It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.
Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.
Thank you.
Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.
If State Executions Are Carried Out In Our Name, Is There Blood On Our Hands ??
page: 1share:
I was thinking about this when watching a documentary about executions last night. I know not every state carries them out anymore, ...
But let's say it does ok, .. Executions are carried out by the state, for the state. Technicaly WE are actualy the state. So when someone is executed, it is done so by the people of whichever state it occurs in.
On the condemned man's birth certificate the cause of death is Homicide !! And as we know, homicide by any other name is Murder !!!
So in essence, the people in that state are perpetrators of murder when it all boils down to it. And well you might say the condemned men deserved it, .... but how many of these men were innocent ???
How many innocent men is too much ?? Their blood is on our hands, ... all of us. We are the people of the state, we elect the one's who pass these laws.
So I'd like to gather your thoughts on the subject.
If you are Christian, or Catholic especialy, .... does this qualify as a Sin ?? Are there such things as mortal sin's that cannot be forgiven ?? is not murder one of them ??? one could argue that the death penalty is an evil institution bent on sending you all to hell !!
Even if you are not religious, what is your stance on this subject ??
But let's say it does ok, .. Executions are carried out by the state, for the state. Technicaly WE are actualy the state. So when someone is executed, it is done so by the people of whichever state it occurs in.
On the condemned man's birth certificate the cause of death is Homicide !! And as we know, homicide by any other name is Murder !!!
So in essence, the people in that state are perpetrators of murder when it all boils down to it. And well you might say the condemned men deserved it, .... but how many of these men were innocent ???
How many innocent men is too much ?? Their blood is on our hands, ... all of us. We are the people of the state, we elect the one's who pass these laws.
So I'd like to gather your thoughts on the subject.
If you are Christian, or Catholic especialy, .... does this qualify as a Sin ?? Are there such things as mortal sin's that cannot be forgiven ?? is not murder one of them ??? one could argue that the death penalty is an evil institution bent on sending you all to hell !!
Even if you are not religious, what is your stance on this subject ??
I love your question.
Perhaps people should ask a the elected state representative, what their postion is, on the death penalty, befor voting them in.
Other wise, majority rules......................LOL
Perhaps people should ask a the elected state representative, what their postion is, on the death penalty, befor voting them in.
Other wise, majority rules......................LOL
It is a good question. It is a tricky one, when you start to get philosophical about it. So I dunno, one innocent person is one too many. Really it
comes down to evidence.
Personally I'm all for the death penalty - but only for pedophiles, serial killers, rapists, sociopaths and the violently insane (ie, beyond rehabilitation) - kill them all and let God sort them out for their next life.
Personally I'm all for the death penalty - but only for pedophiles, serial killers, rapists, sociopaths and the violently insane (ie, beyond rehabilitation) - kill them all and let God sort them out for their next life.
Originally posted by IntastellaBurst
Even if you are not religious, what is your stance on this subject ??
I have no appreciation
For any incarceration
Aimed at rehabilitation
While causing dehumanization
Man's appointed establishment
Chosen to sit in judgment
Intended to rise above sentiment
Is borne of discontentment
Methods used to desensitize
Instead will only demoralize
While pushing us to rationalize
Away from truth we must realize
Justice is our premise to constitute
We assume the right to prosecute
Blindly our own souls we persecute
When we sin against Man and execute
Everybody has blood on their hands.
Everybody.
Regardless of religion or any other metric associated with such questions.
We collectively have the blood of all innocents and guilty on our hands, because we the people allow such things to occur.
~Keeper
Everybody.
Regardless of religion or any other metric associated with such questions.
We collectively have the blood of all innocents and guilty on our hands, because we the people allow such things to occur.
~Keeper
reply to post by ghostsoldier
I see where your coming from, ... but death itself, by any means is not a punishment, it's a free ride to the afterlife. Lethal injection is supposed to be painless, we would be so lucky if we meet our end in a painless fashion.
Why remove them from living hell ( prison ) and send them to a realm of peace and love. I think the better punishment would be solitary confinment for life.
I see where your coming from, ... but death itself, by any means is not a punishment, it's a free ride to the afterlife. Lethal injection is supposed to be painless, we would be so lucky if we meet our end in a painless fashion.
Why remove them from living hell ( prison ) and send them to a realm of peace and love. I think the better punishment would be solitary confinment for life.
reply to post by IntastellaBurst
Why waste money and resources feeding and looking after these people?
And I'm not saying lethal injection or electrocution is the best way to do it either. Excuse my medieval approach - but they should die in a similar vein to their crimes.
And perhaps it should be up to their victims to decide whether they should die or not.
ETA:
I disagree that we would be sending them to a realm of peace and love - we would be sending them to God (or representatives of) who would pass karmic judgment and then make a selection to the next life he or she will be sent to (based on the life lessons they need to correct their previous errors and allow their soul to continue to evolve).
But maybe thats my idiosyncratic belief system (The Urantia Book plays a sizeable role - see sig) - Evil rich men, might be reincarnated as starving africans etc.
[edit on 9/6/10 by ghostsoldier]
Why waste money and resources feeding and looking after these people?
And I'm not saying lethal injection or electrocution is the best way to do it either. Excuse my medieval approach - but they should die in a similar vein to their crimes.
And perhaps it should be up to their victims to decide whether they should die or not.
ETA:
I disagree that we would be sending them to a realm of peace and love - we would be sending them to God (or representatives of) who would pass karmic judgment and then make a selection to the next life he or she will be sent to (based on the life lessons they need to correct their previous errors and allow their soul to continue to evolve).
But maybe thats my idiosyncratic belief system (The Urantia Book plays a sizeable role - see sig) - Evil rich men, might be reincarnated as starving africans etc.
[edit on 9/6/10 by ghostsoldier]
But I dunno, I'm in two minds.
In one sense I'm for it.
But the karmic response to those who perform the executions is a tough thing to wrap my head around. And this goes back to the OP question, is their blood on our hands also.
I dunno - I'm about 60:40 or maybe 50:50...
It's a tough one.
In one sense I'm for it.
But the karmic response to those who perform the executions is a tough thing to wrap my head around. And this goes back to the OP question, is their blood on our hands also.
I dunno - I'm about 60:40 or maybe 50:50...
It's a tough one.
reply to post by ghostsoldier
your right, keeping them alive does cost money, .... but it would also be torture for them, so it's spent well.
and I agree, punishment should fit the crime, .... I hate all the politicaly correct people who say criminals should feel no pain and have calm, humanitarian deaths.....
Did their victims have painless, humanitarian deaths ??? What about the criminals who raped, tortured and cut their victims to peices ?? They should be thrown to a pack of wolves, but nooooooo, all of the sudden their people and they deserve the kindest death available.
quite ridiculous. In other parts of the world they cut your hand off for stealing a peice of fruit. Most people are executed on the spot.
Yet I still believe they should be left alive, to live the worse kind of life imaginable, because death is a release, it is a reward, now a punishment.
What do u think we can come up with ?? to keep them alive yet provide the most painful life possible ???
your right, keeping them alive does cost money, .... but it would also be torture for them, so it's spent well.
and I agree, punishment should fit the crime, .... I hate all the politicaly correct people who say criminals should feel no pain and have calm, humanitarian deaths.....
Did their victims have painless, humanitarian deaths ??? What about the criminals who raped, tortured and cut their victims to peices ?? They should be thrown to a pack of wolves, but nooooooo, all of the sudden their people and they deserve the kindest death available.
quite ridiculous. In other parts of the world they cut your hand off for stealing a peice of fruit. Most people are executed on the spot.
Yet I still believe they should be left alive, to live the worse kind of life imaginable, because death is a release, it is a reward, now a punishment.
What do u think we can come up with ?? to keep them alive yet provide the most painful life possible ???
reply to post by IntastellaBurst
You make them do the dirty jobs, like picking up the trashes and cleaning the sewers. Since they trespassed the law, they should see their rights suspended.
And in my list of those being on the death row list we should put corrupt politicians and over-greedy businessmen. They kill more, and do more damage then any lone killer.
It's just that the lone ones are publicized...
And concerning the question in the OP; yes, we are accountable since "we" put them in charge...
You make them do the dirty jobs, like picking up the trashes and cleaning the sewers. Since they trespassed the law, they should see their rights suspended.
And in my list of those being on the death row list we should put corrupt politicians and over-greedy businessmen. They kill more, and do more damage then any lone killer.
It's just that the lone ones are publicized...
And concerning the question in the OP; yes, we are accountable since "we" put them in charge...
reply to post by IntastellaBurst
Dear IntastellaBurst
As far as he Bible is concerned you are guilty as much as the jurors in the case.
However think of the Hang man, it has been a while now since the death penalty was repealed in the UK but before that time there were a lot of hang men that suffered terrible mental problems in latter life.
The fact is to kill someone it has to be done by somebody.
Too add to that the extremely inefficient law enforcement has sent many an innocent to be executed.
Yes if you are in law enforcement I do mean you.
Dear IntastellaBurst
As far as he Bible is concerned you are guilty as much as the jurors in the case.
However think of the Hang man, it has been a while now since the death penalty was repealed in the UK but before that time there were a lot of hang men that suffered terrible mental problems in latter life.
The fact is to kill someone it has to be done by somebody.
Too add to that the extremely inefficient law enforcement has sent many an innocent to be executed.
Yes if you are in law enforcement I do mean you.
The following is my opinion as a member participating in this discussion.
God gives the right to government and societies to enforce just laws, including capital punishment:
Submission to the Authorities
Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you. For he is God’s servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God’s servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also because of conscience. This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God’s servants, who give their full time to governing. Give everyone what you owe him: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor. - Romans 13: 1-7
As an ATS Staff Member, I will not moderate in threads such as this where I have participated as a member.
If State Executions Are Carried Out In Our Name, Is There Blood On Our Hands ??
Nope. I believe in capital punishment. There will always be those `anomalies, non-conformists, etc.`on either end of the spectrum that do not benefit society, family values, life, liberty, peace, etc. Make one exception to any ill of society and all other exceptions are valid.
[edit on 2010-6-09 by pikypiky]
Nope. I believe in capital punishment. There will always be those `anomalies, non-conformists, etc.`on either end of the spectrum that do not benefit society, family values, life, liberty, peace, etc. Make one exception to any ill of society and all other exceptions are valid.
[edit on 2010-6-09 by pikypiky]
reply to post by defcon5
"And early in the morning He came again into the Temple , and all the people came unto Him; and He sat down, and taught them."
"And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto Him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst, They say unto Him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act. Now Moses in the Law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest Thou?"
"This they said, tempting Him, that they might have to accuse Him."
"But Jesus stooped down, and with His finger wrote on the ground, as though He heard them not. So when they continued asking Him, He lifted up Himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her. And again He stooped down, and wrote on the ground."
"And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst."
"When Jesus had lifted up Himself, and saw none but the woman, He said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? Hath no man condemned thee?"
"She said, No man, Lord."
"And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more." (John 8:2-11 KJV)
"And early in the morning He came again into the Temple , and all the people came unto Him; and He sat down, and taught them."
"And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto Him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst, They say unto Him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act. Now Moses in the Law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest Thou?"
"This they said, tempting Him, that they might have to accuse Him."
"But Jesus stooped down, and with His finger wrote on the ground, as though He heard them not. So when they continued asking Him, He lifted up Himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her. And again He stooped down, and wrote on the ground."
"And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst."
"When Jesus had lifted up Himself, and saw none but the woman, He said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? Hath no man condemned thee?"
"She said, No man, Lord."
"And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more." (John 8:2-11 KJV)
Luke 6:31 (KJV)
While I'm a firm believer in `free will`, there are bad eggs out there that need to be discarded and when those who harm others and take away the `free will` to live peacefully they need to be executed.
For those requiring imagery: Is eating rotten eggs just as good as enjoying the good ones? I don't think so! Thank you.
[edit on 2010-6-10 by pikypiky]
And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise.
While I'm a firm believer in `free will`, there are bad eggs out there that need to be discarded and when those who harm others and take away the `free will` to live peacefully they need to be executed.
For those requiring imagery: Is eating rotten eggs just as good as enjoying the good ones? I don't think so! Thank you.
[edit on 2010-6-10 by pikypiky]
reply to post by AUSceptic
Jesus did not say they could not stone her under the law, did he?
You missed the point of that story:
The following is my opinion as a member participating in this discussion.
Jesus did not say they could not stone her under the law, did he?
You missed the point of that story:
When the Pharisees brought a woman who was caught in the act of adultery to Jesus and asked Him if she should be stoned, Jesus replied, “If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her” (John 8:7). This should not be used to indicate that Jesus rejected capital punishment in all instances. Jesus was simply exposing the hypocrisy of the Pharisees. The Pharisees wanted to trick Jesus into breaking the Old Testament law; they did not truly care about the woman being stoned (where was the man who was caught in adultery?) God is the One who instituted capital punishment: “Whoever sheds man's blood, by man his blood shall be shed, for in the image of God He made man” (Genesis 9:6). Jesus would support capital punishment in some instances. Jesus also demonstrated grace when capital punishment was due (John 8:1-11).
As an ATS Staff Member, I will not moderate in threads such as this where I have participated as a member.
a question for everyone who approves of capital punishment:
have YOU ever been accused of a crime you did not commit?
can you imagine yourself in that situation?
it doesn't take much - being in the wrong place, at the wrong time pretty much can do it!
now, imagine that it's happened to you.
imagine that you have no money and no relatives or friends with funds to help you get an attorney other than the state-appointed counsel.
take it one further:
imagine that the crime that you've been falsely accused of is a capital crime and you are in a state that still applies the death penalty to capital crimes.
you have no alibi and really no hope for an acquittal by any means.
what are your thoughts now?
have YOU ever been accused of a crime you did not commit?
can you imagine yourself in that situation?
it doesn't take much - being in the wrong place, at the wrong time pretty much can do it!
now, imagine that it's happened to you.
imagine that you have no money and no relatives or friends with funds to help you get an attorney other than the state-appointed counsel.
take it one further:
imagine that the crime that you've been falsely accused of is a capital crime and you are in a state that still applies the death penalty to capital crimes.
you have no alibi and really no hope for an acquittal by any means.
what are your thoughts now?
reply to post by IntastellaBurst
OK, I am going to put this another way.
If you have a serial rapist and murderer, and put him to death...thank you.
If you have a serial murderer and wife beater - and put him to death...thank you.
Anyone else should not be put to death - but the deaths of these evil people is not on your conscience - no way.
OK, I am going to put this another way.
If you have a serial rapist and murderer, and put him to death...thank you.
If you have a serial murderer and wife beater - and put him to death...thank you.
Anyone else should not be put to death - but the deaths of these evil people is not on your conscience - no way.
reply to post by queenannie38
That's really the problem with capitol punishment, isn't it?
Our system convicts the wrong people often enough that innocent people have been executed.
Is there blood on our hands, absolutely. We allow it to occur. Proof that we are such a barbaric species, we should not be allowed to roam outside of our realm here on the crust of the earth.
Capitol punishment is nothing but pure revenge.
The state workers who take part in executions are rewarded killers. Some are probably serial killers who found the perfect job. I guess we allow demons to exist as long as they're doing what we ask.
That's really the problem with capitol punishment, isn't it?
Our system convicts the wrong people often enough that innocent people have been executed.
Is there blood on our hands, absolutely. We allow it to occur. Proof that we are such a barbaric species, we should not be allowed to roam outside of our realm here on the crust of the earth.
Capitol punishment is nothing but pure revenge.
The state workers who take part in executions are rewarded killers. Some are probably serial killers who found the perfect job. I guess we allow demons to exist as long as they're doing what we ask.
A man is innocent till proven guilty.
Thus, to condemn a man, it must be proven beyond reasonable doubt through a fair trial, where he is given the chance to explain himself. If he is found guilty beyond reasonable doubt, then justice must be served.
Capital punishments are only for those who murders another fellow human, and even then, such punishments are not easily given. There must be no doubt that that human being had turn into a barbaric beasts, an animal and took the law in his own hands with no authority and conducted a summary execution upon another.
If found guilty beyond any doubt, he deserves his condemnation, an evil to civilisation and must be put away for the safety of fellow humans. Even as he goes, he should be given a chance to repent, see the error of his barbaric ways, and make peace with his Creator for destroying one of His own.
Is his blood on our hands?. Yes, even there were no other choice to stop his rampage and to protect other humans, and is a cross we must bear, and we must do more so that there will be no more murders on our planet, through better education and opportunities. Let not his death, a fellow human, be in vain.
Thus, to condemn a man, it must be proven beyond reasonable doubt through a fair trial, where he is given the chance to explain himself. If he is found guilty beyond reasonable doubt, then justice must be served.
Capital punishments are only for those who murders another fellow human, and even then, such punishments are not easily given. There must be no doubt that that human being had turn into a barbaric beasts, an animal and took the law in his own hands with no authority and conducted a summary execution upon another.
If found guilty beyond any doubt, he deserves his condemnation, an evil to civilisation and must be put away for the safety of fellow humans. Even as he goes, he should be given a chance to repent, see the error of his barbaric ways, and make peace with his Creator for destroying one of His own.
Is his blood on our hands?. Yes, even there were no other choice to stop his rampage and to protect other humans, and is a cross we must bear, and we must do more so that there will be no more murders on our planet, through better education and opportunities. Let not his death, a fellow human, be in vain.
new topics
-
Mass Shooting Towson, Maryland - 7 shot, 1 possibly dead
Social Issues and Civil Unrest: 1 hours ago -
Trump formally clinches Electoral College victory
2024 Elections: 6 hours ago -
Elon Musk has Meeting with Nigel Farage at Mar-a-Lago
Regional Politics: 9 hours ago -
What's the buzz
General Chit Chat: 9 hours ago -
Was Biden's Mass clemency and pardons one last cash grab?
US Political Madness: 10 hours ago
top topics
-
Trump formally clinches Electoral College victory
2024 Elections: 6 hours ago, 14 flags -
Was Biden's Mass clemency and pardons one last cash grab?
US Political Madness: 10 hours ago, 9 flags -
What's the buzz
General Chit Chat: 9 hours ago, 8 flags -
New job to help stop school shootings
Social Issues and Civil Unrest: 16 hours ago, 5 flags -
Elon Musk has Meeting with Nigel Farage at Mar-a-Lago
Regional Politics: 9 hours ago, 4 flags -
Mass Shooting Towson, Maryland - 7 shot, 1 possibly dead
Social Issues and Civil Unrest: 1 hours ago, 4 flags
active topics
-
Something better
Dissecting Disinformation • 43 • : chr0naut -
Remember These Attacks When President Trump 2.0 Retribution-Justice Commences.
2024 Elections • 114 • : WeMustCare -
Mass Shooting Towson, Maryland - 7 shot, 1 possibly dead
Social Issues and Civil Unrest • 5 • : matafuchs -
Elon Musk has Meeting with Nigel Farage at Mar-a-Lago
Regional Politics • 5 • : nugget1 -
What's the buzz
General Chit Chat • 17 • : DBCowboy -
Trump formally clinches Electoral College victory
2024 Elections • 1 • : rickymouse -
Could rampant land speculation have caused the Civil War?
History • 39 • : matafuchs -
Trump Cancel trip to New Jersey because of drones
Aliens and UFOs • 50 • : DBCowboy -
School shooting in Madison Wi.
Social Issues and Civil Unrest • 63 • : TruthJava -
Drones everywhere in New Jersey ---and Elsewhere Master Thread
Aliens and UFOs • 199 • : xuenchen