You think Perpetual Motion Machine is Impossible, Think Again!

If you think that Perpetual Motion Machine is impossible think again! because the Continuously Expanding Universe where the expansion of the universe consumes lot-lot of Hydrogen and Energy yet both of the Hydrogen and Energy that spent on the Universe Expansion process are simply never runs out and this really Debunks Laws of Thermodynamics for good(Laws of Thermodynamics are created mostly for keeps us in the dark from near-limitless energy sources and allows Capitalism enslaves mankind)

reply to post by masonicon


Masonicon,
Could you be a little clearer in your example, I'm not fully understanding.
Thanks

Originally posted by masonicon
If you think that Perpetual Motion Machine is impossible think again! because the Continuously Expanding Universe where the expansion of the universe consumes lot-lot of Hydrogen and Energy yet both of the Hydrogen and Energy that spent on the Universe Expansion process are simply never runs out and this really Debunks Laws of Thermodynamics for good(Laws of Thermodynamics are created mostly for keeps us in the dark from near-limitless energy sources and allows Capitalism enslaves mankind)

Perpetual Motion Machine, by your own definition of it, cannot exist and you proved it.

The universe is finite, as you claim by assuming that it expands. But because the universe is finite, that means that everything related to the universe is also finite.

If you believe that our universe is made up of space-time, as some people do, then it is also impossible because if there is limited space, there is also limited time - and vice versa.

If you believe our universe is infinite, then you might have a point in saying that perpetual motion machines are possible - but not really. The perpetual motion machine is something that must be self-sustaining after the catalyst grants the machine its energy.

For example, If I hit a ball and it rolls forward and it keeps rolling, then that is perpetual motion. Now attach the ball to a string around a rod. Unless this machine is in space, the ball will not keep going. There is air friction and there is either gravity and/or electromagnetic forces which correct the motion of the ball to realign itself with the planet's own motion.

The solar system would seem to be a perpetual motion machine except that it seems that things even change on the grander scales.

Perpetual motion, especially in pressurized atmosphere, is highly unlikely. As well, just because a perpetual motion machine might exist, it does not follow that a perpetual energy-resupplying machine does - in a pressurized atmosphere.

If you want to find a completely free energy source, step outside and look up at that big ball of electric flame.

reply to post by masonicon


great, now all you have to do is find a way to harvest the H and build a motor that uses your harvested H. Oh, and make sure it's real cheap, or it will defeat the purpose of building it.

I am not against this line of thought, just being a realist. Space travel seems the most beneficial aspect of this since H is the most abundant element in space.

I cant say what I have to offer is 'truth'....

but my mother, during a NDE in 2008, had a experience of going beneath the Sphonx and witnessed what seemed to be 'inventions' that seemed to run on a perpetual motion...seeming that they still were working.

Its hard for me to explain, and it may not be they worked on perpetual motion...but were working after all this time with ease.

Well I've only been on ATS a few weeks but I've already had a bellyful of the bogus pseudo-science being bandied about by those who only half understand the ideas they feel compelled to make emphatic wild claims about. A little knowledge is a dangerous thing and all that. Since your'e positing the universe itself as a PMM / Over Unity system, at least you're not claiming to have knocked one up in your garden shed like so many other posters I've seen in the short time I've been here.

Even 'Top Scientists' don't claim they have all the answers and no-one knows catagorically if the universe will continue to expand for ever, eventually stop or even begin to collapse back in on itself at some point in the far off future. We won't know for a very, very long time.

The Laws of Thermodynamics which you claim to have 'debunked' were not imposed by some autocratic Council of Capitalists in order to enslave mankind but were derived by scientists after years of experimentation, observation, measurement, calculation and, well Hard Thinking. They stand up to scientific scrutiny, but like all 'Laws' of science are subject to being challenged and even refuted when that is based upon credible, demonstrable and repeatable experiment.

I accept that the laws of physics are incomplete and that it is very unscientific to state that something is impossible as an absolute fact.

But I'll continue to believe in them for the time being. I think that the sun and other stars will eventually go cold. That matter will continue to decay into its constituent parts. That I cannot simply reverse entropy and make diamond crystals out of coal dust in my shed. Damn those Capitalist Scientist Overlords!

Apologies if I seem a little abrupt, but after reading 33 pages in this thread I'm a little weary of bad science masquerading as The Truth.

reply to post by Crazy Man Michael


Welcome, CMM!! Good points! Nice to see a thoughtful, cogent response.

Could the OP be trying to explain the concept (still a bit "out there", I admit) of 'ZPE'??

I'm only dabbling in this stuff, and put bits and pieces together from various science programmes, and science articles --- but a lot seems to hinge on more of 'string theory', ZPE, and the ultimate TOE (if ever attainable).

Ideas?

Continuously Expanding Universe? Unprovable.
What goes up, must come down.
What Expands will eventually contract.

reply to post by weedwhacker

Welcome, CMM!! Good points! Nice to see a thoughtful, cogent response.

Thanks for the welcome and comments! I came to ATS hoping to find well-reasoned discussions on interesting topics outside the mainstream. Already noting a few FM's who's posts stand out against the usual forum 'background noise'. Your signature made me smile as it mirrors my own thoughts on society today (especially as I worked 25 years in science education) Also Sagan has been a 'hero' of mine since I first saw his RI Christmas Lectures on the BBC back in '77 (I still watch them every year)

... meanwhile, back OT ...

Could the OP be trying to explain the concept (still a bit "out there", I admit) of 'ZPE'??

I think yes, he's stating that "Perpetual Motion / Over Unity / Zero Point Energy" is possible because we are in a "Continuously Expanding Universe" which is driven by "Hydrogen and Energy" which never runs out.

The problem though is the 2nd (entropy/disorder) Law -

" which states that entropy tends to increase in an isolated system."

or

"In a system, a process that occurs will tend to increase the total entropy of the universe."

or

"In all energy exchanges, if no energy enters or leaves the system, the potential energy of the state will always be less than that of the initial state."

Which is why we need to keep adding energy by winding our clockwork watches, putting gasolene in our cars and food into our stomachs.

And why all matter will ultimately degenerate from an ordered, structured state (like a diamond crystal) to a dispersed, disorganised chaos of subatomic particles. Why the universe itself will eventually die a "Heat Death" as it continues on its journey towards Thermodynamic Equilibrium (all matter/enery dispersed evenly throughout - a state of maximum entropy).

This holds true whether one believes in a "Closed" (recollapsing) or "Open" (infinitely expanding) model. Ironically the universal temperature approaches Absolte Zero during this heat death.

Heat Death of the Universe

Sadly, no-one will be around by then to settle the argument once and for all. Though I'd still like a table at the The Restaurant at the End of the Universe, one with a nice view.

It makes my brain hurt to Think Hard about these concepts, so I like this simple description of the laws I found here - here

The British scientist and author C.P. Snow had an excellent way of remembering the three laws:

1. You cannot win (that is, you cannot get something for nothing, because matter and energy are conserved).

2. You cannot break even (you cannot return to the same energy state, because there is always an increase in disorder; entropy always increases).

3. You cannot get out of the game (because absolute zero is unattainable).

I'll have to leave String Theory and the TEO (do you mean the Grand Unification Theory?) to Steven Hawking et al. I was only a lab technician not a theorist

Im not sure if I would call it a continuous expansion...but it does seem to have a cycle of perpetual motion...an eternal system of cycling itself.

Mabey there is already a theory that describes such an idea. I know there is one that talks about expansion, then collapsing....but does it suggest this is a eternal system, something without true beginning or end?

Forgive me for the lack of studying up on this myself. Feel free to suggest or correct me anywhere.

Originally posted by RedmoonMWC
Continuously Expanding Universe? Unprovable.
What goes up, must come down.
What Expands will eventually contract.

The Universe will eventually contract, but luckily this will only happen in the Billions of years in the future

[edit on 2/6/2010 by masonicon]

The problems is: how did ancient people that somewhat technologically superior to modern people can know Perpetual motion machine is possible?

[edit on 1/6/2010 by masonicon]

Originally posted by Crazy Man Michael
Which is why we need to keep adding energy by winding our clockwork watches

True but some clever people have figured out how to add this energy to make it look like a perpetual motion machine:

Atmos Clock

Isn't something that runs by itself forever like that kind of a perpetual motion machine? And I know they are real, my father has one and it needs no winding, no batteries. It just keeps running forever (or until something breaks I guess).

[edit on 1-6-2010 by Arbitrageur]

Originally posted by Arbitrageur

Originally posted by Crazy Man Michael
Which is why we need to keep adding energy by winding our clockwork watches

True but some clever people have figured out how to add this energy to make it look like a perpetual motion machine:

Atmos Clock

Isn't something that runs by itself forever like that kind of a perpetual motion machine? And I know they are real, my father has one and it needs no winding, no batteries. It just keeps running forever (or until something breaks I guess).

[edit on 1-6-2010 by Arbitrageur]

Nope, not a perpetual motion machine. It may look like one, but it is not. In order for it to be a perpetual motion machine, it must create energy or run by itself forever without any new energy being input. This clock derives energy from temperature and atmospheric pressure changes.

It's pretty impressive though.

This would be a good point, but then you decided to add your paranoid, "everyone's out to get us" opinion at the end. Which takes away any credibility really. Take the tin hat off and back up your theory with facts and not what you read on itsaconspiracy.com

Originally posted by Tzale
Nope, not a perpetual motion machine. It may look like one, but it is not. In order for it to be a perpetual motion machine, it must create energy or run by itself forever without any new energy being input. This clock derives energy from temperature and atmospheric pressure changes.

It's pretty impressive though.

Right but it LOOKS like a perpetual motion machine, according to this definition:
www.answers.com...

A mechanism which, once set in motion, continues to do useful work without an input of energy,

There's no VISIBLE input of energy, it literally draws its energy out of thin air. I think that's pretty close to the holy grail some people in the free energy world seek.

So I say why try to build a free energy machine that violates the laws of physics when we can build one that doesn't? It's got to be easier to build one that doesn't, like the Atmos clock.

Perpetual motion with two physics laws is possible : so yes this is not the perpetual motion or "engine" you imagine : if you know a little physics ( but not too much ).

Take a quantum OR circle, place an electron : and yeepee.

Take water gravity and pressure (with a device that have been created thousand years ago ) and ... yeepee ( the problem would be to create a very hight device and its not affordable )

So my work if I had time : which i have not would be to search other electronic/mecanique/(and or quantum) alternative to what i just described here.

[edit on 2-6-2010 by psychederic]

Originally posted by Arbitrageur

Originally posted by Tzale
Nope, not a perpetual motion machine. It may look like one, but it is not. In order for it to be a perpetual motion machine, it must create energy or run by itself forever without any new energy being input. This clock derives energy from temperature and atmospheric pressure changes.

It's pretty impressive though.

Right but it LOOKS like a perpetual motion machine, according to this definition:
www.answers.com...

A mechanism which, once set in motion, continues to do useful work without an input of energy,

There's no VISIBLE input of energy, it literally draws its energy out of thin air. I think that's pretty close to the holy grail some people in the free energy world seek.

So I say why try to build a free energy machine that violates the laws of physics when we can build one that doesn't? It's got to be easier to build one that doesn't, like the Atmos clock.

Yes, good point.

I think the entire thrill surrounding experimenting with perpetual motion designs is that many want to prove the current scientific thinking wrong. It would be much more practical (and probably easier) to do what you are saying. Actually, I wouldn't be against experimenting with a 'near perpetual' design such as the ATMOS Clock myself.

I see we have a lot of deacons, bishops and popes from the Church of The Scientific Cult here tonight.

I don't give a whit about your 2nd so called law of thermodynamics. These so called laws are broken all the time you know.. just because you haven't seen it happen yet, for this law, does not mean this law is carved in stone. Get off your high horses already.

You guys sound like a broken record and it's really sad that you so believe your own propaganda that it stops you from ever going beyond the bounds that tie you down and keep you from growing.

Besides, I don't need my Perpetual Motion Machine to be so good it runs forever. I just need it to run for a thousand years. After that, we'll build another one. This time one that runs for 10 thousand years.

The whole point is to get free or as near to free energy as you can get that lasts long enough to do the work needed of ridding this planet of the evil oil companies, electric companies and other things that's going to destroy humanity.

Overunity is right under our noses.

chukanovenergy.com...
www.google.com...
stopdestruction.blogspot.com...
www.hiddenmysteries.org...
www.youtube.com...

Free energy for all and perfect health. Suppressed for hundreds of years, probably.