Question of Morality: The Draft

Someone on these forums mentioned the possibility of a draft in the near future, I don't really know the likelihood of such an event, but it did interest me enough to go ahead and do a bit of research.

Unfortunately, what I have found is that a lot of Americans look at draft dodgers as though they are scum. As though all people were bred to fight on command.

It seems not only like a violation of FREEWILL/FREEDOM, but also extortion. (IE, forcing someone to fight against their will; regardless of their political/philosophical/lifestyle/moral beliefs.)

It seems really messed up to threaten with fines and prison time. Seriously. What is with so many Americans seeing some of their rights violated SOMETIMES, and other times they feel as though the current system couldn't possibly be better.

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It just seems very annoying to me that so many people think in this broken manner.

Then this retarded form of thinking comes into question, "You wanna take advantage of our freedoms, but won't die for them?" I guess that by the same token you can say, "You wanna take advantage of our economy, but you don't wanna pay up your savings?"

Both have been slapped with the 'Anti-Patriot' moniker.

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It just seems extremely disgusting to me that people get so nasty when someone talks about not wanting to fight. Not everyone cares for violence, or to chance throwing their life away when all they wanna do is be productive in another manner.


It seems no different to me than extortion. "You either do what I say, or I'll throw you in prison."

The whole prospect of FIGHTING for your freedoms is a matter of choice.

There are other ways to fight ... and war is just primitive and retarded. All the casualties are unnecessary and the psychological trauma is just very unnecessary.

[edit on 24-5-2010 by SentientBeyondDesign]

All throughout history kings have battled one another with slave armies. The twentieth century was no different.

I purely reject even the notion of a draft.

I feel that if there are not enough people recruited to fight oversees, then they will come to our door.

I don't think Americans would take a country invading us very nicely, if you know what I mean.

Then this retarded form of thinking comes into question, "You wanna take advantage of our freedoms, but won't die for them?" I guess that by the same token you can say, "You wanna take advantage of our economy, but you don't wanna pay up your savings?"

Both have been slapped with the 'Anti-Patriot' moniker.

I agree with you 100% star and flag from me. The important thing here is that not everyone is cut out to be a soldier, literally only a few can run out fighting by nature and make a difference in doing so. Those who are called to such action do it FIRST for their countrymen back home who enjoy liberty and themselves SECONDLY. Not everyone has to die for freedom but I believe everyone should be willing to.

As far as being labeled anti patriotic for not going along with the war of the time I leave you with a quote from Herman Goering that you are probably familiar with.


“Naturally the common people don’t want war. But after all, it is the
leaders of a country who determine the policy, and it’s always a
simple matter to drag people along whether it is a democracy or a
fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship.
Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of
the leaders. This is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are
being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and
for exposing the country to danger. It works the same in every
country.”
Hermann Goering,

[edit on 24-5-2010 by snowen20]

[edit on 24-5-2010 by snowen20]

reply to post by SentientBeyondDesign



Conscientious Objectors have often shown themselves prepared to work in other, non-violent capacity and imo, they should be allowed to do so

War is not just about notches on the rifle. It's about strategy, administrative-behind the scenes, supply, driving, flying, delivering, etc. And of course, it's about caring for the injured and providing the fallen with some dignity in death. Conscientious Objectors have proven themselves worthy in all the above and more capacity

In the past, Conscientious Objectors have been accused of cowardice and it used to be the fashion to identify and humiliate them with white feathers as the 'badge of cowardice'. This resulted in hundreds of men of conscience being beaten, even killed, for declining to kill or be killed by, complete strangers

Royalty and 'world leaders' strut in uniform to appeal to patriotism. And they're keen to deliver 'rousing patriotic speeches' to the masses they've terrified with tales of the 'enemy'. But when was the last time anyone saw a king or president heading the charge against that 'enemy' ? For example, Cheyney and Bush --- architects of the slaughter of millions in the past decade alone -- were draft dodgers. Not conscientious objectors. They didn't dodge the draft because they harboured any 'moral' objection to death and killing. No -- Bush and Cheyney were too cowardly and consumed with self-interest and self-preservation, even in youth, to put themselves in any danger. And in old age, they invented wars and sent other people's sons to kill and die

*IF* those 'leaders' who cry for war are compelled ... compelled ... to physically lead the charge against the 'enemies' they've created -- then there would be no more wars

reply to post by SentientBeyondDesign


Dear SentientBeyondDesign

The only ones trying to take your freedoms away are your leaders.

Is NK going to invade anytime soon???

Will Iran make a beach assault of Chesapeake Bay???

Some how I think both of these are unlikely.

Your leaders are your enemy it doesn’t come from outside.

This is as true today as it ever it was www.youtube.com...

You should not equate the "Draft" directly to issue of morality for 2 reasons... There are many occupations in the military which are service oriented and it not unreasonable for the government establish law to require people 18 years of age to be on the selective service. That does not necessarily mean you will be drafted, or that you will be sent off to war. It does not mean you will be draft, and most likely won't since we have had an all volunteer military for decades, a draft has not been necessary. The fact that you have to register for selective service does not mean you will be drafted. Some people might have a moral issue with killing other people and I can see where a person might have a moral issue with pulling the trigger on another human, however there are many occupations where a person could be in service to their country in other roles. Since we do not have a "Draft", why is there a question of morality? If you are saying you have an issue with the Selective Service Requirement... That is another issue about a law that probably needs to be revised. I'd say to you, be thankful we live in a country that has a group of young men and women how choose the military as a career. There are many of us who are proud of those people who make it their business to serve. It is good training for anyone, even if you do not make it a career. The military has mental hygiene setup to deal with moral issues related to killing people and they have a pretty good way of screening and discharging people who are unfit or not capable of participating is combat roles. Like I said.. there are many roles in the military which do not infringe on people moral objections and the military is more than accomodating and capable of addressing these issues.

What I find offensive is the way Americans treat their former military... These fine men and women serve their country proudly and when they return, are discriminated against and offered very little support in the civilian world.

As far as a person "Dodging the Draft"... a non-issue since there is no draft. Registering for Selective Service is a law, and in place for different reason. It is reasonable for the military to know its potential candidate pool, and there is nothing particularly controversial with how that information is used. I personally think military is a really good thing, and it teaches you things you would not learn in the civilian world. The best way I can put it... it helps boys and girls become respectable men and women.

I am not a career military person, but I did serve 4 years and it is something that was difficult, but I would not trade that experience for anything.

I don't mind them drafting me as long as they don't mind me running like a p**** once I see guys next to me getting shot.

Originally posted by mapsurfer_
The best way I can put it... it helps boys and girls become respectable men and women.

And then they go to Afghanistan and return home with PTSD and a raging heroin habit....


Oh sure, we'll respect them; they're veterans after all - But many will be screwed in the head for the rest of their lives. They won't respect themselves so much as they once did.

Some of them will die and some will be horribly militated. But we respect our veterans (maybe that's why millions are homeless and thousands kill themselves each year).



Respectable indeed.

reply to post by mapsurfer_


I'm sure there are people that regret being in military simply because they didn't want to be part of whatever it was that they were trying to achieve. It is simply a matter not wanting to be part of that engine.

As for "Selective Service", it is not much different at all than the draft. Since it is seen as a contingency plan in the event; meaning if the occasion arises, it would just reinstate the draft.

Some people simply want nothing to do with military conflict, and to force them to is just unreasonable, imo. If you don't wanna plot schematics on a computer because you don't fully support the reasons that your country is at war, then you shouldn't have to.


Especially with the recent wars. You have Americans in the middle-east killing innocent people, losing themselves in the chaos, not even really aware of what the hell they're doing over there.

How does that add up?


If I took you, you who has NO desire to adopt a "do as your told, don't ask questions mentality," and said, "Do this task for me." "Why?" "Just do it."

You wouldn't be getting a rhyme or reason, and if you did, it might not make sense to you. You may not be the type to surrender their trust to their government immediately, believing wholeheartedly that the PTB are doing what's in your best interest. Or the interest of the American people.

Maybe you believe there are some crafty and shady characters afoot.

Why would you want ANY part in the war, at all? You may not be sure of the political agenda.

[edit on 25-5-2010 by SentientBeyondDesign]

I would be fine with conscription. Where everyone at 18 will have to be required to serve a certain amount of years.

It depends on what kind of situation we were in when it comes to the draft.

If we were in a war like vietnam...no i dont believe in the draft.But if we were in a war the level of a world war or a huge regional war where it was unknown if we could win...i support the draft fully then.

When the country that i grew up to love is in danger and every value and ideal i hold dear would be destroyed...i think its time to shut up about 'damn politicians and there wars blah blah blah'.

My point being...when the country is in danger when it comes to a huge war...put away your reservations and hate and distrust.

If its a HUGE war where our victory is in doubt(ww2 level)i say draft me. Im not ashamed or afraid to die for my country. I would lay my life down for the stars and stripes. I would consider it an honor to join the ranks of those who died before me for the exact same reason. who knows...maybe i will meet my ancestor who fought to help this country break off from england.

Originally posted by SentientBeyondDesign
reply to post by mapsurfer_

 

I'm sure there are people that regret being in military simply because they didn't want to be part of whatever it was that they were trying to achieve. It is simply a matter not wanting to be part of that engine.

As for "Selective Service", it is not much different at all than the draft. Since it is seen as a contingency plan in the event; meaning if the occasion arises, it would just reinstate the draft.

Some people simply want nothing to do with military conflict, and to force them to is just unreasonable, imo. If you don't wanna plot schematics on a computer because you don't fully support the reasons that your country is at war, then you shouldn't have to.


Especially with the recent wars. You have Americans in the middle-east killing innocent people, losing themselves in the chaos, not even really aware of what the hell they're doing over there.

How does that add up?


If I took you, you who has NO desire to adopt a "do as your told, don't ask questions mentality," and said, "Do this task for me." "Why?" "Just do it."

You wouldn't be getting a rhyme or reason, and if you did, it might not make sense to you. You may not be the type to surrender their trust to their government immediately, believing wholeheartedly that the PTB are doing what's in your best interest. Or the interest of the American people.

Maybe you believe there are some crafty and shady characters afoot.

Why would you want ANY part in the war, at all? You may not be sure of the political agenda.

[edit on 25-5-2010 by SentientBeyondDesign]

And no...i dont care if it was a politicle screw up.I may not be in military service...but i swore my own oath to protect this nation. so you can cower in your corner and rant about "unjust wars and innocents".

There have been millions of you and millions of me since the dawn of time.

I was born with red white and blue in my soul. i dont know what you were born with.

and no im not a sheep. i know all wars serve some politicle agenda....just like any other war. and i still dont care.

probably in your opinion im evil. because i know wars are 'bad and politicle blah blah blah' and yet i fully understand it and still support my country.

i still dont care. if my country's in danger...even if my country started it...i would still lay down my life.

me and you were cut from different cloth...so you would not understand one bit even if i spelled it out for you.

you are just another bleeding heart. while im just another patriot warhawk.

[edit on 25-5-2010 by tauempire]

[edit on 25-5-2010 by tauempire]

reply to post by tauempire


I take it you were born so late that you avoided the draft?

Is that the case?


*It often is with those who promote the draft; they usually have never been drafted nor elected to serve. It is pathetic when you think about it.

Exuberant1, I'd like to just point out that PTSD is something that can effect anyone and not exclusively a disorder that only vets get. Same with bipolar and list of mental disorders. I would agree that some people might have or develop mental issues, but to say that military service causes PTSD isn't true. People have predispositions for mental issues and the same goes for addiction of any type.. you could be an addict as a civilian alot easier that in the military. The military has piss testing, the buddy system and a support system that far exceeds any level of support that you might get on the street. Homelessness and Suicide? anyone could fall into that category regardless of military service.

All of that part of your reasoning was a bit off topic, but you got your point across. I still stand by my statement that military training is a character builder. By the end of basic training, the military knows damn well if an individual is going to be suited for combat or some other role. What I am trying to explain is that you cannot connect the dots from draft to combat because the military is more complex than that and they are willing to accept certain people in a number of non-combat roles, and those who suffer from mental issues get medically discharged. You may not have any respect for our service men and women... but I do.

The people who doubt what I have said, have never served and don't know. Anyone who goes through life thinking they can do it without taking orders from your superiors, good luck on your next job. I don't advocate war or anything like that... I was only giving my perspective on the topic of morality of the draft.

Originally posted by mapsurfer_
You may not have any respect for our service men and women... but I do.

You respect them so much you'd stick them with a bunch of draftees, instead of volunteers.

You respect the service so much, you would see people forced into it.

You have not served have you?

reply to post by SentientBeyondDesign


The Draft is immoral and indecent - it is basically saying "Are you willing to go out there and die?" and if people want to avoid that, I agree.

If some people in America are disgusted by people who are draft dodgers then I would ask THEM, those people, to go and be drafted.

Originally posted by Exuberant1

Originally posted by mapsurfer_
You may not have any respect for our service men and women... but I do.

You respect them so much you'd stick them with a bunch of draftees, instead of volunteers.

You respect the service so much, you would see people forced into it.

You have not served have you?

Yes sir I was in the US Army... How about you?

reply to post by mapsurfer_


I'm sure you were....

But you weren't drafted, were you? You joined of of your own accord, correct?

Do you think draftees are more effective soldiers than volunteers?

reply to post by Exuberant1


Did you serve in the military?

I enlisted in 1981 when I turned 18. Nobody has been "Drafted" since the Vietnam era. I have worked with people who were draftees and they happened to be my superiors when I served. Alot of them were seasoned and I considered them to be hard asses, but it sort of comes with the territory. Alot of them were career soldiers, and I was not. I served my time and moved on.
It really makes no difference because the topic is not about me. You can't really develop a stereotype of a draftee because there were many of that type who were quite successful.

reply to post by mapsurfer_


Do you think draftees are more effective soldiers than volunteers?

You must have a reason for wanting the draft so bad - surely you think the draft would make the military better.

*Because if you believe draftees are less effective than volunteers and yet you want the army inundated with draftees, then you are lobbying for a less effective fighting force.




[edit on 25-5-2010 by Exuberant1]