The Taino - are they alive or extinct?

reply to post by Dembow

If that's the case then why do 23% of Puerto Ricans claim "American Indian" ancestry on US Census forms?

reply to post by ChrisF231


Same reason most of us pick "white" on those forms. We as a people don't consider ourselves "white" "black"
or "american indian". Me for example, I look white, but my dad and grandfathers were "black", my mom and grandmothers were "white". What am I? Neither. Just puertorican. What is puertorican?----the mix between Spanish, African and Taino races and culture.

The census forms don't have a proper classification for us. Everybody just goes: "well, im lightskinned, so I'll pick white." Or "I'm darkskinned, so I'll put black". A prope classification would be "Mestizo" or mixed. We are joined by tradition, customs, history and culture, not race. That's why racism is almost non-existant here. Same goes for Cuba and Dominican Republic but not Haiti or Jamaica.

An interesting National Geographic documentary on Columbus' Cursed Colony (2011).

Rather cheaply made, but not without merits, the documentary follows archeological clues on the first colony in the New World at La Isabella in what is today the Dominican Republic on historical Hispaniola.
Administered mainly by Columbus himself, the colony was founded in 1494, but didn't last very long.
It's demise remains speculative and unsolved.

The local Taino recorded their history in a cave, and sadly it ends with what clearly appears to be a drawing of a Spanish ship from the front.

For the Spanish it was a lost colony, but for the Taino it was the end of the world.

Here the explorers film the cave, from 8:00 into the clip.



On the specific cave and image see: www.archaeology.org...

Taino Prophesy.

A collection of books and quotes on the Taino, and the Borike Taino prophesy on the coming conquest:

The Taino in Cuba:

Contemporary dance for tourists:



A short film produced by Danny Mott, depicting pre-conquest Taino life through art, and some scenes from the conquest.

The Taino of Cuba: The Untold Story:

Taino Dance from Puerto Rico, at the 13th Annual Muevete Youth Festival:



So the question remains why some scholars would often call such a vibrant culture "extinct"?

Jamaica - American Indian history of the Taino.

Very good information on their food and housing.

The latest (2011) on Genetic Studies on Taino ancestry in Puerto Rico.

I didn't understand all the scientific jargon, and need some closer examination of the clip, but I gather a few interesting points.
These include:

- The American Indian genes are spread throughout the island fairly equally, both between white and African ancestral groups. The African and European groups however show less regionally consistent admixture between each other.
- The group with the least admixture of either Europeans and Africans (and the highest Taino ancestry) is not found in the interior, but rather along coastal regions, which conform to a landscape rich in fertile land, limestone and caves (and as has been suggested since the previous thread page, the Taino probably saw caves as very significant).
- A question for further research concerns variants amongst Native American results, since the Dominican Republic variants seem different to those of Puerto Rico, and despite cultural similarities, the Taino might regionally have come from different migrations.
It seems likely that the American Indian ancestry from this study may be largely specific to Puerto Rico, rather than a pan-Taino singular population across the islands, although this will take further research to clarify.
I suppose added to this is a history of enslaving North American Indian peoples, and displacing them to the Caribbean, although I'm not sure how significant this was in broad population figures.

Here is the clip description from YouTube, followed by the research presentation:

Dr. Juan Martinez-Cruzado, of the University of Puerto Rico @ Mayaguez, presents the latest news on his ongoing research regarding Taino DNA.

Presented at the Smithsonian Latino Center's "Beyond Extinction: Consciousness of Taíno & Caribbean Indigeneity" symposium on August 26, 2011.

Text from the invitation: This symposium features scholars on Taíno and Caribbean
indigenous themes who will discuss the survival of Taíno language,
identity, and material culture in contemporary Caribbean consciousness.
Participants include archaeologist Osvaldo García Goyco, historian
Alejandro Hartmann Matos, and biologist Juan Carlos Martínez Cruzado. Roberto Borrero, president, United Confederation of Taíno People, will serve as respondent. Moderated by José Barreiro, director of the Office of Latin America at the National Museum of the American Indian.

This program is organized by the National Museum of the American Indian and the Smithsonian Latino Center and is supported by the Consortium for World Cultures, Smithsonian Institution.

Interesting article from National Geographic magazine (2010).

Although it was thought that gold and silver were the obsession of the Conquistadors, recent finds in the Dominican Republic suggest that other minerals were initially traded.

The Taino people offered Columbus shoes decorated in Dominican amber in exchange for a necklace made of Baltic amber. Dominican amber is generally more transparent than that found in other parts of the world, it's also more likely to contain insects (the trade of which is regulated now by Dominican law), and it comes in rare colors, such as red, smoky green, and blue.

blogs.nationalgeographic.com...

In 2007 archeologists found substantial evidence of pre-Columbian civilization in Puerto Rico, although it seemed somewhat unclear whether to judge this as "Taino" or "pre-Taino".

news.nationalgeographic.com...

The recognition of the Taino is still hesitant from power.

How the Taino were simply counted out of existence.

Actually this kind of genocide by ignoring people is not unusual, and I could think of some future scenarios in South Africa with very similar arguments (especially regarding the Khoisan people).



A march in Cape Town (South Africa) by the Khoisan people.
A growing awareness of history and identity.

A fascinating article on the Taino from the Smithsonian Magazine (2011).

A text that begins with an assumption of "extinction" increasingly interrogates itself, and instead we find a narrative of American Indian survival in the Caribbean.

www.smithsonianmag.com...

A friend of mine's grandmother is full Taino Indian. He was born and raised in Puerto Rico.

second line

None of the Indian tribes are extinct. All one has to do is take an autosomal or Y/MT DNA test.
Many cultures were just absorbed into the invading culture. When the conquistadors arrived from Spain they were not allowed to bring a woman unless they were already married to that woman. Their only choice was to take a Native woman as a wife.

My father carries 35% Mayan and Columbian/Caribbean mixture and I carry 17.5% DNA tests confirmed and my father carries a MT dna haplogroup of A2k from his mother indicating their entire direct female line was of Native origin. A2k is prominent in the Caribbean natives, Taino, Arawak, Carrib. My father is from Costa Rica and when working on his mother side of the tree I found Spanish explorers coming from the Caribbean with Native wives into Central America.

I've just read that the shipwreck of the Santa Maria has apparently been found.
The ship sank on Christmas Day after hitting a reef along the northern Haitian coast, just as Columbus was planning to return to Spain toward the the end of 1492.
Columbus left most of the crew at a quickly constructed fort at La Navidad.

www.bbc.com...

Clark Moore followed the trail of Columbus' "lost fort", and other clues from the time of conquest.
Significantly he pointed out that the fort was built in the middle of a large Indian village.
Upon Columbus' return the fort and the village were destroyed, indicating some kind of struggle (perhaps the first significant colonial violence in the Americas).

It would be fascinating to find out if any Taino artifacts will be found in the wreckage of the Santa Maria, particularly pottery, stone carvings or gold trinkets?

The article on Moore also includes some other fascinating finds, including the spacial patterns of Taino villages, signs of look-out huts in the Haitian mountains, and an interesting reference to neo-Taino revivals in the Caribbean, which are claimed to be somewhat secretive in Haiti (I'd wonder why?).

www.smithsonianmag.com...

I've heard that under Christopher Columbus alone over 500 Tainos were sent to Spain as slaves.



This site on Columbus also has some horrific details of the conquest in general, and it seems most Taino taken to Spain died during the voyage or within a year, although seemingly not all.
ahealedplanet.net...

I'm sure there were many more from various islands who were subsequently taken, perhaps because they couldn't pay their colonial gold and cotton tax, or perhaps because they were considered hostile, or simply because their new masters needed money.

I'm just quite curious as to what became of these people in southern Europe?
Were they seen as real slaves fit for hard labor, or somewhat exotic?
Did they survive for a while as families or individuals who married locals, or were the survivors traded on to other lands?
Were some of them given Christian burials, or were they buried in mass graves?

There's a generic answer to the question of what became of the Taino slaves in Europe, and that is that they were forced to become Christian, they endured cruel punishments and died of diseases.
wiki.answers.com...=1

However, I'm sure this cannot be the whole story.
They must have left some recorded trace or genetic heritage.

I'd love to know if anyone in Spain has done any research on this?

In Jamaica they died out or got bred out,they left some dna in the current population but not much,first the Caribs were pretty hard on them,their orders from the rivers of Venezuela was simple,go find new lands, they were in the process of conquering the "Caribbean" when the Spanish happened on them,the Spanish took Jamaica and enslave much of the population who were a coastal folk, most died from disease and over work ,the others ran away into the mountains where they tried to etch-out a living,the Spaniards imported African slaves to shore up labor force, due to women shortages,these then competed with the Arawak men for their women,often killing them in the process,some of these Africans escaped into the mountains fared better perhaps being mountaineers back in their lands of origin,it is believed they learnt certain survival techniques form the Arawaks such as making bread from Cassava which can be quite poisonous if not processed correctly and the now famous Jerk may have came from them although that is some what in dispute,but in any case they were absorbed by the ex-slaves who became known as the Maroons (part of my ancestors) who became a pain in the ass for both the Spanish and English for centuries,you will find much of the history of the Caribbean had a similar out come.

Our national motto ‘Out of Many One People’ is represented on it. It shows a male and female member of the Taino tribe standing on either side of a shield which bears a red cross with five golden pineapples.

The crest shows a Jamaican crocodile mounted on the Royal Helmet of the British Monarchy and mantling.

Considered as a legacy from the British with slight modifications, the Coat of Arms was granted to Jamaica 1661 under Royal Warrant.

The original was designed by William Sancroft, then Archbishop of Canterbury.

The Coat of Arms have undergone a number of changes since then, but it is perceived that the three main ones occurred in 1692, 1957 and 1962 respectively.

It may have been dispensed with, but the government and opposition then reached an agreement back decided that it constituted a "badge of great historical significance to the nation and should be retained".

All the figures on the coat of Arms represents Jamaica in different aspects:

The Pineapples - as the indigenous fruits.
The Tainos – as the first inhabitants of the country.
The Crocodile – as the indigenous reptile in the country and
The use of the Royal Helmet and Mantlings is a unique distinction accorded to Jamaica by the British.

www.my-island-jamaica.com...

a reply to: Spider879

I'm not sure about the rest of Caribbean Island people though.

The neighborhood with sooo many great restaurants in all Latin variations of food--we were sitting at a sidewalk table. Started talking to a Dominican, as time passed he mentioned the Tainos and said his grandmother claimed they were descendants.

And just from visiting Haiti, and much more the D.R. -- the mountains the fields the coasts, the jungle,( both on mountains and off) I truly believe there is a greater population than may be officially reported.

Hell, in one village on the side of a mountain, I helped (with only the knowledge I had from rewiring my old home) hook up a few structures with electricity. (Even then elec and water were only available a few hours a day) The food was NOT traditional Dominican. The way they showed me around the jungle and the mountain on the way up was sooo intimate with the land--they spoke of the large beast that jumps high in the trees.
I asked if any of them had seen it..no.

I don't know. I may be showing my ignorance even after spending about a total of 3 1/2 months over the years, and be coming off really offensive.

I don't mean to be.

I'm just trying to say that there are very old traditions in very rural areas that, to me, say it is not from a Spanish-Indian amalgam...geez even that sounds bad.
I hope you get what I mean.

ETA: If I get the chance and build up a little more to buy a place outright, I would move to the Dominican Republic in a heartbeat.

originally posted by: Chamberf=6
a reply to: Spider879

I'm not sure about the rest of Caribbean Island people though.

The neighborhood with sooo many great restaurants in all Latin variations of food--we were sitting at a sidewalk table. Started talking to a Dominican, as time passed he mentioned the Tainos and said his grandmother claimed they were descendants.

And just from visiting Haiti, and much more the D.R. -- the mountains the fields the coasts, the jungle,( both on mountains and off) I truly believe there is a greater population than may be officially reported.

Hell, in one village on the side of a mountain, I helped (with only the knowledge I had from rewiring my old home) hook up a few structures with electricity. (Even then elec and water were only available a few hours a day) The food was NOT traditional Dominican. The way they showed me around the jungle and the mountain on the way up was sooo intimate with the land--they spoke of the large beast that jumps high in the trees.
I asked if any of them had seen it..no.

I don't know. I may be showing my ignorance even after spending about a total of 3 1/2 months over the years, and be coming off really offensive.

I don't mean to be.

I'm just trying to say that there are very old traditions in very rural areas that, to me, say it is not from a Spanish-Indian amalgam...geez even that sounds bad.
I hope you get what I mean.

ETA: If I get the chance and build up a little more to buy a place outright, I would move to the Dominican Republic in a heartbeat.

Well in larger Islands and hard to get at places there would be survivors,although one cannot vouched that these do not carry non Taino genetic stuff,however culture and tradition may well have been maintained in some communities which is more important IMO,for if even some traditions survived along with genes then they are not an extinct people much like another group of people the native Hawaiians just a modified people.
Btw nothing you said is no where near offensive..

I'm gld it wass't seen as offensive. I kept thiknkig of the Seiefeld episode where they were saying, "Maybe we shouldn't be talking about this".
a reply to: Spider879
BTW I've switched devices and am really bad at the typing tthig on this...way too small.

a reply to: Spider879

Sorry for the near incomprehensible reply above, my fingers and the soo bad "correct" on the tablet make it very frustrating....think I'll try to avoid writing anything on ATS with that.

i'll just read in the future.