Give me liberty, or give me death

America has an identity crises. Plain and simple, we have entered an era that is unprecedented in our nation. A time that, were my grandfather alive today, would completely disgust him as it would represent the rapid loss of what he had helped build.

There is lots of blame to spread around. We could blame Nazi infiltration post WWII. We could blame the socialist agenda pushed through public and university schools. We could blame pop culture, placating the masses with mindlessness. Or we could blame institutionalization. I mean, the list could literally go on and on.

But all of it boils down to one thing: American's stopped being American's. Once the 60's came to a halt, people were ready to have peace. We began to trust our government too much. To give them too much credit.

"Give me liberty, or give me death". This is the mantra of the American. The current increase in police interference in our daily lives, with greater and greater violence, spits in the face of this mantra. The complete fear of people in far flung land landing another sucker punch has given us the patriot act, the most ironically incorrect name for legislation in national history. Our citizens are incarcerated for buying drugs that were provided by the government (via the CIA/military) to begin with.

We are seeing greater and greater numbers of American's accepting government aid. During the current times, i can understand this more than previously, but the idea needs to be to get back to the point where this is not needed, and then do not allow our nation to be put in such peril ever again.

The reason I am making this thread is to serve as a reminder of a few things to my fellow Americans:

- during the upcoming political season, remember that not only have both parties failed us, neither party has relevant candidates to offer. Do not allow yourself to be a part of the "Democrat vs Republican" debate. If you see this debate occurring, shut it down or walk away from it. We cannot take our nation back until we unite for the cause. This silly dichotomy is not going to help.

- our national identity is based on not only being fiercely independent, but also somewhat unruly. You do not have to comply. Begin questioning everything, politely at first and less politely afterwords. Do not accede your rights without a fight. Guard them jealously.

- ask for nothing, and be thankful for what you get. our national greed is killing us, and the feeling of entitlement is as anti-American as it gets.

- above all else, quit settling. In national, state, and local elections, quit settling for a lackluster product. Do not vote for someone you know nothing about just because he talks well, or belongs to a certain party or church, or any other group. Americans are individual, independent, and must rise up to support the ideals that our nation was founded on. The political endorsement of an institution is reason enough for me to not vote for someone. We need to be lead by individuals, with loyalties to The People, not their cronies. Our leaders should enter office owing no one other than The People. We must try to take back our nation, and put an end to the antics.

The "eagle" we see used on national artwork is not what was originally there. Originally it was a phoenix. This is a fitting national symbol. Our nation is in dire straits, to be sure. It is unlikely the coming disaster can be averted. But if each and every one of you remember who we are, and what we stand for, the principles of liberty and freedom will not be trampled in the reactionary recovery that will follow.

Think critically, trust no one completely, and do not settle for less than absolute loyalty to the ideas of freedom, liberty, and the ability to live without tyranny. We are an armed population for a reason. This is not to say that violence is the answer, as we are also a civilized population that respects life. But regardless, we are still an armed population for a reason.

Be smart, vote smart, and teach your kids what it really means to be American. God bless.

and GOD bless YOU, fat texan with fur!

i feel the same as you!
but what a rousing speech.

i hope a lot of people read your thread.

reply to post by bigfatfurrytexan


Awesome thread and wise words!

S&F and a thumbs

Thank you both for posting.

It is critical. If we are to have any control over what the world will become when the dust settles, we must not allow our voices to be negated with fallacy, or unheard in the noise of rhetoric. We must follow simple, logical principles of right and wrong, and proper placement of loyalty.

We have to prevent fanaticism, as it will surely rear its ugly head as well (and it will lead to facism, if unchecked). And we must make sure that we do everything we can to prevent this from happening again.

Mankind has a unique opportunity. We should not allow ourselves to blow it.

Make sure you keep your ego in check. There is a lifetime of political programming that has to be undone for everyone. It will take awhile for you, and you should be open to others reminding you when you struggle. But, by the same token, others who are less open will have a harder time. Be understanding, but unwavering. Do not let them laugh you down as a nutcase, or dismiss you for being on the fringe. The fringe is the only place that the ideas of liberty can exist currently (and unfortunately).

I will not tolerate anything else other than to see American political values restored. Other opinions be damned, it matters more than my ego.

Originally posted by bigfatfurrytexan
Think critically, trust no one completely,

Absolutely.

Never, ever take a politician (or most anyone, for that matter) at their word. Do your homework and find out what's really going on.

This thread should be on the front page.

Huge S&F.


TheAssoc.

reply to post by bigfatfurrytexan


U are U and I am I.

Where the HELL did the mantra of what can my government do for me come from?

Must be a NEW thingy. Kinda like the narcissist thingy.

You know, what can I get out of the government?

You know what? When the government #cans, like we all know it will, those without family and friends will just POOOOF disappear. Community, family, honor. Things that USE to mean things will become true again. Oh, by the way government narcissists, they can ONLY steal from people and give to another, get it YET!?

Originally posted by endisnighe
reply to post by bigfatfurrytexan

 

U are U and I am I.

Where the HELL did the mantra of what can my government do for me come from?

Must be a NEW thingy. Kinda like the narcissist thingy.

You know, what can I get out of the government?

You know what? When the government #cans, like we all know it will, those without family and friends will just POOOOF disappear. Community, family, honor. Things that USE to mean things will become true again. Oh, by the way government narcissists, they can ONLY steal from people and give to another, get it YET!?

LOL, um....i think so?


"The givernment gives nothing that it hasn't taken from someone else."

This is an important idea to remember. Public assistance is is a drain on society. I, personally, have always been a proponent of requiring welfare recipients to do public service at a rate equal to the service they recieve. There are Wal Mart bags littering American roadways, and there are Animal Services kennels that need cleaning. I do not believe in something for nothing.

I also think that unemployment should be an "opt in" thing. pay a small fee into insurance if you choose to create the hedge. Right now we are seeing a bankrupt government go further into debt because of unemployment benefits. Meanwhile, i am still paying 60 bucks to get my yard mowed. Something is wrong with this picture.

Things will correct. They have to. What we need to prevent is the correction bringing tyranny with it. I am willing to die to prevent it. I am a fat, arthritic, 37 year old man who is 20 years past his "prime". But it matters enough to me that I would stand at your shoulder and face death to preserve it.

I agree with the overall idea here. I feel like it should be noted how society has broken us down to opposing groups throughout America. We are told America is the land of the free, then we are forcefed how different everyone is and told how every other group dislikes the group you fall under. We no longer stand as Americans, but instead a collection of different groups. The term "melting pot" doesn't imply separate entities, it means one mass of people that stand for the values of the country, social differences aside. We are now tricked into thinking our social backgrounds break us apart and hold some kind of weight into our politics.

For some reason I think of a video I recently saw of Ron Paul, when they asked him if he is pro-life. His reply was that, yes, he was pro-life but he didn't think the federal government had the right to stick its nose in that business. To me, that is what America is all about.

I also talk to some that say "How can you love America with all of the death and destruction it has caused?" Simple. I didn't cause that death and destruction by being born here, and the people that have caused it operate behind closed doors to the public. I love the country for everything it could be. We have lost our way somewhere along the road, but I think there has to be some kind of hope that we can straighten this mess out.

As of now I am surviving and I have my own apartment with two friends. I share a business with my buddy and we are doing pretty well even in the recession because we spread the word grassroots style.

Right now I am pretty worried though because last year a Wal-Mart store was built right by our store and now they are saying they need to expand their parking lot so they are trying to force us to sell out. When they told me that, I told them # you! Take your corporate crap down the road because don't want you hear.

We need to start rallying around our communities, start shopping at small local markets and 'ma and pa' stores. That is the first step in restoring our country and our communities. We have gone from communal level to national level now to international level and what has it done for us? It sold us out to the most sinister people in our world, corrupting us and convincing us the only thing important is to get rich at any costs necessary.

That's why in November I am voting Green. These two parties aren't like the 'head and tail' of a quarter, they are more like an open book with two separate pages but on the same side.

[edit on 6/13/2010 by Misoir]

reply to post by TheFinalTruth14


Dividing us is for polittical expediency. If we are divided into groups, it makes appealing to demographics easier.

Nice post. If people are willing to sacrifice a little, i think we can reclaim our country, too.

The problem I have with this line of thinking is simple: people are always thinking that the world is going to hell in a hand-basket.

A hundred and fifty years ago the United States did face the crisis of division, threats internal continued from anarchists to communists ever since. Don't for a second believe that the problems only started with the United States Civil War. Federalists versus anti-federalists, the absolutely insane Freemason paranoia and various religious infighting have put the United States in a state of constant change and crisis.

This is the state of living in a nation built on freedom and liberty, and it's inherently a good thing. So the current debate between the function of government in individuals lives will add to the American context. In another hundred years the United States will be unrecognizable to all of us today, just as it would be now to someone in 1910.

Some will think these changes for the worse and some for the better, it's a matter of worldview and history will make her own judgments.

reply to post by ProjectJimmy


This has nothing to do with the world. It is about America. It is about the rights and liberties of Americans not just being lost, but willfully being given away.

As a proxy to charity, we have developed a welfare state. Instead of maintaining independence by requiring work ethic, we are destroying work ethic by paying people to live for free.

Our government watchdog, the press, is not a government lapdog. The natural desire to entropy is damaging enough, causing them to find easier and easier ways to still get paid.

The world has gone to hell in a handbasket, and that happens from time to time. But our nation is perched precariously on the edge of a cliff. The system we have fostered will collapse. Now, what is reborne....that is what i am talking about here.

We need to remember who we are and what we stand for.

reply to post by bigfatfurrytexan


Check out the arguments that Libertarians were making when FDR was doing his New Deal, or when LBJ did the Great Society (which was expanded under the subsequent Nixon and Ford administrations.) They are the same ones you are making today under Obama.

Going back further, the same thing was said when Washington imposed taxation to pay for the Revolutionary War and every other time any progressive action has been taken by the United States. It hasn't killed your union yet nor will it this time.

Feel free to disagree with the policy all you like but saying the sky is falling only makes you look like you haven't learned anything from your country's history.

reply to post by ProjectJimmy


I understand your point of view, but maybe there's a reason people were upset then? If you are comparing the two, isn't the fact that Americans being upset is a common factor important? Maybe that tells you something? What would you rather us do? Say "Oh, it's happened before, don't worry about it. Let's go play video games!"

Maybe those people who were complaining back then did enough for the time being. There are a lot of injustices that go on everyday that would support the argument that not enough was done. A lot of civil liberties are infringed upon every day by our government. It cannot be argued that we have a government for the people anymore. This is a problem in current day, whether history wants to say so or not.

reply to post by TheFinalTruth14


People are always upset. There were even Americans who did not want to fight in World War II, and got very upset about it, that doesn't mean that they are right.

By simply working off of the premise that dissent means something is wrong negates the American consensus and would put the power over government in the hands of the few not the majority. A big portion of the OP's post was that Americans are willingly asking for government to fix problems. If that is the will of the majority of Americans, a philosophical and political argument must be made instead of a purely political change.

So goes the will of the people so goes the government, that is basic Locke Social Contract Theory which is what the United States was founded, almost verbatim upon.

A few points:

1) I personally believe that the Civil War, New Deals, and the instituting of popular vote for the Senate were the major moments of turning.

2) Not everything is worse, as we so like to hear. White people are less free, but people of color, non-Christians, and women are more free than they have been for the lion's share of history.

Good, bad, or ugly, not everything is worse. Some thing have gotten better.

3) "Give me liberty or give me death" is a dangerous motto to live by these days as our liberty is greatly diminished yet who is going to start the spree of destruction/death?

I say &^%& or get off the pot. The folks who want to go back to a more Constitutional government still believe in voting. That is their first mistake, but they will take no real step further.

All talk.

4) "When the people find they can vote themselves money, that will herald the end of the republic."

Ben Franklin. Simple as that and alludes to my first point.

Peace
KJ

Originally posted by KrazyJethro
2) Not everything is worse, as we so like to hear. White people are less free, but people of color, non-Christians, and women are more free than they have been for the lion's share of history.

I would say that is a net-positive regardless. The percentage of the population that are not White Christian Males in the United States vastly outnumbers the percentage that are. To say they, the majority are more free (and I would add have far more rights) than any period in history means that things are better.

As for the major turning points, you're only adding the ones that progressives have done, there have also been major periods of anti-progressive thought in the United States. I would add to this that the Westward Expansion (including genocide of the Native Americans,) Pacific Imperialist, Victorian-Edwardian American Isolationist, and W. Bush's Adventurism were all very regressive tidal periods in American history that should be considered turning points too.

Finally, I truly believe that voting is not just needed but absolutely critically fundamental to the American experiment. Without such you are loosing the very philosophy of Republicanism (classical not the party) that your country was founded upon and are doing away with all of the Enlightenment thought that lead to your country.

reply to post by ProjectJimmy


The premise of the OP was that the problems our country has here, today, are caused by our own hand. I think the poster a few slots down from you nails it with the Franklin quote about people voting themselves money.

We have lost our way as American's. That is the premise. LBJ is a fine example of a major bungling moron that helped speed up the process, for sure (as is Nixon, Ford, and Carter, and ever president subsequent to them). But the fault lies with The People.

RE: the sky falling. I just do not see any way to sustain the current debt. If we have even the slightest drop in population, we will begin to default to China. Of course, having our "3rd Coast" covered in oil isn't going to help us, now is it?

The Fed seems dead set on boosting population via immigration, mostly illegal. The People don't want that, and are using States Rights to fight back. So, i would say THAT debate is where the cheese is in this maze.

Make no mistake about it...we are perched on the cusp of major change. You can smell it in the winds. Stress is very high, and each political cycle sees more underwhelming candidates facing more overwhelming problems.

But that is kind of an aside. Like i said, this thread is meant to remind people to seek that which is American in our culture, and stifle everything else.

reply to post by ProjectJimmy


That was some good stuff. Couldn't have put it better myself.

Voting is critical. One issue we currently have is the whole southpark "Turd Sandwich" problem. We are given two equally unappealing choices.

Buck the system. Quit voting for the 2 parties. Even if you are voting for your uncle, find someone that you feel is qualified to do the job and vote for them.

reply to post by bigfatfurrytexan


To give an example: i am not a Christian, but there is a Christian pastor that in my estimation could be the finest President I have ever seen. No one knows Pastor Carroll Kohl, but I do as do many others in our community.

There is talented leadership. RNC and DNC hierarchy is just not putting it up there for us to vote on. We need to root this leadership out, and encourage it.

Instead of fighting for health care reform, we should be completely scrapping and rewriting the concepts of campaign finance. Quit locking out the little guy in favor of the institutions.