Clam boat pulls up canisters of mustard gas off NY, crew sickened

Clam boat pulls up canisters off NY, crew sickened

news.yahoo.com

"A fishing boat dredging for clams off New York's Long Island pulled up 10 canisters, including one that broke open and released an unidentified chemical that caused two crew members to blister and struggle to breathe, the U.S. Coast Guard said Monday"

"After learning of the incident, the Coast Guard issued a "captain of the port order," a rare command instructing the boat to return to port."

It was not immediately clear what chemical was involved and experts were trying to determine its nature

(visit the link for the full news article)



[edit on Jun 9th 2010 by Djarums]

There's not really much information but it looks like some industrial or possibly military chemicals have been discovered in place they are not supposed to end up.

The article says EMT's speculate that it could be mustard gas. That doesn't really fit because the crew of the ship would have recognized mustard gas as something harmful immediately and gotten rid of it right away, instead of waiting for people to be affected by it. Even if they didn't know it was mustard gas a yellow brown gas that smells horrible should evoke immediate alarm.


news.yahoo.com
(visit the link for the full news article)

[edit on 8-6-2010 by thedarklingthrush]

Admin edit of title, per member's request, to reflect update in story.

[edit on Jun 9th 2010 by Djarums]

This brings back a very scary and unpleasant memory, when I edited Counter-terrorism training manuals (for First Responders) for the Center for Domestic Preparedness, now Homeland Security, here in Alabama, at Fort McClellan....


As per usual, the classes consisted of a trip through a gas chamber in full HazMat gear. Actual gases and poisons were released and of course, were kept in storage and carefully handled by the great staff I worked with, a bunch of really excellent ex-military and Department of Justice employees.

One afternoon, two of my closest buddies were accidentally exposed to a nerve gas while moving canisters. They experienced these same symptoms, although the incident was quickly identified and contained. A small leak in a valve had nearly poisoned both, who got a trip to the hospital out of it; fortunately, they were in open air when it happened, moving the small, harmless-looking canisters to a storage area from the delivery trucks.

This is very troubling indeed. What a message in a bottle....

[edit on 8-6-2010 by Copperflower]

Those are the classic symptoms of mustard gas.

The skin of victims of mustard gas blistered, their eyes became very sore and they began to vomit. Mustard gas caused internal and external bleeding and attacked the bronchial tubes, stripping off the mucous membrane. This was extremely painful and most soldiers had to be strapped to their beds. It usually took a person four or five weeks to die of mustard gas exposure

en.wikipedia.org...

It would seem unlikely that those canisters could have remained intact underwater for nearly 100 years, but that's sure what it sounds like.

Originally posted by GradyPhilpott
Those are the classic symptoms of mustard gas.

The skin of victims of mustard gas blistered, their eyes became very sore and they began to vomit. Mustard gas caused internal and external bleeding and attacked the bronchial tubes, stripping off the mucous membrane. This was extremely painful and most soldiers had to be strapped to their beds. It usually took a person four or five weeks to die of mustard gas exposure

en.wikipedia.org...

It would seem unlikely that those canisters could have remained intact underwater for nearly 100 years, but that's sure what it sounds like.

Countless chemicals could produce the symptoms. You can't narrow it down to mustard gas just based on the symptoms presented.

I just have to assume what ever it was colorless and possibly odorless if they didn't notice it right away.

edit: I couldn't find any other stories about this that weren't just this same story presented by a different publication, hopefully there will be a follow up, or some accounts by the people on the crew.
[edit on 8-6-2010 by thedarklingthrush]

[edit on 8-6-2010 by thedarklingthrush]

Originally posted by thedarklingthrush

Countless chemicals could produce the symptoms.

Name three chemicals that would produce this cluster of symptoms that are likely to be housed in canisters found on the ocean floor.

It sounds to me to be munitions and the gas used in WWI that produced these symptoms was mustard gas, all of which was delivered by sea.

It's fine for you to question my logic, but it quite another to do so without offering some alternative.

Yes, I could be wrong, but let's hear the other side of the argument.

[edit on 2010/6/8 by GradyPhilpott]

Silver orthophosphate (Ag3PO4)
www.pesticideinfo.org...

Looks like its toxic :S
This will be shot down quite easily by the Petrochemical Lobbyists...

Good news is that someone makes it, so it should be simple enough to get a hold of some for home-experimental purposes xD

(Maybe that's why the pesticide info was top of google results?)

[edit on 8-6-2010 by myster0]

lol.. wrong thread (was supposed to be www.abovetopsecret.com... .. still kinda relevant I guess.. toxin's and all )

[edit on 8-6-2010 by myster0]

This is interesting...i mean usualy when a company or hopistol acts careless they just dump thier waste without containing it in something. this sounds like someone got ahold of some nasty stuff somehow nad tried to hide it, coming back for it later on* or took it and wanted to get rid of it completely.

Originally posted by GradyPhilpott

Originally posted by thedarklingthrush

Countless chemicals could produce the symptoms.

Name three chemicals that would produce this cluster of symptoms that are likely to be housed in canisters found on the ocean floor.

It sounds to me to be munitions and the gas used in WWI that produced these symptoms was mustard gas, all of which was delivered by sea.

It's fine for you to question my logic, but it quite another to do so without offering some alternative.

Yes, I could be wrong, but let's hear the other side of the argument.

[edit on 2010/6/8 by GradyPhilpott]

Chlorine, phosgene, Trichloromethyl chloroformate, , all used by the allies before 1920.

There's not enough evidence to assume that it's anything. My logic is that if it was mustard gas they would have noticed this yellowish brown foul smelling gas and gotten rid of these canisters. If you want to speculate, it has to be at least colorless gas, and probably one with a faint odor or that is odorless. Otherwise the crew would have recognized the danger faster. It took them several hours in this case.




[edit on 8-6-2010 by thedarklingthrush]

I'm just wondering if this was a directed effort to befoul a known productive clam bed. Obviously they were dredging in an area nown to have clams, so one would have to assume that anything other than clams in the bed could have been dumped there since the last dredging occured. You drop a dozen canisters of toxin into a shelfish bed knowing that shelfish are the oceans cesspool filters and, once said clams are harvested and sold, you have likely sickened hundreds of people if not more.

Considering what a wonderfull job some folks are doing poisoning the seafood in the Gulf of Mexico, it wouldn't be outside the realm of possibility.

Grady makes a hell of a lot of sense, to those who think they would notice, well, if it was contained and they opened it, they would have noticed after they opened it and a little to late. Also if they could smell it, well you may not think twice of a rotten smell being drudged up from the bottom of the ocean into a clam boat, I have a feeling these guys live with rotten smells on a daily basis. Just my 2 cents

reply to post by thedarklingthrush


Very good points, however, having read up on the symptoms of each agent I keep referring back to this quote.

A fishing boat dredging for clams off New York's Long Island pulled up 10 canisters, including one that broke open and released an unidentified chemical that caused two crew members to blister and struggle to breathe, the U.S. Coast Guard said Monday. [emphasis mine]

Source

The canister broke open which wouldn't have given the crew much time react. The apparent first responses were to blister and have respiratory effects.

Mustard gas is known, at least in the military, as a blistering agent that affects the eyes, skin and the airways.

The others you mention have similar effects causing breathing difficulties and burns, but the description sounds more like mustard gas.

If you're a chemist, then you have a trump card, but chemical warfare and its agents were strong components of my military training, both in ROTC and the Marine Corps, and probably is still today.

Your argument is valid, but I believe that the data listed below support my case.

I also believe that this quote from the CDC is pertinent:

People may not know right away that they have been exposed, because sulfur mustard often has no smell or has a smell that might not cause alarm.

Mustard Gas

I am of course basing my case on the assumption that these canisters are in fact military munitions, when in fact they may not be, and the agent may not be any of the ones we've mentioned, as you stated above.

Still, based on the limited available information and my training, my money goes on mustard gas.

Trichloromethyl Chloroformate

Phosgene

Chlorine Gas

Mustard Gas

home.sandiego.edu...


[edit on 2010/6/8 by GradyPhilpott]

Originally posted by burdman30ott6
I'm just wondering if this was a directed effort to befoul a known productive clam bed. Obviously they were dredging in an area nown to have clams, so one would have to assume that anything other than clams in the bed could have been dumped there since the last dredging occured. You drop a dozen canisters of toxin into a shelfish bed knowing that shelfish are the oceans cesspool filters and, once said clams are harvested and sold, you have likely sickened hundreds of people if not more.

Considering what a wonderfull job some folks are doing poisoning the seafood in the Gulf of Mexico, it wouldn't be outside the realm of possibility.

Ah, now you're talking.

Due to the nature of our work, I cannot disclose any details whatsoever about what was contained in the manuals or the specifics of the course beyond what I have already mentioned. I received security clearance and signed an agreement to that effect.

However, most of the information is available in the public domain although one has to search and find it oneself.

Suffice it to say that there are many known chemicals being used and considered viable to terrorists worldwide, and that being odorless and colorless is a key advantage in these attacks.

Hence the training course.

Outside the box thinking counts here. One observation that may be helpful: WW2 chemicals are not needed, are outdated and usually easy to detect and identify, by virtue of being so well-known.

Therefore terrorists would not make those their first choice, if you catch my drift.

This article also seems related, it shows a map of weapons dump, and effects on animals:

scienceblogs.com...

You know I figured Mustard Gas the minute I heard the symptoms of blistering and respiratory problems.

I was curious what the shelf life of typical mustard gas is, and I found out it lasts a long time. French farmers are said to typically plow over some and get killed every once in awhile. It's been almost 100 years and that stuff is still deadly.

I am aware though that over time it loses it's potency.

Perhaps these canisters were in fact very old, and 90 year old mustard gas has probably lost some of it's integrity.

So perhaps the scent was not so strong, and the effects were slow to take hold. It also explains why only 2 of them men got sick.

This all fits with a weakened mustard gas sample.

What I am confused about is , if there were discarded canisters of chem weapons there, how did they get there?

Seems almost like they were intentionally put there. This could mean tons of things.

Maybe burdman is right. Maybe it is terrorism.

Yet another bad decision coming back to haunt us.

After the World Wars governments dumped this stuff literally by the train load into the oceans to get rid of it. The scary thing is in many cases they didn't even chart where they dumped it...just took it 'away'.

I was watching a program recently where a research sub found what looked like a lake of mercury on the bottom of the ocean. When they conducted tests they realized that it was a nerve agent that had been released from old cannisters. Since it was denser than the water it formed a silvery resevoir of pure poison.

No records of it ever having been dumped.

Now we've got fishermen pushing out into these areas? It's bad enough that this stuff is out there to begin with, now we're going to stir it up?

Great.

This reminds me of the environmental studies done on groundwater & aquifers in Florida. The original goal was to shut the tree-huggers up by showing that there was a quick turn around between dumping something on the surface and it entering the water supply.

No need to worry.

Problem was the study showed that it actually took a lot longer than anyone thought...the toxins entering the groundwater had been used on the the surface in the 1940's: They hadn't even reached the days when DDT was a good thing yet.

Like a tidal wave at sea, we are only seeing the faintest of ripples right now.


[edit on 8-6-2010 by [davinci]]

reply to post by Copperflower


Any of the UK guys who are ex MIl will be aware of the requirement to show proficency in NBC, by being exposed to CN I believe, rather than CS which most guys tended to call it anyway. An unpleasant shock for the wife when she opened the bag containing your NBC gear for washing was always a crowd pleaser too.

However IM pretty certain that the only country to train with and expose men to 'live' chemicals in training were the former USSR! Cant quite see run of the mill NBC running a quick spray of Sarin, Sonam or Tabun just for realism, so in what circumstances you would expect to find 'nerve gas' with a leaky valve in a training facility leaves me stumped.

Follow that up with your ' I'de tell you but I would have to kill you' answer to another member rings that big BS bell for me?

I know both the UK and the USA blatantly disregard the standing treaties on NBC testing and storage with impunity, but even thats in secure research facilities, not in some ill-maintained facility for 'first responders'!!!

Prove me wrong by all means...?

reply to post by muzzleflash

Maybe burdman is right. Maybe it is terrorism

yeh, and 'maybe'..
done by the same 'terrorists' that brought us 911.
COUwashingtondcGH.
sorry, somethin stuck in my throat.

Latest news makes it pretty evident that it is probably mustard gas, but not yet confirmed.

www.cbsnews.com...

O'Sullivan told WBZ the canisters had the date "1914" or "1918" on it.

How about this part:

Officials are also trying to find the 10 discarded canisters.

Oh, well, and of course this:

.... including one that broke open....

So, just to re-cap the day so far, we are leaking oil in the Gulf of Mexico in two places, and we are leaking an unknown chemical in the waters of Long Island which leads to/is on the Atlantic Ocean....

Sure....everything is normal.