Does this change your mind about illegal immigrants

I have read and seen much of Garret Hardin's work and tend to agree with a lot of it.

www.garretthardinsociety.org...

This was the first piece of literature of his I read and it completely changed my mind on several things. I would be interested to see if it changes anyone else's opinion or if it puts into words what you already feel. We can't continue to allow immigrants unfettered access to the U.S. and its resources and not reach a point where there's not enough to go around. I for one am not willing to accept population control by limiting and dictating births and that's what it'll come to if we continue to let everyone who wants to come over do so.

I think we should get our soldiers back from the ME and put them along the borders. We would save billions of dollars per year and our borders would be much more secure. \

We are so worried about terrorists flying into our country but nobody has done much in the way of making sure our borders are more secure. If terrorists wanted to get into the country all they would have to do is pay a coyote to bring them accross the border from Mexico.

Our tax dollars are paying for too many illegals schooling and healthcare. I've worked with many legal and illegal immigrants and they are some of the hardest working people I've ever met, but I still feel you should follow all laws when it comes to getting into this country.

One of the biggest problems is that most Americans think that it is "below" them to work a menial job. This is why too many Americans sit at home and collect welfare and just keep popping out kids. If all Americans had the same work ethic that most illegal immigrants do our economy wouldn't be in the crapper like it is now.

wow
he wrote that in 1974.
Seems like he is giving reasons why
the NWO should be perpetuated.
A very interesting read.

Originally posted by boondock-saint
wow
he wrote that in 1974.
Seems like he is giving reasons why
the NWO should be perpetuated.
A very interesting read.

I thought at first from reading this that he was a proponent of a world government as well but it turns out that is not the case. If you read some of his other work he says that the world should have independent, sovereign nations with the right of the people to emigrate out but the right of the nation to not allow immigrants in.

Hello,

Lots of good reading. Here to keep thread alive while I head back to complete the article. It's kinda long.

Eh. This has no bearing in a world consistent with having a sense of providence.

This fellows mentality is not consistent with a G_d fearing man. That doesn't jibe with me. As the Lord giveth, so too does he taketh away.

This guy is just trying to sale a one world government/the NWO.

I don't want any part in it what-so-ever.

[edit on (6/6/1010 by loveguy]

Personally I hate the lifeboat analogy because it assumes that only a small number of people are able to fit in it.

What if the boat is a cruise liner but a couple of families use the major portion of the boat for the finer things in life. The common folk are crammed into a smaller portion of the boat.

When you come upon a hundred people wading in the water who want to come aboard the common folk protest because they don't want to be crammed any tighter. Who can blame them?

This doesn't mean that there isn't room (Money) just that "You Know Who" are hoarding it. They just need to make you think there isn't any more room because then they would have to share.

[edit on 6-6-2010 by daskakik]

reply to post by daskakik


I get what you are saying but when do we say enough is enough? When is there no more room? How do we know that we aren't being told the truth that we can't handle anymore illegal immigrants anymore? Right now every state and the U.S. is in debt, thats a pretty good sign that we need to stop focusing our efforts outward for now and focus all our energy inward until we are back to being self sufficient again.

I particularly like this piece of hypocrisy:

We Americans of non-Indian ancestry can look upon ourselves as the descendants of thieves who are guilty morally, if not legally, of stealing this land from its Indian owners. Should we then give back the land to the now living American descendants of those Indians? However morally or logically sound this proposal may be, I, for one, am unwilling to live by it and I know no one else who is.

In other words, 'Do as we say and not as we do.' The 'Elites' jet and dine all over the world, live in big mansions and drive lots of cars, but tell the poor they're killing the world?

The article fails to mention the complete lack of birth control tools or education in these third world countries and the influence of religion in the population explosion.

I mean, try to tell a devout religious that non-abortion birth control makes sense, does not violate God's teachings, but if it doesn't show up in their religious tome or their man of god doesn't say it... forget it. The sensible becomes crazy then.

I agree it is dangerous to have 9 children, but in areas of high violence or starvation having more children paradoxically ensures the family bloodline continues because there will be at least 1 or 2 survivors in the end.

Instead of letting people die why not improve their lives and sexual\reproductive intelligences so they make better decisions.

I believe these who are in power prefer to simply kill people because it's the easiest route to take and they have no moral compass.

Originally posted by Mikey Sly
reply to post by daskakik

 

I get what you are saying but when do we say enough is enough? When is there no more room? How do we know that we aren't being told the truth that we can't handle anymore illegal immigrants anymore? Right now every state and the U.S. is in debt, thats a pretty good sign that we need to stop focusing our efforts outward for now and focus all our energy inward until we are back to being self sufficient again.

I would just like to point out that this isn't about legal or illegal immigrants. It's about money. Most if not every country in the world is in debt. That was the plan all along keep them in debt and you can control them.

The question is who says that there isn't enough? How is the capacity measured?

reply to post by daskakik


Just a couple of points on this... first, your initial argument against the lifeboat analogy is somewhat flawed. It was a metaphorical pretext - dismissing it out of hand because the author didn't discuss the physical parameters of the metaphorical lifeboat in question with you personally before publishing is a strawman argument to pick apart a cogent, apt analogy that points to something you don't like.

Second (and this is more in the abstract), let's say you are correct in assuming this lifeboat is the size of a Carnival Cruise Liner and being occupied by a couple of wealthy families... they maintain it, they operate it, for all we know they own it. Are you suggesting that they should be made to reduce their personal quality of life and live in a tiny corner of their own boat because no one else in the water could build a better one? Or at least a better shipyard? That my friend smacks of pure socialism. Which btw, was an underlying theme of the entire article which I think you might've missed...

I would just like to point out that this isn't about legal or illegal immigrants. It's about money. Most if not every country in the world is in debt. That was the plan all along keep them in debt and you can control them.

The question is who says that there isn't enough? How is the capacity measured?

That is a good question. I for one am weary of having a population limit in the U.S. and having the government dictate resource distribution. I am much comfortable with the free market and natural scarcity, supply and demand principles indirectly guiding our population. If a responsible family has children but does not make enough to have another child or they do not want their standard of living to go down they are much more likely to not have more.

You're right in a sense, it is not about legal or illegal immigrants altogether. But, it is about them partially. Legal immigrants are brought in to the country to ensure diversity, competition and new ideas flowing into the country. Illegal immigration not only circumvents that but it also does so without regard to the inhabitants already here.

Easy example, you live at home with your parents. You have friends come over and stay. They come to stay permanently. They eat the food in the house, they take up the bathroom, use the electricity, take over the spare bedroom and put a huge drain on your parents checking account. Now perhaps you say well we have a spare bedroom and if my parents didn't spend so much money on things they didn't need they could afford my friends living there. Well for one, the spare room is taken now, so what happens if they want to have guests? And it is their money, they work for it so should they not have the right to spend it how they want? And that money went to providing the family with a higher standard of living. You had a big screen tv, they bought you a car when you turned 16, you get to enjoy steak 2-3 times a week. Now with the drain thats all in jeopardy. Now how many more friends of yours can your parents take in until they lose everything.

reply to post by Mikey Sly


This would have been a good thread if you had posted it in 1975, but today it is almost pointless.

In a stable population with a birthrate of 2.1 for every person
born, one person dies. There is no increase in population.

Immigrants represent a non stable population.
Thus if 2 young people enter that population with a birthrate
of 4 they will have 100+ descendants in 80 years. Even with a
birthrate of 2 they would increase to 8 before they started to
die of old age in80 years.


Hardin says:
"Now suppose the U.S. agreed to pool its resources with those seven countries, with everyone receiving an equal share. Initially the ratio of Americans to non-Americans in this model would be one-to-one. But consider what the ratio would be after 87 years, by which time the Americans would have doubled to a population of 420 million. By then, doubling every 21 years, the other group would have swollen to 3.54 billion. Each American would have to share the available resources with more than eight people.

But, one could argue, this discussion assumes that current population trends will continue, and they may not. Quite so. Most likely the rate of population increase will decline much faster in the U.S. than it will in the other countries, and there does not seem to be much we can do about it..
....Anyone who publicly questions the wisdom of current U.S. immigration policy is promptly charged with bigotry, prejudice, ethnocentrism, chauvinism, isolationism or selfishness."

Immigration is not a complex problem of rocket science.
It is a complex conspiracy, used by
the NWO to destroy the middle class
and create a feudal like state.

In fact similar issues were explained in 1848 by the ex vice president Calhoun:

teachingamericanhistory.org...
Conquest of Mexico

John C. Calhoun
1848


"RESOLVED, That to conquer Mexico and to hold it, either as a province or to incorporate it into the Union, would be inconsistent with the avowed object for which the war has been prosecuted; a departure from the settled policy of the Government; in conflict with its character and genius; and in the end subversive of our free and popular institutions."










[edit on 6-6-2010 by RRokkyy]

reply to post by SUICIDEHK45


Finally, some people able to see the bigger picture! To add to the thread,
and in response to this quote, I have added another thread to link too.

We are so worried about terrorists flying into our country but nobody has done much in the way of making sure our borders are more secure. If terrorists wanted to get into the country all they would have to do is pay a coyote to bring them across the border from Mexico.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

You will see how bad this problem really is! and I hope others will too.

Thanks,

Pax

Originally posted by paxnatus
reply to post by SUICIDEHK45

 

Finally, some people able to see the bigger picture! To add to the thread,
and in response to this quote, I have added another thread to link too.

We are so worried about terrorists flying into our country but nobody has done much in the way of making sure our borders are more secure. If terrorists wanted to get into the country all they would have to do is pay a coyote to bring them across the border from Mexico.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

You will see how bad this problem really is! and I hope others will too.

Thanks,

Pax

Yes, the terrorism threat is also a huge concern. I've seen many news clips and articles about what is going on. Never did hear anything further on wether they caught Muhammed Ali yet either.

I was more curious on what peoples responses were to this article however and what their criticism was of it if they disagreed.

reply to post by Legion2112


I just don't like the lifeboat analogy and I also don't like the guy moving into your house analogy because I don't think they represent the situation as it really is. It's just over simplified in my opinion.

If your going to argue about limited resources but you never quantify then who's to say when enough is enough.

The point you missed about the cruise liner analogy is that there is a lot of space but the lower classes are made to believe that there is no more space because the elite don't want to share the space with you. They want you confined to a little corner of the ship.

Edit to add- Living in the third world I also don't like the way the article uses the image of people wading in water wating to be saved. We do a lot to move our countries forward. We have a half way decent boat. Not a Cruise ship but there is space for all of us. Yeah the elites also have us confined to a small area while they enjoy the rest of the boat.

The ones in the water are the ones who jumped from our boat hoping they get get on your ship.

[edit on 6-6-2010 by daskakik]

Originally posted by daskakik
reply to post by Legion2112

 

I just don't like the lifeboat analogy and I also don't like the guy moving into your house analogy because I don't think they represent the situation as it really is. It's just over simplified in my opinion.

If your going to argue about limited resources but you never quantify then who's to say when enough is enough.

The point you missed about the cruise liner analogy is that there is a lot of space but the lower classes are made to believe that there is no more space because the elite don't want to share the space with you. They want you confined to a little corner of the ship.

Edit to add- Living in the third world I also don't like the way the article uses the image of people wading in water wating to be saved. We do a lot to move our countries forward. We have a half way decent boat. Not a Cruise ship but there is space for all of us. Yeah the elites also have us confined to a small area while they enjoy the rest of the boat.

The ones in the water are the ones who jumped from our boat hoping they get get on your ship.

[edit on 6-6-2010 by daskakik]

But the point of an analogy is to simplify something into an easy to work with concept. I agree that a lifeboat may not be the best analogy but I think a home is a pretty accurate one. The home being the United States and the family in it being the citizens. An immigrant would be a new addition into the family. And as with an actual family, each new member must contribute something towards the household in order for that family to maintain or improve their standard of living. But with any household it gets to the point where the home can sustain all of its occupants. And especially if more and more of the family members stop contributing towards the household that household will become unsustainable even quicker.

We can easily say that it's all the elite's fault but who are the elite? And how does not solving any of the other issues benefit us? The elite are merely the other families that have been able to be self sufficient and then came and helped out the other families. They helped to the point where we are now in perpetual debt to them because we haven't managed to find a solution to our own problems. Until we find solutions to our problems and fix them we will not be able to go after the elites and thus they will forever have power over us.

Right about the reason for analogies. I just feel that they sound good but often leave important things out. Especially when they are just a few sentences long.

Anyway, the elites are the rich. you said

Originally posted by Mikey Sly
The elite are merely the other families that have been able to be self sufficient and then came and helped out the other families. They helped to the point where we are now in perpetual debt to them because we haven't managed to find a solution to our own problems. Until we find solutions to our problems and fix them we will not be able to go after the elites and thus they will forever have power over us.

You haven't found a solution to your problems because you are in perpetual debt to them and my point is that they intend to keep things that way.

LET ME SEE IF I GOT THIS RIGHT!!!


IF YOU CROSS THE NORTH KOREAN BORDER ILLEGALLY YOU GET 12 YEARS HARD LABOR.

IF YOU CROSS THE IRANIAN BORDER ILLEGALLY YOU ARE DETAINED INDEFINITELY.

IF YOU CROSS THE AFGHAN BORDER ILLEGALLY, YOU GET SHOT.

IF YOU CROSS THE SAUDI ARABIAN BORDER ILLEGALLY YOU WILL BE JAILED.

IF YOU CROSS THE CHINESE BORDER ILLEGALLY YOU MAY NEVER BE HEARD FROM AGAIN.

IF YOU CROSS THE VENEZUELAN BORDER ILLEGALLY YOU WILL BE BRANDED A SPY AND YOUR FATE WILL BE SEALED.

IF YOU CROSS THE CUBAN BORDER ILLEGALLY YOU WILL BE THROWN INTO POLITICAL PRISON TO ROT.

IF YOU CROSS THE U.S. BORDER ILLEGALLY YOU GET

1 - A JOB,
2 - A DRIVERS LICENSE,
3 - SOCIAL SECURITY CARD,
4 - WELFARE,
5 - FOOD STAMPS,
6 - CREDIT CARDS,
7 - SUBSIDIZED RENT OR A LOAN TO BUY A HOUSE,
8 - FREE EDUCATION,
9 - FREE HEALTH CARE,
10 - A LOBBYIST IN WASHINGTON
11 - BILLIONS OF DOLLARS WORTH OF PUBLIC DOCUMENTS PRINTED IN YOUR LANGUAGE
12 - AND THE RIGHT TO CARRY YOUR COUNTRY'S FLAG WHILE YOU PROTEST THAT YOU DON'T GET ENOUGH RESPECT


I JUST WANTED TO MAKE SURE I HAD A FIRM GRASP ON THE SITUATION...

Originally posted by in2delite
LET ME SEE IF I GOT THIS RIGHT!!!


IF YOU CROSS THE NORTH KOREAN BORDER ILLEGALLY YOU GET 12 YEARS HARD LABOR.

IF YOU CROSS THE IRANIAN BORDER ILLEGALLY YOU ARE DETAINED INDEFINITELY.

IF YOU CROSS THE AFGHAN BORDER ILLEGALLY, YOU GET SHOT.

IF YOU CROSS THE SAUDI ARABIAN BORDER ILLEGALLY YOU WILL BE JAILED.

IF YOU CROSS THE CHINESE BORDER ILLEGALLY YOU MAY NEVER BE HEARD FROM AGAIN.

IF YOU CROSS THE VENEZUELAN BORDER ILLEGALLY YOU WILL BE BRANDED A SPY AND YOUR FATE WILL BE SEALED.

IF YOU CROSS THE CUBAN BORDER ILLEGALLY YOU WILL BE THROWN INTO POLITICAL PRISON TO ROT.

You forgot to mention Mexico the land of that self-righteous pompous ass Calderon. I have attached a reminder of his response to Wolf Blitzer.

tammybruce.com...

Originally posted by in2delite
LET ME SEE IF I GOT THIS RIGHT!!!


IF YOU CROSS THE NORTH KOREAN BORDER ILLEGALLY YOU GET 12 YEARS HARD LABOR.

IF YOU CROSS THE IRANIAN BORDER ILLEGALLY YOU ARE DETAINED INDEFINITELY.

IF YOU CROSS THE AFGHAN BORDER ILLEGALLY, YOU GET SHOT.

IF YOU CROSS THE SAUDI ARABIAN BORDER ILLEGALLY YOU WILL BE JAILED.

IF YOU CROSS THE CHINESE BORDER ILLEGALLY YOU MAY NEVER BE HEARD FROM AGAIN.

IF YOU CROSS THE VENEZUELAN BORDER ILLEGALLY YOU WILL BE BRANDED A SPY AND YOUR FATE WILL BE SEALED.

IF YOU CROSS THE CUBAN BORDER ILLEGALLY YOU WILL BE THROWN INTO POLITICAL PRISON TO ROT.

IF YOU CROSS THE U.S. BORDER ILLEGALLY YOU GET

1 - A JOB,
2 - A DRIVERS LICENSE,
3 - SOCIAL SECURITY CARD,
4 - WELFARE,
5 - FOOD STAMPS,
6 - CREDIT CARDS,
7 - SUBSIDIZED RENT OR A LOAN TO BUY A HOUSE,
8 - FREE EDUCATION,
9 - FREE HEALTH CARE,
10 - A LOBBYIST IN WASHINGTON
11 - BILLIONS OF DOLLARS WORTH OF PUBLIC DOCUMENTS PRINTED IN YOUR LANGUAGE
12 - AND THE RIGHT TO CARRY YOUR COUNTRY'S FLAG WHILE YOU PROTEST THAT YOU DON'T GET ENOUGH RESPECT


I JUST WANTED TO MAKE SURE I HAD A FIRM GRASP ON THE SITUATION...

Well if you go undetected nothing happens to you and in the states all that other stuff on the list isn't really a given.

Check out the wikipedia entry for illegal immigration and you will see that even china has illegals.