warning this can offend law abiding citizens - Which I'm not one of.

Originally posted by K J Gunderson
Actually, my whole point is that if you claim I said something I know I never said, YOU BETTER BE WILLING TO PROVE IT OR ADMIT YOU WERE WRONG.

Why is being honest such a complicated subject to the point you can even justify lying about what someone said in order to prove you are righteous? What a freakin' joke the "Christians" in this thread are.

The dude makes up something and claims I said it.

I call him out on it.

He weasels around it.

You tell him to keep up the good fight.

LMAO!!!!!!!

So much hate, so much vitriol. Can you not see that I want for you what I want for all. Freedom of choice. Freedom of religion. Freedom of speech. Freedom of assembly. The right to Life, Liberty and Property.

I never put words in your mouth, I called you a decryer of false victimhood.

Forced collectivism under the guise of public schools or any other public good forces people to not speak their minds. Forces them to follow the tenet that the government espouses.

Forcing people to pay into a government that does not follow their beliefs is tyranny and oppression. The same thing happened just a few short years ago. Because you believe in what the government espouses, at this time, you believe in it. What happens when this very same government does not espouse your rhetoric? OH, that is when you may say something, but as long as the government is on your belief system, it is alright.

Gotya. If you cannot admit this it is not my fault or anyone else's. It is yours and yours alone. Own it. Welcome it. Because you sir are the tyrant, not I or others like me. You can say and do as you wish in my world. In my world there is freedom, in yours there is freedom as long as people agree.

Calling others names is infantile to the extreme. Please grow up. Debate without denigration and circular logic and reasoning. You might actually be able to turn someone to the darkside instead of scaring the daylights out of them.

And why is it that you attack Christians? You keep going on and on and on and on about Christians. Has anyone on this thread actually said they were Christians?

If one was to actually look at your rhetoric, one may think you hate Christians. Why do you hate Christians? If I may be so bold to ask.

[edit on 5/27/2010 by endisnighe]

Originally posted by nunya13
If there was a Muslim teacher who wanted to say his/her own prayer, don't you think the Christians would be upset about being forced to listen to it?

when I was in Saudi Arabia (Daharan) I heard their prayers 4 times a day. I worked nights, so it was particularly annoying whilst I was trying to sleep, but I was in their country and that is normal over there. This country was founded on God as a cornerstone. Nobody is forced to pray or believe, but be respectful of those who wish to do it. Political correctness is going to ruin this country. Grow a pair and deal with it.

I find it strange that, after looking over this thread, there are two types of supporters that have popped up, for the most part:

1. Christians, or apparent Christians, who come in and give a praise Jesus, then don't return. 1 post bandits, swinging by to make their comment in support and then move on

2. stated non-Christians fighting tooth and nail for this mans freedom (i am in the last group, but nowhere near as artful as JPZ)

I find it strange that non-Christians are the most willing to go to the mat over this.

I find it even stranger that Gunderson keeps saying "you Christians", when it isn't Christians defending the principle.

And i find it disturbing that we have several pages of Gunderson demanding to be quoted. Move on. I missed that part, and have had to pretty much ignore everything you have said so that a decent thread isn't ruined. You made your demand. Now be quiet, please. You are filling up space with nonsense that detracts from the flow of the discussion. You know, the topic? I.E., not you.

What bothers me isn’t that this guy wants to pray it is that he just HAS to push this prayer on everyone. What always bothered me is that Christians seem to have to push it all out in public and when we get tired of it the oppression flag raises high and fast.

What if I wanted to do a Wiccan spell on the PA or recite the Rede? Think this principal would abide by that? but I digress….

Here is my point. What upsets me about religious groups is their absolute need to be viewed doing what they do. I remember (very little admittedly) Catholic school. Does it make a personal difference to me if I say an Our Father to myself or to a million people? If it does then I submit to you that these people are more interested in spreading their message so they can be seen as holy then the message themselves. Everyone HAS to make their little speeches and has to be seen in public. Instead, why not stay humble?

I have been in the Air Force 8 years now. I am very very used to prayer before Dining Ins, Dining Outs, graduations and large award ceremonies. My old commander, very caring individual, knew I was a Wiccan and asked me if I wanted to excuse myself before the prayer session. I always opted to stay because unlike some I prefer to keep spirituality to myself and I don’t need to make a scene. If the announcer mentioned prayer time and I got up and excused myself I imagine there would be plenty of uncomfortable folks. So all I do is go inside my head while they do their prayer and recite a spell or two to myself. It harms none and amazingly it made ZERO difference to my own recitation.

People have got to relax and quit needing to be seen doing what they are doing. I swear sometimes I believe people care more about being public than being faithful. It’s tantamount to the kid who makes a scene because instead of just doing something in private he HAS to show everyone else the task he accomplished. Thing is these people aren’t kids.

Oh and before you jump me for being completely anti-Christian, I hate the little teens who just have to show everyone that they are eco-friendly pagans. It’s fine to discuss the stuff and if you want to admit to me you are Christian then fine. I hold nothing against you at all for it. Worship how you like and you’ll never hear me tell you how wrong you are or that I have it all figured out. Start pushing it on others and then yes I get a little tired of it.

-Kyo

Originally posted by KyoZero
Worship how you like and you’ll never hear me tell you how wrong you are or that I have it all figured out. Start pushing it on others and then yes I get a little tired of it.

The Wiccan Rede is one of my favorite religious writings. And i fully believe the concept, "An cause no harm, do what ye will".

But the two sentences above are an interesting juxtaposition. You cannot tell a person to "worship how they like", and then put limits on that.

I live my faith daily, openly and for all to see. I express my faith by action, through duty. My son may hear me talk about the underlying reasons of what i do, but for the most part i don't discuss it. I just do it.

Not all people are like this. Thank God our Constitution gives them the right to freedom of religious expression, though.

Telling people what they cannot do is what gets tiresome for me.

reply to post by bigfatfurrytexan

2. stated non-Christians fighting tooth and nail for this mans freedom (i am in the last group, but nowhere near as artful as JPZ)

*SIGH*

The principals freedom is NOT being infringed upon. He can privately pray to his deity of choice/indoctrination till he turns blue and craps out lollipops.

He is not allowed by law to blast his religious convictions whilst working in his official capacity as a government worker.

No freedoms are being taken away here, so can we please PLEASE stop this idiotic garbage argument? The government is a secular government and can not by law establish any religion regardless of how many adherents there are of any particular religion in this nation. This is constitutionally guaranteed and we left England as we deemed it tyranny to force people to follow one religion established by the government. If the principal does not like American law, he can quit his job working for the government and go work at a Christian private school.

reply to post by sirnex


Let us make a list of government components shall we?

Federal, State, Local

Schools
Hospitals
LEOs
Fire Departments
Automobile Manufacturers
Financial Institutions
Insurance Companies
etc etc etc

As of right now, the government is 58% of the economy, that should be a good indicator of what I have been stating all along.

The government is taking over everything. Therefore, you have none of your rights because the government can and will take your rights ,because they have the say in the government. RIGHT?

1+1=2 Not 3 not Betelgeuse.

When the government pervades everything, they can use this to abrogate or derogate your rights. Period.

You are using the argument in this thread. Period.

Can you not see this?

You may not stand up in front of the crowd on a PA system as Principal and announce to the football audience details of your personal love life.

Does this mean your right to have a personal love life is being infringed or are all of you missing the point completely?

reply to post by Jean Paul Zodeaux


Wow! I can't say I've ever been called a tyrant before. That's a first. lol

First off, you twisted my words. I didn't qualify the first amendment to mean separation of church and state. I said it should be a LAW that comes before the 1st amendment. Just like the trespassing and harassment ANALOGY I used. It's not bait and switch. It's an analogy to make a point. Some laws come before our rights.

You have said a lot on here, but you don't seem to grasp this most basic concept. The principal has every right to practice his religion outside of his job while he is representing the state. While he is on the clock, representing the state, he should refrain from practicing his religion. The second he gets off that podium, he can pray in PRIVATE by himself or with a group. That's his first amendment right. He just shouldn't do it while he is representing the state.

Private worship doesn't mean you can only worship in your home. You can do it anywhere and with anyone. Hence the idea that everyone in the stands can pray on their own, with a private group. It's just that the STATE should not be leading the prayer. The LAW of separation of church and state should be in place, so that anyone representing the state must abide by that law BEFORE their first amendment rights.

Teachers shouldn't lead each class with a prayer, judges shouldn't say a prayer before a trial, police officers shouldn't quote scripture while arresting someone, and public school principals shouldn't lead the crowd in a prayer before a football game. They are all free, even while on the job, to pray PRIVATELY on their own or with a group of WILLING participants. They just shouldn't be able lead a group, unwillingly, while they are representing the state. That is in no way taking away their first amendment rights. It is them abiding by a law while representing the state. If they have a problem with that law, then don't represent the state.

Freedom of speech. If he wants to rant about his love life, he may do so . . . but I suspect he will not have a job for long after.

What right is one infringing on if one prays over the PA? Does that cause harm to your life, liberty, or property? Anyone?


Posted Via ATS Mobile: m.abovetopsecret.com

Originally posted by K J Gunderson
You may not stand up in front of the crowd on a PA system as Principal and announce to the football audience details of your personal love life.

Does this mean your right to have a personal love life is being infringed or are all of you missing the point completely?

Why can't you? As long as it wouldn't violate decency laws, you certainly can.

But then you have to ask yourself....would you do that to a paying audience? And if you did, would you expect them to come back as future customers?

Reply to post by Reflection

BS.

No laws should EVER come before rights. Rights are God given (or you are endowed with them as a human), not government given. No law can ever supercede our rights.

Epic fail.


Tyrant indeed.


Posted Via ATS Mobile: m.abovetopsecret.com

I can guarantee that if I were there I would have brought back a cross and burnt it in the parking lot. Asking people to pray is rediculous. Am I satanic? No.

Do gay people ask hundreds of people over the loudspeakers to commit gay sexual acts? No.

He has a right to state his religious views in any forum EXCEPT LOCAL, STATE , AND FEDERAL funded events.

The constitution is very clear on the separation on church and state for VERY good reasons. It is very important that it stays that way also. If you need to know why just google and read what our founding fathers said about the matter. They know damn well better than any of us what it is like living in a monarchy/ theocracy.

You know, there is a thing called separation of church and state, thats very plainly in the constitution...Now, correct me if i am incorrect, but are the schools not run by the state...Unless this was a private school, this principle should keep his PERSONAL OPINIONS to himself, not pushing his beliefs on others....If he wants to do this he should start some type of school bible study or some crap.

Just my .02$

reply to post by Lemon.Fresh


Our rights are our rights with in reason. You can't stand just outside the property of someone and scream obscenities to a point that it is not harassment. You can say you are going to kill the President, but not with out consequences.


This tyrant stuff is absolutely ridiculous. This has nothing to do with the first amendment anyway, as so many of you think. It is about what the roles of our government should be. No one is taking away the first amendment rights of the people employed by the state and representing the state. They are all free to practice their religion, EVEN WHILE ON THE JOB, as long as it is in PRIVATE. Private doesn't mean they have to go behind closed doors, it means they can't practice it in public WHILE REPRESENTING THE STATE. Like a public school teacher leading the class in prayer or a public school principal preaching to the crowd before a high school football game. That would be the STATE practicing RELIGION. That is not one of the roles of government. The law of separation of church and state should be in place to keep these things from happening. If a state employee or rep violates this, then they should be fired, not go to jail, but fired. In no way is that a violation of their first amendment. It's a law that ensures that the STATE refrains from practicing religion. Not the individuals but the STATE.

It really all comes down to whether or not you believe there should be separation of church and state. If you don't then we can agree to disagree, but calling me a tyrant is just flat out wrong and insulting.


[edit on 27-5-2010 by Reflection]

This thread has reinforced to me that religion is the cause of division of people and animosity toward each other. I imagine if this conversation was taking place in person, face to face with each other, I have no doubt it would lead to violence.

Originally posted by The_Zomar
I can guarantee that if I were there I would have brought back a cross and burnt it in the parking lot. Asking people to pray is rediculous. Am I satanic? No.

Do gay people ask hundreds of people over the loudspeakers to commit gay sexual acts? No.

No one is forcing anyone to pray. Overreact much?

Originally posted by IamBoon
He has a right to state his religious views in any forum EXCEPT LOCAL, STATE , AND FEDERAL funded events.

Please show me where the Constitution says such.

The constitution is very clear on the separation on church and state for VERY good reasons.

Wrong again buddy. The Constitution says no such thing.

[edit on 5/27/2010 by Lemon.Fresh]

Originally posted by Lemon.Fresh

Originally posted by The_Zomar
I can guarantee that if I were there I would have brought back a cross and burnt it in the parking lot. Asking people to pray is rediculous. Am I satanic? No.

Do gay people ask hundreds of people over the loudspeakers to commit gay sexual acts? No.

No one is forcing anyone to pray. Overreact much?

Originally posted by IamBoon
He has a right to state his religious views in any forum EXCEPT LOCAL, STATE , AND FEDERAL funded events.

Please show me where the Constitution says such.


[Quote] The constitution is very clear on the separation on church and state for VERY good reasons.

Wrong again buddy. The Constitution says no such thing.

Can you help me out?

I am having trouble finding where in the constitution it says I may be stripped of my right to drive if I fail to pass a motor vehicle inspection. In fact, there are all kinds of laws and rules I can not find in the constitution.

Does that make them invalid or can you point them out to me?

I really do not understand why people keep running under the constitution. Help me.

Originally posted by bigfatfurrytexan

I live my faith daily, openly and for all to see. I express my faith by action, through duty. My son may hear me talk about the underlying reasons of what i do, but for the most part i don't discuss it. I just do it.

And that my new friend is what faith is....not this making whiney speeches and showy displays of worship...

You earn MASSIVE points for me in that realm

-Kyo