2010 by Lady_Tuatha]

reply to post by Lady_Tuatha


As much as I understand your feelings your demand for revenge on those that committed the shootings quite frankly astounds me.

How many IRA, INLA, UDA, UVF, UFF etc murderers were released as a result of The Good Friday Agreement?

If those soldiers get locked up so should everyone of those terrorists, the vast majority of whom murdered people who were just as innocent as those killed on Bloody Sunday.

Yes, the truth must out, and names should be publicised.

But if you want the great strides towards peace to continue then surely you recognise that this cuts both ways!

Edit to add.
With hindsight perhaps the word 'astounds' in the opening paragraph is innacurate, it would have been more appropriate if I had used 'disappoints'.

[edit on 15/6/10 by Freeborn]

I may well dip into a summarised version of the report later, but first view is that the report should now bring this whole affair to closure. Those who want continuation should shut up and let the dead rest.

Before everyone beings to moralise on this we must remember that this happened a few decades ago and the soldiers were faced with a situation which they were ill equipped to deal with. We can only guess the pressures these soldiers were under. Please bear in mind that terrorism was already happening by the time with the Provisional IRA and other terror groups chalking up mayhem and death as this Wikipedia listing shows:

The Provisional IRA murdered 1,800 people. Although many of the victim’s families would like to know “why and by whom” that will never happen. Furthermore, many of the terrorists got early release as part of the peace deal.

Best let this affair rest and celebrate the defeat of terrorism. Nothing would be gained by pursuing the “guilty” soldiers after all this time, as nothing is gained by pursing those terrorists who with malice and planning maimed, tortured and killed others, some of whom are buried in unmarked graves.

Regards

Edit to correct link

[edit on 15/6/2010 by paraphi]

reply to post by Freeborn


Are you saying that if a family member of yours, lets say your father or grandfather, was shot dead by an Irish Soldier or any soldier for that matter, lets say he was at a Civil Rights march in your city, was unarmed and went to help a injured man, then he was shot dead.

Would you not want the soldier to be held accountable? you really wouldnt want the soldier who murdered your innocent father to be held responsible? you would want him to go on and serve in another city or country maybe? continue to be a soldier of the British Army who are deemed a respectable and good army by many, he could easily carry out the same crimes again as his first were covered over and he got away with it.

The Good Friday Agreement was something that got a majority vote here in Northern Ireland. One of the terms was the early release from prison for all paramilitary groups who were observing a ceasefire, most of them had already spent a very long time in jail. This was on all sides catholic/protestant and was what the majority of the public wanted.
Did any of the Soldiers on Bloody Sunday ever get arrested? no they didnt, they went on to serve as soldiers elsewhere, free to move up in the ranks of the army, free to pretend that they were good soldiers who would look after the wellbeing of civilians, free to pretend that they were not murderers.

I hate that any people have died here, i hate that many civilians have died on both sides, i hate that people had to fight for nearly 40 years just to get truth from the army and to clear their relatives names.

If it was the IRA on Bloody Sunday who murdered innocent people then denied it, claiming that the people were armed and shooting at them first then I would feel the same way, but it wasnt, it was the British Army, the army that was here pretending to the world it was trying to protect us.

Does this bother you that it is the British Army? would it bother you as much if it were the IRA in their place? Is it the fact that the British army were no better ( if not far worse ) than those you call terrorists?

Those who organised the illegal march must bear some reponsibility for the trouble that occurred also....too much money was spent on this inquiry , what about the thousands of people who died as a result of terrorist shootings and bombings? no big inquirys for them.

Originally posted by The_Coo
Those who organised the illegal march must bear some reponsibility for the trouble that occurred also....too much money was spent on this inquiry , what about the thousands of people who died as a result of terrorist shootings and bombings? no big inquirys for them.

Those who organised the 'Civil Rights March' were doing so for exactly that reason 'Civil Rights', it was considered the most peaceful way to fight for rights, no guns, no bombs, just a large amount of people marching for civil rights.

The bombs and shootings were nearly always claimed afterwards by a paramilitary group, be it the IRA, UVF,INLA,UDA etc, so the police always knew what to go on and knew what group carried out the attack. Bloody Sunday however was completely diferent as the civilians killed were claimed to have been armed and shooting at soldiers prior to them being killed, soldiers who to the worlds eyes claimed to try and keep the peace, and soldiers who were armed and placed on the streets here for years, expected to be the peacekeepers lol, that is why there was an inquiry.

It did take too long tho, especially after the first inquiry which was BS.

reply to post by Freeborn


The murderous actions carried out on that day led to the whole of the northern counties being dragged into an protracted conflict. Those murders were seen as state sponsored and men in their droves made themselves available to pick up arms to defend their faith and their civil rights. The British goverments inability to hold those accountable meant that groups such as NORAID gave funding for arms and Libiyan camps gave 'Volunteers' the training they need to fights back.

The British members of ATS should look at the actions of the UK/US/Coalition in the areas of Iraq, Afghanistan, etc where flawed politics and a small percentage of ill disciplined troops can lead bombs being detonated on the 'home front' and these countries being labelled as 'war mongers'. The reason why the average person on the street can differentiate between fact, fiction and propaganda is due to the advent of the internet, where as in the past these events were potential victims of an newspaper editors bias.

If there are people who are are now eligable for convictions, then justice must be meted out otherwise are we going to pardon the likes of Osama Bin Laden due the excuse of 'well, it has been a few years now since 2001' or do we go the way of the Israelis in their pursuit of war criminals from the Holocaust (although they themselves may be chased into the future for their own actions in Gaza).

Originally posted by The_Coo
Those who organised the illegal march must bear some reponsibility for the trouble that occurred also....too much money was spent on this inquiry , what about the thousands of people who died as a result of terrorist shootings and bombings? no big inquirys for them.

Point 1: An 'illegal march' should be a total misnomer in a civilised western society, surely.

Point 2: Cost should NEVER come into seeking justice. If the UK goverment had carried out an unbiased inquiry and charged those found guilty after the event then maybe the tax payer wouldnt have had to fund the conflict which followed and countless lives would not have been lost.

Big surprise, not.

The english are masters at killing with microwaving innocent irish people in there homes for no reason other than they are irish.

Enough said.

reply to post by andy1033


Andy, stop talking silly again, no-one is microwaving anyone!

Despite repeated requests you have never given a shred of evidence to support your outlandish accusations.

Andy, I know you are more than capable of providing constructive and relevant posts to these threads, please do so!

Originally posted by andy1033
Big surprise, not.

The english are masters at killing with microwaving innocent irish people in there homes for no reason other than they are irish.

Enough said.

Andy are you EVER going to provide some proof of what you say?

Mind control in schools, microwaves in Ireland. Show us proof please

--

On another note, as an English man i can honestly say i'm disgusted that those soldiers have not served any sort of punishment, as much in the same way that i'm more disgusted that the commanding officer who GAVE the orders to the soldiers hasn't been hanged.

The slaughter of ANY unarmed civilians is inexcusable, and this is a bad blip on the history of our soldiers.

I'm glad that Cameron had the bollocks to apologise, but i'd have much rather heard it coming from the man who organised this and not the current PM who has nothing to do with it.

Let's hope people can find some peace now.

Originally posted by Lady_Tuatha

Are you saying that if a family member of yours, lets say your father or grandfather, was shot dead by an Irish Soldier or any soldier for that matter, lets say he was at a Civil Rights march in your city, was unarmed and went to help a injured man, then he was shot dead.

Yes, it's tragic and I understand and sympathise with that grief.
I know it only too well.
A friend dying in Warrington.
Two friend's died in Belfast, one was 18 the other was 19.
They never saw their killers.
Or a frind of mine's fiance who was caught by The IRA who then brutally tortured him before murdering him in a very sadistic way.

Don't you think their families and friends wanted justice?

The families of the victims of the bombings in Warrington, Manchester, Birmingham and London never had any say on The Good Friday Agreement.
But they accepted it and moved on.

What was done that day in Derry was wrong and no-one should even attempt to justify the actions.
I could attempt to cloud the issue in lot's of 'if's, but's, maybe's, why's, who's and what's', but that would be wrong.
Those 13 people were murdered.
And people should know exactly what happened on that awful day.
And who did what.

But what practical purpose will sending those people to jail serve other than re-igniting bitter hatreds and divisions?

Would you not want the soldier to be held accountable? you really wouldnt want the soldier who murdered your innocent father to be held responsible? you would want him to go on and serve in another city or country maybe? continue to be a soldier of the British Army who are deemed a respectable and good army by many, he could easily carry out the same crimes again as his first were covered over and he got away with it.

And would you want the person who killed your wife, daughter etc to be fee to get on with their life whilst you are so crippled with grief that your whole world means nothing anymore.
Cut us and we all bleed the same colour and we all feel the same grief.

If those soldiers go to jail then so should all the other murderers who callously killed thousands of innocents.

And then we will go back to the same old self-perpetuating circle of hatred that caused all those deaths in the first place.

It has to stop!
The circle of recrimination can not continue if Ireland is to move forward.

And then the evil gangsters who want a return to those days so that they can rule their communities through fear free from the fear of punishment will have won.

I hate that any people have died here, i hate that many civilians have died on both sides, i hate that people had to fight for nearly 40 years just to get truth from the army and to clear their relatives names.

And some died over here as well.

Yes, I agree, it is a disgrace that we have had to wait so long to get the truth.
And it must have been absolutely heart breaking for them.

If it was the IRA on Bloody Sunday who murdered innocent people then denied it, claiming that the people were armed and shooting at them first then I would feel the same way, but it wasnt, it was the British Army, the army that was here pretending to the world it was trying to protect us.

I have no answer to that.
It was wrong!

Does this bother you that it is the British Army? would it bother you as much if it were the IRA in their place? Is it the fact that the British army were no better ( if not far worse ) than those you call terrorists?

Does it bother you that it was the IRA who killed 3 people in Warrington, one a 2 year old boy another was 12 years old.
Nobody has ever been sentenced for that.
Don't you think their parents want justice as well?

What the hell did they have to do with The Troubles?

As I have said, I make no excuses for the actions of the soldiers that day and I have no excuses for the repeated attempts at trying to cover up the true facts around the awful killings.

But at some point we have to say enough is enough, learn from the events of yesterday and do everything within our power to ensure that such evil can not happen again.

Imprisoning these soldiers will only open a can of worms which will most probably result in a return to those dark days!

reply to post by Extreme Pilgrim


The Middle East has absolutely no relevance whatsoever on the events of that tragic day.

Edit to add.

I agree, no peaceful march should be illegal in our society.

[edit on 15/6/10 by Freeborn]

reply to post by Lady_Tuatha


Soldiers and civilains were being murdered in the years leading up to this event. It was a tragedy, but should be placed in the context of very violent times when the violence was being directed towards the army and police and the communities.

Regards

Originally posted by Freeborn
reply to post by Extreme Pilgrim

 

The Middle East has absolutely no relevance whatsoever on the events of that tragic day.

[edit on 15/6/10 by Freeborn]

The relevance of the point on the Middle East is that there are similar acts being carried out in foreign lands in the present day by 'our boys' and where mistakes of the past are are lessons unlikely learnt from here and now. The treatment of untried prisoners in Guantánamo Bay/Abu Ghraib is similar to that of Long Kesh. The shootings in Derry are similar to the Blackwater shootings in Baghdad.

reply to post by Extreme Pilgrim


The Blackwater shootings were carried out by a private US Security Firm.

Maybe I am being a little bit idealistic and perhaps naive but I would like to think that our Armed Services have learnt some lessons from events like Derry and are a little bit more professional.