Egyptian Granite

Did anyone see the documentary on Discovery about the Scorpion king, they disscused the idea of him being the inventor of the first tomb that was the influence for the step pyramids. His tomb design was the first step toward the step pyramids or something like that.
I had the chance as a youngster to vist the Egyptian display many years ago at the London museum. An amazing trip being able to see up close some of the pots and jars like those in the pics.

Link to the show about the Scorpion King.

Edited to add link



[edit on 8-6-2010 by Kurokage]

Originally posted by Maegnas

1. Who vouches for this unparalleled accuracy? Is it really that accurate?

Cant we see that with the naked eye?

Originally posted by Skyfloating

Originally posted by spacevisitor

Is it not remarkable that most if not all of those marvelous works of craftsmanship where found in the oldest stone pyramid in Egypt - the first one built.

Yes it is and it once again confirms the idea that the further back you go, the more advanced thing get (as evidenced by the Great Pyramids themselves).

I know, and that is precisely the reason for why I said that.

Hi

May I introduce you to this thread called : 2010: Wisdom Keeper Prophecies *Must Watch*

I'm sorry it is all of topic... then again it's not.
In the video the woman tells about unimaginable changes that will proof as a fact that there truly were older civilizations. I can't confirm if she speaks the truth...

reply to post by Skyfloating
It's not a mystery how Egyptians carved granite and it's certainly not a recent (100 years!?) development...that's fairly misleading.

Not one Egyptologist has been able to demonstrate the workmanship with the tools the ancient Egyptians were supposed to be using.

The Hall of Maat has a lengthy paper, illustrated and referenced, that refutes your OP claim that nobody knows how they did it. It specifically disproves the claim in the above quote with references to research that demonstrates how they could achieve the results in your images.

These links and explanations have been posted before. Byrd has also posted them. Several threads have discussed them. IIRC BlackMarketeer and Punkinworks have posted detailed descriptions with images on threads about the carving of diorite too.

Ancient Egyptian coring barrels would have been made of copper, either cast or cold-worked until the Middle Kingdom, when bronze tools became more readily available. Some ancient core holes still contain weathered copper or bronze residue and rock tailings/abrasive (Lucas and Harris 1962, Stocks 1986).

The ancient Egyptians began to make tools of smelted copper by cold-working and casting starting around 3500 BC (Hoffman 1980). The technique of cold-working copper into sheets by hammering existed in early dynastic Egypt, where thin-walled copper vessels have been found (Petrie 1977). The ability of the ancient Egyptians to make copper and bronze tubes, either with sheeting or by casting, is demonstrated in examples of cylindrical vessels (Petrie 1974b) and pipes for plumbing (Wilkinson 2001). The thicknesses of the coring barrels are inferred from tubular slots left on the bottom of stone objects (Fig. 6), and were on the order of 1 to 5 mm (Arnold 1991). Casting of copper tubes with 5 mm thick walls can be accomplished with molds of sand (Stocks 1999).

Ancient Copper Coring Drills

Check out Ancient Egyptian Materials and Industries
By A. Lucas

Petrie is a popular source of quotes on the fringe websites. In 1881 (30 years before your '100 years' claim), he described the methods of Egyptian granite carving....

"That the blades of the saw were of bronze, we know from the green staining on the sides of the saw cuts, and on grains of sand left in a saw cut. The forms of the tools were straight saws, circular saws, tubular drills, and lathes. The straight saws varied from .03 to .2 inch thick, according to the work; the largest were 8 feet or more in length..." "...No. 6, a slice of diorite bearing equidistant and regular grooves of circular arcs, parallel to one another; these grooves have been nearly polished out by cross grinding, but are still visible. The only feasible explanation of this piece is that it was produced by a circular saw."

"These tubular drills vary in thickness from 1/4 inch to 5 inches in diameter, and from 1/30 to 1/5 inch thick. The smallest hole yet found in granite is 2 inch diameter."

Mechanical Methods - Petrie's Comments

It isn't a mystery, the implication that they had power tools is over-egging the pudding.

Edit to add: Best Conspiracy!!! Ancient Diorite sic cut



[edit on 8-6-2010 by Kandinsky]

reply to post by Kandinsky


I just wish there were some Model or Video or Picturebook demonstrating how easy it was to make these shapes and forms. Words can deceive. Demonstrating it cant.

[edit on 19-6-2010 by Skyfloating]

reply to post by Skyfloating
I agree with that. The paper I linked has extensive images taken from paintings and reliefs. These have been instrumental in leading Egyptologists to the conclusions they have about working granite. Naturally, finding copper filings in the recesses of granite statuary and coffers is pretty indicative too.

There's a rather good book that might appeal to. It contains plenty of photos of Denys Stocks reconstructing the tools from original depictions. I've thumbed it in my Uni library and only found out today it costs £85 on Amazon...guess it won't be going on the shelves in a hurry...Experiments in Egyptian Archaeology

Gobekli Tepi. Provisionally dated back to around 12kya. The stone monuments were carved by people before even copper was discovered. Perhaps they used meteoritic iron? Hard to say. The point I'm trying to make is that the Egyptians weren't new to stone-masonry. People had been working stone for thousands of years already...it's fair to assume they were at least equal to our modern craftsmen.

ETA: Deja vu posting this link...How to Cut Granite with Sand!

[edit on 19-6-2010 by Kandinsky]

I'm curious if it's possible to make abrasive blasted media tools (ie: sand blaster) using bronze age materials and methods? Would a steam boiler hooked up to a hopper made of pottery filled with sand that jets a steam/sand mix through tubes made of copper actually work?

Instead of steam, could something like bellows in some form drive the abrasive?

(I think it would be interesting to try making a few rather crude apparatus with known ancient methods and materials, to see if any would even be successful.)

The principle behind operation doesn't seem that terribly complicated, and a lot of modern detailed stonework is done that way. (But with compressed air instead of steam). Could ancient people have figured out such methods?

Maybe they never did it that way, but could it or should it be ruled out completely?

Ah well, it still is curious how they did the stonework whether through sheer manpower or with other lost (to history) tools and methods.

I think again, this is the whole proplem with Egyptology. Several people on this thread are making claims that it was in fact possible to cut these materials etc. I have to say that I doubt you have any machining knowledge or you would see things in a different light.

If this subject interests you, THEN PLEASE READ CHRISTOPHER DUNNS BOOK. Also Fingerprint of the Gods puts a VERY good case forward.

The main thing to consider here when you guys are proposing your theories about using copper tools with harened tips etc is that there is no way on this EARTH that you would reach the level of accuracy that the Egyptians did. Also the time to do so would be immense. You have failed to mention the feed rates that would have had to be achieved as well?
I also find it interesting that you believe that the Egyptians could have developed this rather advanced (yet ineffective) method of drilling, before as yet even developing the wheel and pulleys etc.

Even a primary school student could deduce that with the Evidence available, the so called expert Egytyptologist has got his version of events catagorically wrong.

I think the best thing for everyone of us to do is to lose are ego and accept that we are not the smartest people to have ever lived, and look at the evidence and see the truth. Good thread starfloating!

They appear to be worked by a router or perhaps a lathe,no way could hand tools do that,and as far as using water,still water would have to be manipulated with an adjustable nozzle,chances of free hand not a chance IMO

this one shows stone cutting @ around 4 mins



and continues in this video



and continues

[edit on 1-7-2010 by Zeta Reticulan]

Originally posted by Skyfloating
"It seems that the drill marks on the sides of the sarcophagus in the King's Chamber imply that the soft copper Egyptian drills apparently advanced about 500 times faster than possible with the toughest modern drills! There is something amiss here." - Science Frontiers

Actually, the source of this claim is Dunn... and he doesn't explain how he figured out how fast a drill drilled. We can't tell the difference between a hole drilled at 200 RPM and one drilled at 400 RPM. I'd like to know his source.

... worked piece of Granite, according to the inscriptions, depicts a door to other Dimensions

I'd like to gently point out that if you read the title of the JPG, it clearly says that this is the door to the afterlife and not to other dimensions. No "door to other dimensions" has been found (ever) in ancient Egypt. The Duat (afterlife) isn't a dimension. It's the land of the dead.

Last but not least, we have the technology to drill granite since only one century. Up to now there have been no satisfactory explanations on how the Egyptians did it:

Chris explained it on the page you first cited, and the ability to carve granite has been around ever since ancient Egypt. Hindus and many others knew the technique:
www.hinduyuva.org...


[edit on 1-7-2010 by Byrd]

During watching the video series "Ancient Aliens - The Evidence", and watching part four, I found these findings of Christopher Dunn quite remarkable.

His overview start at 6:30, but the findings which I find so remarkable start at 8:00.

It has to do with what clearly looks like a saw mark in a big granite block what seems to show that it could be made by the use of a big round saw of some 35 feet in diameter.



www.youtube.com...

Here are some snapshots of it.

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/ba6edc5fccf4.jpg[/atsimg]

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/bb8078be2993.jpg[/atsimg]

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/e5da26bb4c72.jpg[/atsimg]

He concluded that due the shape of this “cut” it looks as if it was made by the use of a big round saw of 35 feet in diameter.

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/57474ec07089.jpg[/atsimg]

Quite remarkable don’t you think?



[edit on 8/8/10 by spacevisitor]

reply to post by spacevisitor
Hiya Space, I wish Dunn would stumble upon a University library and check out some of the academic books and papers on Egyptian construction techniques. He's taken second best and allowed his first impressions of these grand designs to dictate his conclusions.

He's gone from the 'wow moment,' to incredulity based on lack of information. Rather than fill in the gaps and take advantage of the information...it's hi-tech machinery all the way.

He overlooks all the quarry evidence that Egyptians used stone hammers and copper chisels. The signs of their use on various blocks and statuary are there to see. The chisels and stone hammers are found in debris piles in the quarries.

Stone hammers
[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/a3264d012994.jpg[/atsimg]

Copper Chisel
[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/162f517c7b23.jpg[/atsimg]digita l Egypt copyright

Unfinished obelisk with clear indentations from stone hammers...
[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/40643833e853.jpg[/atsimg]

For Chris Dunn's conclusion to fit the facts, he needs to explain how someone's using advanced steel machinery when all the evidence points to copper, wood and stone tool use.

(Cheers for the ATS-mix Colm Kelleher advice...it's loaded up on my phone for listening to in the car )

Originally posted by Kandinsky
For Chris Dunn's conclusion to fit the facts, he needs to explain how someone's using advanced steel machinery when all the evidence points to copper, wood and stone tool use.

Hi Kandinsky, it’s exactly as you said here, all the evidence points to copper, wood and stone tool use.

But all that evidence doesn’t proof indisputable that all these Egyptian stonework’s are manufactured by it.

It’s the same as with the UFO phenomenon.

All the evidence points to the presence of highly advanced intelligent controlled crafts in our skies, but that doesn’t proof indisputable these highly advanced intelligent controlled crafts are controlled by intelligent non human beings.

But when you look at that partly circular shaped cut in that granite block, what kind of copper, wood or stone tool other then such a round saw could have been used to make such a shape in your opinion?

Originally posted by Kandinsky
(Cheers for the ATS-mix Colm Kelleher advice...it's loaded up on my phone for listening to in the car

)

It’s very interesting to listen to, but don’t let it lose your concentration on the road. [I mean that]

I would propose that one of you, after reading Dunns book and his claims, to actually go out and try and cut rock with a peice of copper formed into a tool. I guarantee you that you will soon re-evaluate the egytologists opinions, who has never worked with these materials in their life.

Originally posted by Skyfloating
reply to post by Kandinsky

 

I just wish there were some Model or Video or Picturebook demonstrating how easy it was to make these shapes and forms. Words can deceive. Demonstrating it cant.

[edit on 19-6-2010 by Skyfloating]

Actually, videos CAN deceive! Just watch a few episodes of "Mythbusters" where they take on viral videos found on the Internet.

Kandisky got here before I did and linked the material I would have linked. As others pointed out, time had different value back then, and things made for the grave of a king or for the king's use or his household's use were expected to be unusual and expensive (hard to make/come by.) Stone bowls and jars and so forth were only found at temples and in graves of the highest social classes -- and they got only the best of those.

The makers/artists would have been well rewarded for these things.

So... if you were a sculptor and you knew that (say) God-king Semerkhet was going to pay you the equivalent of a million dollars for a really nice and unusual granite bowl and the governor of Busiris would give the equivalent of $8,000 for one really nice alabaster bowl (3 weeks of work for you and an assistant), would you take the 3-6 weeks to do the projects?

We moderns are impatient. I have done stonework by hand (polishing opals and other things) and it's very tedious without a machine but it can be done and you can make some pretty things. If someone was going to "set me up for life" as their official "maker of very pretty jars in stone" you bet I'd hop at it, even if I could only turn out one bowl every 6 months.

Anyway, yes, the academics know how it was done. But television producers and writers find it easier to say "oooh! nobody knows how it was done" than to go hunt up a bunch of busy and dull scholars who can explain it to them.

Originally posted by carlitomoore
I would propose that one of you, after reading Dunns book and his claims, to actually go out and try and cut rock with a peice of copper formed into a tool. I guarantee you that you will soon re-evaluate the egytologists opinions, who has never worked with these materials in their life.

Here's a link to a conference where Egyptologists are reporting on crafting various things from glass to harnessing horses to making garlands to workig metal and knapping flints. This isn't the only conference of its kind, by the way:
egyptology.blogspot.com...

Even NOVA investigated this and found that it was perfectly possible (provided you had people around to resharpen your hardened copper tool at regular intervals)
en.wikipedia.org...

I'm sure the video is somewhere ... maybe someone can find it and link it?

The book, "Geopolymer Chemistry and Applications" By Joseph Davidovits mentions experiments in replicating faience.

So, to answer your question, yes they have done this sort of work (or have watched and taken notes as people more adept at the work did it in front of them.)

Originally posted by carlitomoore
I would propose that one of you, after reading Dunns book and his claims, to actually go out and try and cut rock with a peice of copper formed into a tool. I guarantee you that you will soon re-evaluate the egytologists opinions, who has never worked with these materials in their life.

Unless I'm mistaken, Dunn himself cut a core from a piece of granite on that pseudohistorical Crockumentary "Ancient Aliens" on the History channel.

So, it appears you don't know what your talking about. It was done right there on TV by the claimant himself using only a copper saw.

Didn't even use a bow - the guy had a "T" handle on the saw so he could make it look harder than it actually would have been - makes it seem more like they couldn't have done it.

Of course, they did. We have the saws and the cores that came out of the holes. What do you think, the Egyptians excreted granite?

Harte

When I was younger I remember a show on PBS where this guy would do projects by hand, no electric power tools. I do not remember the name of the show, it was on when I was like 10 or so and am now 36. Though he used no electric power tools he did use at least one belt driven tool that was operated by the continuing motion of pushing down on a lever with his foot. It was able to do the same thing as an electric power tool (doubt it was same RPMs though) with ease. I believe the idea behind the show was to demonstrate how carpentry was done colonial America times.

This was wood and not granite, but it would not surprise me if the ancient granite workers were not as ingenious as the developer of the tool this fellow used on his show. I generally think back to this show when people talk about machining that could not possibly be done in the time of the Egyptians with the tools that they had available.