Atlantis: The Evidence (Thera)

For over two millennia many of the worlds leading thinkers have sought to unravel the mystery of Atlantis while many more explorers and adventurers have dedicated their lives to actually finding the lost mythical city.

It has served as the inspiration for many writers and film producers from Jules Verne to Walt Disney. Famous names from all walks of life have thrown their hat into the ring and given their opinions on what Atlantis and the people who lived there were really like. Francis Bacon, Ignatius L. Donnelly, Helen Blavatsky and Edgar Cayce being just a few of the more recognisable names who have written extensively about the Atlantis mystery.

In 1882, the four times Prime Minister, William Ewart Gladstone, tried (unsuccessfully) to persuade the Cabinet to fund an Atlantis exploration vessel and in 1938 Reichsführer-SS Heinrich Himmler apparently organised an exhibition to Tibet in search of the Aryan Atlanteans.

So, where is the evidence for this lost mythical civilisation? Well, it was surely lost when the city fell victim to the wrath of the gods and was annihilated by a series of earthquakes, eruptions and tsunamis?

Maybe it was...or maybe we aren’t looking hard enough?

Well in a recent documentary, Atlantis: The Evidence, historian Bettany Hughes presents a series of geological, archaeological and historical clues to show that the legend of Atlantis was inspired by a real historical event - the greatest natural disaster of the ancient world.

It is this theory that we will be looking at today.

In the mid second millennium BCE the second largest volcanic eruption in human history devastated the island of Thera (also called Santorini), including the Minoan settlement at Akrotiri -- as well as communities and agricultural areas on nearby islands and on the coast of Crete. With an estimated DRE (total volume of material erupted from the volcano) in excess of 60 km3, the volume of ejecta was approximately 100 km3, placing the Volcanic Explosivity Index of the Thera eruption at 6 or 7. The eruption dwarfs even that of Krakatoa, which ejected about 25 cubic km of molten rock, ash and pumice in 1883, killing 40,000 inhabitants of Java and Sumatra in just a few hours.

The eruption triggered the downfall of the Minoan civilisation who were swiftly overrun by the Mycenaean civilization (Greeks). But the big question is...was the myth of Atlantis born the day the Minoan Civilisation died?

Lets look at the evidence...

(All Plato references come from both his famous works 'Critias' and 'Timaeus')

Plato described the topography of Atlantis as follows:

'There were circular belts of sea and land enclosing one another. Some greater, some smaller.'

Now, although this could be a description of many different locations around the world one would have to admit that is bares a certain resemblance to ancient Thera (modern day Santorini) below.

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/458cd23cee0d.jpg[/atsimg]

There is another topographic/geographic resemblance too – one that also fits into the style of ancient Akritori architecture.

From Plato’s account:

'The stone which was used in the work they quarried from underneath the centre island, and from underneath the zones, on the outer as well as the inner side. One kind was white, another black, and a third red, and as they quarried.'

One of the first sights any visitor to Thera will get is of it’s sheer cliff edges that leave exposed stone of red, white and black...

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/aec742301142.jpg[/atsimg]

But Plato was not just describing the way the island itself looked but also the architecture that the ancient Minoans incorporated within their society...

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/71570a1297b6.jpg[/atsimg]

And this type of rock (of red, white and black) is still being quarried in Akritori today.

Plato also described the rituals and social activities of the Atlanteans. One such ritual involved the sacred bull.

’...hunted the bulls, without weapons but with staves and nooses.’

This sounds strikingly similar to the Minoan ritual of Bull leaping, depicted in one of the Minoan frescos below.

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/6b18081c44b3.jpg[/atsimg]

Was Plato’s account a garbled memory of Minoan bull leaping?

Plato also described Atlantis as a place of true virtue and the Atlanteans as an extremely advanced society. Well this can also be said of the Minoans of Thera.

The people of Thera were light years ahead of other civilisations – they had a well organised economy and were an immense egalitarian society. At numerous sites both in Thera and Crete archaeologists have found an extensive and sophisticated system of sewers, drainage, drinking and bath water pipes. Private homes had flush toilets and bathtubs. It appears the Minoans heated their houses and had hot and cold running water from hydrothermal vents.

This ties in with what Plato described...

'...bringing up (of) two springs of water from beneath the earth... fountains, one of cold and another of hot water...there were the king's baths and also the baths of private persons.'

They made use of writing and were sophisticated inventors especially within the realm of the arts where they were experts at pottery making and wall painting – their vivid frescos are legendary.

Plato also describes them as a peaceful society and this is evident of the Minoans of Thera – seeking advancement through trade and economy rather than conquest. Within their beautiful frescos there is no evidence of war or weaponry (something that is rare for a bronze age society) and women also had standing in society.



Plato also spoke of Atlantis’ huge harbour and sailing abilities...

'The entire area was densely crowded with habitations; and the canal and the largest of the harbours were full of vessels and merchants coming from all parts, who, from their numbers, kept up a multitudinous sound of human voices, and din and clatter of all sorts night and day.'

Well Thera was home to one of the most important harbours of the ancient world – a trading lynchpin between three continents (Asia, Europe and Africa) – this proved to be the key to their success. As depicted in the below fresco.

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/e358a1dd7844.jpg[/atsimg]

These are the most famous of all the frescos and are the earliest representations of sailing ships known. It is obvious that the people of Thera were accomplished in sailing and interacted with people from all over the globe, giving them vast knowledge of lands afar. Also, these visiting merchants would have passed on the story of the Minoans of Thera to other cultures – their wealth and sophistication would have been legendary.

However, Plato describes how the Atlanteans became corrupted by their glory and eventually...

'...when the divine portion began to fade away, and became diluted too often and too much with the mortal admixture, and the human nature got the upper hand, they then, being unable to bear their fortune, behaved unseemly, and to him who had an eye to see grew visibly debased, for they were losing the fairest of their precious gifts; but to those who had no eye to see the true happiness, they appeared glorious and blessed at the very time when they were full of avarice and unrighteous power.'

Zeus then saw this and decided to punish the Atlanteans. He begins to speak but everything he says is unknown as the rest of Critias remains non existant.

However Plato does tell us of the fate of the Atlanteans...

'But at a later time there occurred portentous earthquakes and floods, and one grievous day and night befell them, when the whole body of your warriors was swallowed up by the earth, and the island of Atlantis in like manner was swallowed up by the sea and vanished; wherefore also the ocean at that spot has now become impassable and unsearchable, being blocked up by the shoal mud which the island created as it settled down.'

As we have already seen, the Minoan civilisation were also destroyed by a massive volcanic eruption after months of earthquake warnings. The fact that no human remains have been found at Thera indicates that they managed to escape or at least evacuate the city of Akrotiri and most probably died somewhere else on the island – yet to be discovered.

When Plato describes that in the aftermath of Atlantis’ demise the area ‘became an impassable barrier of mud to voyagers sailing from hence to any part of the ocean’ he is clearly describing a pumice build up.

Pumice varies in density according to the thickness of the solid material between the bubbles; many samples float in water. After the explosion of Krakatoa, rafts of pumice drifted through the Pacific Ocean for up to 20 years, with tree trunks floating among them.

Wiki

This pumice can still be found today all over the islands coastline and it must have been problematic for merchants and sailors for years to come.

So, did Atlantis ever exist? I believe it did. I believe that Plato used his story of Atlantis as some sort of allegory – a morality tale warning of the dangers that can come with huge success and wealth. It was also Plato’s attempt at magnifying the glory of the Athenians who managed to overcome the advances of the mighty Atlantis – thus glorifying themselves in its wake.

Atlantis did exist. Atlantis still does

[edit on 9/6/10 by LiveForever8]

Its not her discovery at all.
The theory that Thera could be the location of the factual atlantis has been around for ages.

I think if Plato was referring to the Minoans he would have spoke of them in that terminology because well, the Minoans are pretty much one of the parent civilizations of the later Greeks which Plato was a member.

I really personally believe Atlantis (IF it existed), is Antarctica.

There was a great flood in Antarctica, and then all that water froze over. And now its a massive thick ice sheet.

He said there were "portentous floods" at the island. The island of Thera seems far to small to even gauge a flood, as all the water would have run off into the sea almost immediately.

However in a large continent-island such as Antarctica, you can have numerous devastating floods, and the place is so large you could see totally different weather patterns all over the place.

I don't know though, no one really does.

But I have always disliked the Thera theory and have considered the Antarctica theory to be the only viable one.

If Atlantis was truly something like an offshoot of the Minoans, than they certainly did not have flying vehicles, atomic weapons, or other advanced technology as rumor persists.

If it is Thera, than it's not Atlantis at all, its Minoa.

If it's Antarctica, well, we don't know anything about it yet.

In spite of the rough similarities, which as most Atlantis fans know can be found all over the place, I still think that if you're going to call something "Atlantis," you pretty much have to follow what Plato said, and if it doesn't fit his description then it doesn't count.

And first and foremost among his descriptions is that it was a large island in the Atlantic ocean (hence the name "Atlantis"). So that's where you look. Pretty much straight west from the Straights of Gibraltar. And that puts it in the Azores, where Plato says only the tops of the Atlantean mountains can now be seen.

So there it is. Or was. And coming up with ways a larger island could have disappeared is a lot easier now that we understand the processes of climate change, asteroid strikes, plate tectonics, tsunamis, and other kinds of large catastrophes.

It ain't Thera/Santorini, for a number of obvious reasons.

[edit on 9-6-2010 by Blue Shift]

Additional:

Plato - Timaeus
Plato - Critias
Plato
Atlantis - Wikipedia
BBC Article
Minoan Civ
Santorini (Thera)
Critias (Dialogue)
Daily Mail (Article)
Santorini Archaeology
Akrotiri Digs

reply to post by coredrill

Originally posted by coredrill
Its not her discovery at all.
The theory that Thera could be the location of the factual atlantis has been around for ages.

I don't believe I said it was her discovery, did I?

Originally posted by Blue Shift
And first and foremost among his descriptions is that it was a large island in the Atlantic ocean (hence the name "Atlantis").

The name Atlantis derives from the Greek God - Atlas - who was named King of Atlantis. It has nothing to do with the Atlantic Ocean.



[edit on 9/6/10 by LiveForever8]

Hey mate, I haven't had a chance to read your thread but I kow I'll love it. Well done.

I just thought I'd stop by and post a link to my thread:

Akrotiri, the Minoan “Pompeii” - buried by the eruption of Thera (twice the size of Krakatoa!)


since it's relevant to yours.

I reckon Atlantis threads rock, S+F Buddy!

Originally posted by muzzleflash
He said there were "portentous floods" at the island. The island of Thera seems far to small to even gauge a flood, as all the water would have run off into the sea almost immediately.

This island of Thera suffered a MASSIVE volcanic eruption which caused earthquakes and HUGE tsunamis!

Ash fell as far north as The Black Sea, as far east as central Turkey and as far south as the Nile Delta.

Global temps dropped effecting plant growth as far off as Ireland.

Tsunamis 65 feet above sea level spread five miles inland.

It was a GIGANTIC eruption - well worthy of destroying a complete civilisation.

LF, your a star - when I heard about the thread, I thought you were just going to just put up some images and the link to the video but hell, you just summed it all up.

The part about the rocks scared me - that was so precise, although the story has been passed down for 1000 years, was it? Red, black, white? That was scary.

Kiwifoot, your thread goes beautifully with this one XD

Muzzleflash, I haven't dwelled too deeply into the Antarctica thread, I shall, but I gotta say that the Thera belief is a very, very, very serious contender, in my opinion.

The tsunami caused by the eruption, was thought to be similar to the one recently in Sri Lanka where it killed 70,000 people I think? If that was the effect - the eruption must have been something. It's thought to be one of the worst in history. 60km cubic of pyroclastic flow on the seafloor. o_O. The effects even reached Ireland - something about reduced plant growth due to the ash. No matter if it was the basis of Atlantis, this eruption deserves to be remembered.

Plato, the first person whom the Atlantis myth has been dictated (I believe?), in his writing it depicts the very story, probably distorted in some ways, brought down through generations and generations...and Thera fits with much of the stuff, as LF has shown.

But as said on the doc, Plato may have used mythology and history to make his own philosophical points known; as an allegory to show how too much pride may cause a fall.

What I find intriguing is...where have all the Atlanteans gone? I mean, they could be on another site "looking at the downfall of their city" and would be found somewhere else, but maybe someone have left? I'm sure with such a stable country, economy wise, they would have people in Crete and surely, there should be some evacuees? Possibly travelled to Crete? And wasn't there evidence of an organised departure? (I have a bad memory, guys - apologise for that).

But once again LF, great thread!

Originally posted by BlackPoison94
What I find intriguing is...where have all the Atlanteans gone? I mean, they could be on another site "looking at the downfall of their city" and would be found somewhere else, but maybe someone have left? I'm sure with such a stable country, economy wise, they would have people in Crete and surely, there should be some evacuees? Possibly travelled to Crete? And wasn't there evidence of an organised departure? (I have a bad memory, guys - apologise for that).

Cheers BP, glad you enjoyed it

Where have they gone? It's a very good question indeed.

The Minoans (who in this theory are the real Atlanteans) already inhabited the island of Crete but it is very reasonable that many of the evacuees fled there.

However, the Minoan civilisation were most probably overrun by Mycenaean Greece shortly after the eruption. So, many of the Minoans (Atlanteans) would have integrated into Greek society...which would explain how the story was passed down the generations and eventually to Plato. Especially considering that Plato's native Athens is an important Mycenaean site.

Another possibility is the infamous Sea Peoples who caused political unrest in the area after the eruption.

Two of the peoples who settled in the Levant have traditions that may connect them to Crete: the Tjeker and the Peleset (Philistines). The Tjeker may have left Crete to settle in Anatolia and left there to settle Dor. According to the Old Testament, the Israelite God brought the Philistines out of Caphtor. This view is accepted by the mainstream of Biblical and classical scholarship as Crete, but there are alternative minority theories.

Crete at the time was populated by peoples speaking many languages, among which were Mycenaean Greek and Eteocretan, the descendant of the language of the Minoans. It is possible, but by no means certain, that these two peoples spoke Eteocretan.

It is also worth noting that recent examinations of the eruption of the Santorini Volcano occurred very close (estimated between 1660-1613 B.C.) to the first appearances of the Sea People in Egypt. The Volcano and its aftermath (fires, Tsunami, weather changes and famines) would have had wide ranging impacts across the Mediterranian, Levant and particularly Greece and could have been the impetus for invasions of other regions of the Mediterranian.

en.wikipedia.org...

The Sea People also tried to infiltrate and control Egypt at this time too. This could also explain how the ancient story found it's way into Egypt....eventually being picked up by Solon:

Critias claims that his accounts of ancient Athens and Atlantis stem from a visit to Egypt by the legendary Athenian lawgiver Solon in the 6th century BC. In Egypt, Solon met a priest of Sais, who translated the history of ancient Athens and Atlantis, recorded on papyri in Egyptian hieroglyphs, into Greek. According to Plutarch, Solon met with "Psenophis of Heliopolis, and Sonchis the Saite, the most learned of all the priests"; Plutarch refers here to events that would have happened five centuries before he wrote of them.

en.wikipedia.org...

Originally posted by BlackPoison94
What I find intriguing is...where have all the Atlanteans gone?

they went both east and west - to settle what is now Egypt and also to the Yucatan where they seeded the Meso-American cultures!

Lemuria, whose destruction was in the Pacific ocean many millennia prior to Atlantis, also had an exodus. those who escaped seeded both the Asian cultures (Japan, etc) and others on the east (of Lemuria) such as Easter Island and the northwestern U.S.

that is why the similarities in architecture (Atlantean Pyramids) and monuments (Easter Island statues and Native American totem poles)

I visited Santorini (Thera) back in the early '90s and visited loads of the sites there. Its my favourite place on the planet - and even has its own Ayres Rock that changes colour in the sunset.

Whilst I can see some of the evidence the fact that the Minoan society coexisted with the Therean society up until the major eruption Im not sure the time lines match well enough.

Im currently reading another theory that suggests the the upper reaches of the Black Sea / Bosphoros works as another theory. This is however based on a bigger and much more controversial theory tied in with the idea of a Saline inversion in the Med about 4,000 years before the Theran eruption.

So for me the theory is is still just that - although I adore Bettany Hughes works - her documentary on Sparta is awesome and can be found on YOU tube - but be warned its 3 hours long!

Originally posted by LiveForever8

Originally posted by Blue Shift
And first and foremost among his descriptions is that it was a large island in the Atlantic ocean (hence the name "Atlantis").

The name Atlantis derives from the Greek God - Atlas - who was named King of Atlantis. It has nothing to do with the Atlantic Ocean.

Actually, nobody is quite sure where the "ATL" prefix/suffix phoneme comes from. The Paleolithic "atl-atl" device used to increase the force of a thrown spear is around 16,000 years old, and is linked to both the NahuATL people of Central Mexico, however, one of the older examples of the device has been found in southern France. To the Nahuatl, "ATL" referred to "water."

It could very well be that "ATL," when used for the name of "Atlas," was to indicate that this god lived very far away, past and under the western "ATLantic" sea.

Maybe some smart Atlanean was the first to discover and put the atl-atl to use, and it spread on both side of the Atlantic. The dates are right, the distribution's right. Anyway, it's interesting to speculate.

[edit on 10-6-2010 by Blue Shift]

reply to post by Blue Shift


Regarding the Atlantic Ocean:

The first part of its name refers to the Atlas of Greek mythology, making the Atlantic the "Sea of Atlas".

The oldest known mention of this name is contained in The Histories of Herodotus around 450 BC

The Atlas Mountains were also named after him - as it was from here that he supported the heavens.

This makes sense as Atlas' father, Iapetus, was a Titan famed for their strenght and power while his mother, Clymene, was an Oceanid (daughter of the Ocean).

However the Atlas Plato wrote of was not the same Atlas as the one stated above.

Plato wrote of a different Atlas, a mortal Atlas, son of Poseidon (who was the god of the sea, storms, and, as "Earth-Shaker) which fits nicely into the idea that Atlantis was a maritime civilisation who would eventually fall victim of an earth shaking volcanic eruption.

I still favour the Thera theory over an island in the middle of the Atlantic ocean. I don't believe that something as simple as Atlantic and Atlantis sounding the same should be sufficient evidence. I understand that Plato did point Atlantis in that direction but I still think we need to put ourselves in ancient Greece (especially considering the politics) if we are to truly understand what Plato was meaning.

Is there any evidence of an island existing in the Atlantic in the recent past? I haven't looked into it fully

Good job, OP, I will read through it tomorrow as right now is dawn and I need some sleep

Just pray *he* doesn't find this thread or you can kiss it goodbye! (Don't ask who *he* is, when you see the endless meaningless posts you will know

coredrill knows!

[edit on 10-6-2010 by Maegnas]

reply to post by Maegnas


Thanks

Haha, I know exactly who 'he' is and have been awaiting his appearance since I posted the thread. It's a miracle he hasn't hijacked it yet

As long as you keep distracting him in the other thread I should be alright

Don't say his name...he'll haunt this thread forever

And thanks LF, you unravelled all the confusing parts for me

Now that I have read the whole thread (World Cup opening got in the way, also Tribal Wars steals a lot of my time too ) I can say that it is really a well thought, well presented idea!

The thing is the only "real" approach we have for Atlantis is Plato. All the rest is conjecture, assumption, theory, hangover, whatever. so, sticking to the only real thing we have concerning Atlantis (which could very well be a symbolic reference to exalt Athenians) we can safely say that Antarctica was never intended as the "home" of Atlantis (the simple reason being that Plato had no knowledge of Antarctica or he would have mentioned it somewhere!).

One other thing we can safely say is no Atlantean airplanes, nukes and all that jazz, where is a reference for that in Plato? As for the volcano being too small to cause considerable floods in a full scale eruption, there are signs in the surrounding islands of waves up to 1500 feet high (the seashells that were deposited on mountain slopes near the shore are found up to that height from the sea level). Now, I don't mean that ALL the waves were that high but some must have been as the deposition often times is in the opposite slope, the one facing inland, on mountains over 1000 ft high. And this flood IS remembered in the Greek mythology, it is Deukalion's (NO, this does NOT mean "ten lions" in Greek, maybe in Aejorian it does! ) flood.

Take a close look on the first photo posted in the OP. To estimate the force and destructive power of the eruption, imagine a circle engulfing both land parts shown in a pretty much circular shape, that's the cone of the volcano. Can you see how much of it is gone??

Off to watch the second half of France vs Uruguay!

LiveForever8;

The name Atlantis derives from the Greek God - Atlas - who was named King of Atlantis. It has nothing to do with the Atlantic Ocean.

I can relate to your reasoning that Atlas "may" have been named independent of the Atlantic Ocean, but his name does relate with the Atlantic since they "claimed" that the Atlantic Ocean was named after Atlas. We cannot also exclude the possibility that the Atlantic and Atlas were named after the island of Atlantis.

Critias;

And he named them all; the eldest, who was the first king, he named Atlas, and after him the whole island and the ocean were called Atlantic.

As member muzzleflash commented, I agree that Plato would have mentioned Crete, maybe not Minoans since that was a name coined by Prof.Schliemann like Minos also. Their Egyptian name eludes me at the moment, but it something like Kuretes.

I don't doubt that the Santorini event, like Helike also, may have provided food for thought, but I do doubt Santorini as Atlantis. I believe the Minoans like the Egyptians, reflect Atlantis because they are Atlantean tribes.
Not only is this evident from the level of Atlantean control mentioned upto Italy and to Egypt, but in truth the Atlanteans actualy controlled the entire Mediterranean, including Crete. We know this because Athena and Neith are in fact Atlantean Libyans.

Thera erupted ca.1628 while Deukalion's flood is only a mere 100 years later at 1529.bC as evidenced by the Marmour Parium. It may be that these are the same events.

Here in this statement, we see that Solon could only account upto 1800.bC for Phoroneus and the Deukalion flood, with no mention or knowledge of Atlantis. We would then perceive that Atlantis was prior to that time.
This is also further acknowledged by the destruction being the third before that of Deukalion.

Timaeus;

On one occasion, wishing to draw them on to speak of antiquity, he (Solon) began to tell about the most ancient things in our part of the world-about Phoroneus, who is called "the first man," and about Niobe; and after the Deluge, of the survival of Deucalion and Pyrrha; and he traced the genealogy of their descendants, and reckoning up the dates, tried to compute how many years ago the events of which he was speaking happened.

Critias;

and then occurred the extraordinary inundation, which was the third before the great destruction of Deucalion.

It is not only those comments that verify for us that Santorini was not Atlantis, but also because Atlantis was past the Pillars of Hercules that are confirmed at Gibraltar from Solon and upto Plato or even since Homer.
The Phoenicians also invaded Gades/Spain ca.1100-800.bC. There is also evidence of Greeks searching for Amber ca.1900.bC in Iberia or for tin at the Cassiteride islands of England as suggestive of sailing through the straites. (dartmouth univ. Aegean studies)

Evermore, let not these things deter your research into the Minoans or Santorini, for every stone turned over is a good stone and the more evidence we can surmass the better to shut up those whining critics and non-believers like in my threads here and elsewhere!

By the way, LiveForever8, if you listen to those non atlantis believers like Maegnas, coredrill or harte who are the real ones that hijack threads and disrupt important research, as noted by your comment of me, then your ship may be prone to sinking.

Small things amuse small minds, like theirs.

reply to post by AeJor_Mn




I do agree with the OP that Santorini/Thera is MOST probably the basis of the Atlantis Myth.
But, if you read critias thoroughly you could come to understanding that it is not a X marks the spot kind of literature but rather a philosophical one and the myth of Atlantis is used as an example in it.
given the imagination of any author, Plato is sure to amalgam ted a lot of myths into one, with exaggeration.


Yes, Harte, Maegnas, or poor ol me are non Atlantis believers - we do not believe the crap that's being discussed out on the net of the like - Super Advanced Civilization, Cradle of Humanity, nor we do believe in people claiming to be Priest of Atlantis like the dolt John Peinel or people like the poster above who claim descent from Atlantis and claim themselves to be of royal Atlantean blood line.
We are people with Common sense. we do agree that Plato wrote about Atlantis. period. Nothing more.
We don't believe in Lemuria which is a hypotheitcal island visualized by Philip Sclater for a thought experiment. We don't believe in any interconnection between a Hypothetical island and a Mythical continent.

Use your Common Sense!! that's a good motto.






[edit on 11/6/10 by coredrill]