It's Official: There was No Humanitarian Aid on Mavi Marmara

reply to post by Freeborn


And I agree but there is no doubt in my mind that I have seen bias by mods...Wheather its intentional or not it will always occur.

Its why they bring in international umpires to umpire cricket mathches against Australia...

Although unintend, the Australian umps would show bias...Its a known fact.

reply to post by dbates


If your thread was in the conspiracy catergory then I'd consider it,

DEBUNKED.....

Lets move on to the next PROPAGAGDA thread..

reply to post by virgom129


Whilst I agree that his arguement has been 'debunked' I still support dbates and other Mods / Staff right to post and contribute.
Some of the best minds here on ATS are Mods and ATS would be a worse place without them.

It is always a concern of mine when they announce new Mods as they are nearly always members with an active history of contributing to various and assorted Forums, Mods posting habits tend to change quite alarmingly upon accepting Moderatorship.

reply to post by Freeborn


Granted, but I also suggested in a similar post that maybe the Mods need a second acount or , atleast remove the Mod title from their avatar..

BTW, I still stand by everything I've posted...

Originally posted by dbates
reply to post by Freeborn

 

I stated that in the original post.

Obviously their main goal was to create a faux PR nightmare for Israel.

They knew what they were getting into and some were actually hoping to be martyrs. Careful what you wish for because you just might get it.

oh so thats why they gave their lives! its was a pr stunt, wow now it all makes sense, want some attention then get someone to murder you, now i suddenly condone murder, thank you op for setting us straight on justifiable murder of defensless humanitarians, oh sorry i forgot you also made me aware no one can be a huminitarian without aid supplies, apparantly two hands and a will arent good enough,

[SARCASM]

They snuck their evil boat right in under Israeli helicopters that were minding their own business, then lured the nice commandos down from their helicopters just so they could get shot to death by them... all for a PR stunt.

Brilliant.

reply to post by dbates


Okay so, the people at Mavi Marmara were there because they were going to help people in Gaza, IMO they - the people - are humanitarian aid. There may have not been lot of cargo, but it was a passenger ship; what did you expect? Oh were they simply there because they wanted fight with IDF? C'mon, you should know better.

Intented PR-trick? Not likely, but it certainly ended to be one. It showed very well the nature of beast in man.

-v

[edit on 11-6-2010 by v01i0]

Is this thread meant to be a distration or dis-service. This news is coming from a Israeli newspaper, not very biased. The items listed in the article actually are needed in gaza and the U.N. and many, many nations and organizations have said this much.

They were listed as:


1. 300 wheelchairs
2. 300 new mobility scooters
3. 100 special mobility scooters for the disabled
4. Hundreds of crutches
5. 250 hospital beds
6. 50 sofas
7. Four tons of medicine
8. 20 tons of clothing, carpets, school bags, cloth and shoes
9. Various hospital equipment - closets and cabinets, operating theater equipment, etc.
10. Playground equipment
11. Mattresses

The equipment remaining at Ashdod Port on the three cargo ships which have not been offloaded include some 2000 tons of construction equipment - building materials and tools, and construction waste (rubble, toilets, sinks and cement) for re-use.

And this is why you cannot give aid to Israel. The equipment remaining at Ashdod port. Wtf? What happened to the rest of the aid and material? Though it was being rejected from going into palestine?

I think this whole post is trying to get some pro-Israel support out before this hits today.

In a Democracy Now! exclusive, we bring you a sneak preview of previously unseen raw footage from the Mavi Marmara that will be formally released at a press conference at the United Nations later in the day. The footage shows the mood and the activities onboard the Mavi Marmara in the time leading up to the attack, and the immediate reaction of the passengers during the attack. We are joined by filmmaker and activist Iara Lee, one of the few Americans on the Mavi Marmara ship. Her equipment was confiscated, but she managed to smuggle out an hour's worth of footage.

The article with the little bit of photo being shown so far is here:

www.sott.net...

Yes better get some disinfo out quick as this is not gonna be a good pr day for Israel.

As a relative newcomer to this site, I have to make a somewhat general comment.

In a significant number of threads, the debate degenerates into a bashing of the source of the information. The issues are abandoned in favour of ranting about "the fact" that the source of the information is:

a) biased
b) a tool of TPTB
c) fabricated
d) edited
e) bought and paid for by parties who have an axe to grind
f) in any way associated with any government of any sort or stripe

So...as parties interested in learning what is going on, we are left having to suffer endless blathering about why we should completely discount whatever is said by anybody.

No news source is seen as credible. All information is flawed, inaccurate and biased.

A few years back, I used to debate with a fellow who was a Chinese Communist supporter. Every time I tried to counter a point he made, he would say that my information source was obviously slanted against China and its system of government...so was therefore unreliable.

It became pointless to discuss anything with him.

We are all vessels full of "knowledge' gleaned from some external source...news, internet, teachers, books, parents.

Finding the truth is impossible if we decide in advance that all sources of information have no credibility.

Do I have a solution? No...just a little rant of my own.

reply to post by mobiusmale


Yeah, well take your rant to people that care...

Go post in an Israeli newspaper...

I just care about facts...We have seen enough to know what happened and the OP's post is not only from a biased source but is also BS...

reply to post by Freeborn


"Whilst I agree that his arguement has been 'debunked' I still support dbates and other Mods / Staff right to post and contribute. "

Yes, I still agree with your statement above, but
I would have to question this persons qualifications in remaining a mod..

Let them post all they want as a member but I for one will never be comfotable if they are moderating a thread I am in.

They have exhibited way too much bias in choice of subject and source to be considered neutral.

reply to post by virgom129


I've been here 3 years now and have no reason to question dbates integrity.

dbates has been a member of ATS for a number of years and a staff member as long as I've been here, I think he deserves a little bit of respect for that.
As long as he continues to be fair minded in threads he mods in there should be no problem.
If you think he is ever anything other than impartial in his treatment of you, or anyone else for that matter, then there is an established procedure to follow.

Of course having said that, there is the eternal question, who mods the mods?

Originally posted by virgom129
Agreed but It also dramatically points out that Mods are bias towards one side...

It was obvious bias towards one side.......

Mods should not only be unbiased but should also be seen to be unbiased..

Why? As you can see from page 1 we don't agree on topics. Mods are allowed their opinions as well and that isn't going to change.

"this mission is not about delivering Humanitarian supply, but rather
about breaking the Israeli siege," - Greta Berlin, Free Gaza flotilla spokesperson.

From the horse's mouth.

If the above quote, from one of the organisers is not conclusive of the intention, I really don't know what is.

I had said this from day one on ATS, literally.

Only a small percentage of the passengers had to be 'in the loop'. This is evident from the videos showing the armed antagonists preparing at the rear of the ship, a failry secluded place pre-raid, as it turned out.

As shown below;


For me, the humanitarian aid was purely a guise with which to provoke further international condemnation.

It worked, mission accomplished.


Kind regards,

Skellon.


[edit on 11-6-2010 by Skellon]

reply to post by Skellon


IDF response 3-A). Israeli Defense Initiative.

Got it.

Originally posted by dbates
The Mavi Marmara, the ship all the shooting took place on, wasn't carrying any humanitarian aid at all. The only cargo it had was a group of rowdy passengers looking for a fight. Can they still claim that the ship was on a humanitarian mission? If so then how? Obviously their main goal was to create a faux PR nightmare for Israel. I suppose we can call their mission a success then.

Nope.

The people who created the PR nightmare for Israel were the Israelis.

After all, they decided to board a ship with armed special forces commandos in international waters, then killed 9 people, and left a couple of dozen wounded as well.

So even if it was "a group of rowdy passengers looking for a fight" then the Israeli's duly obliged them, which is dumb stupid on Israels part.

Now either Mossad has gone soft, and the chief military planner for the mission is a Hammas agent, or the blame for this debacle lies firmly at the feet of the IDF.

In my opinion, of course...

[edit on 11/6/10 by neformore]

reply to post by neformore


Hi neformore,

The use of 'Shayetet 13' was consistent with the successful interception of the Antiguan flagged 'MV Francop' on Novermber the 4th 2009.

This was not an 'especially aggressive show of force' conceived for the Freedom Flotilla alone.

The 'MV Francop' was found to be carrying a large amount of Iranian sourced arms and was headed for Lebanon and to the Hezbullah. The Shayetet 13 boarded the 'MV Francop' without resistance.

The difference was, that the Free Gaza organisers deliberatly promoted this voyage months before it took place to generate international support and awareness, so if anything should happen, as they knew it would, the world would be watching.

Also, in contrast to the 'MV Francop' it was decided to use non-lethal weapons as 'primaries' and strict orders were given to not use lethal force (live backup weapons) unless their lives depended on it.

This 'soft' approach was partially responsible for the deaths ironically.

Hence Benjamin Netanyahu stating that next time they would use more force.


'MV Francop' reference : en.wikipedia.org...


Kind regards,

Skellon.


[edit on 11-6-2010 by Skellon]

reply to post by Skellon


Hence Benjamin Netanyahu stating that next time they would use more force.


You have to wonder at that statement...

Police all over the world face violent protesters every day...
Yet they dont kill in the ratio that the IDF did.....

Are the IDF just so poorly trained???

Maybe they should go to Europe for training...

And, we still haven't been told yet who attacked first..
If it's proven the Israelis fired on the ship before boarding then I think the activists were very restrained in their assault...

reply to post by virgom129


Hi virgom,

This is one of the key reasons that anyone with good military knowledge would doubt the calls of 'murder' regarding the interception of the Mavi Marmara.

The IDF are far from poorly trained.

The IDF are infact regarded highly in military circles.

The IDF Special Forces are respected and their most elite SF (Sayeret Matkal) is modelled on the British SAS, even sharing the same 'Who Dares Wins' motto.

We are not talking about murderers off a leash. We are talking about some of the best trained and disciplined servicemen in the world.

In regards to discipline, I would put the IDF alongside the British Forces as being the most disciplined forces in the world.

The United States is lacking in this respect.

The difference here is that with the high frequency of engagements between Hamas / civilians and the IDF in an ongoing conflict, Israeli government's preemtive deterrence policy and lastly, the main stream media's focus on 'misery sells' we are given the impression that they are all 'loose cannons' and a law unto themselves.

You can look into the history of most Western military forces and find incidents that will spark controversy. These other military forces are not engaged as frequently or for as long a period as the IDF. Therefore the 'incidents' stack up with the IDF and to people who are opposed to Israel's actions; only prove there is an 'undoubtable' pattern of 'murders' and war crimes.

Also, being 'attacked' and being 'beaten to within an inch of your life' are two very different things. The commandos were lucky not to suffer deaths.

Kind regards,

Skellon.

[edit on 11-6-2010 by Skellon]

reply to post by Skellon


I dont see how that answers my post.....

I read in another thread that the only Live guns the IDF had were pistols..

If this is true then why were there so many kills from Headshots?

Any trained shooter knows a pistol lacks accuracy and would therefore ( in the paniced scene you discribe) go for a body shot to increase chances of a hit...