Cap and Trade - Does Anyone Support It? - What's the Alternative?

I've just recently learned what Cap and Trade actually is. I'm trying to form my opinion about it, and I have some questions about it and about our existing system to further educate myself about C&T and its alternatives. I would appreciate your answers to the following questions (or other facts and opinions you think are relevant):

What are we doing now to limit the pollution that C&T is meant to address?
Are there even limits on these industrial polluters?
Will C&T limits be much lower than the current limits?
How will C&T increase OUR energy or other costs?
Why do you support or oppose Cap and Trade?

Please - I'm not really interested in how much you hate Obama because he's pushing C&T. I would LOVE for this to be an educational thread instead of the same political rhetoric we can read in a thousand other threads here.

I am looking to educate myself, with facts and opinion ON CAP AND TRADE, not on Obama. Thanks.


[edit on 5/24/2010 by Benevolent Heretic]

What are we doing now to limit the pollution that C&T is meant to address?
CO2 is not a pollutant, that is the only thing addressed in Cap and Tax

Are there even limits on these industrial polluters?
There are maximum outputs of actual pollutants now, I do not know what they are.

Will C&T limits be much lower than the current limits?
Do not know.

How will C&T increase OUR energy or other costs?
According to Obama energy costs would necessarily skyrocket, meaning every single price in our economy will necessarily skyrocket.

Why do you support or oppose Cap and Trade?
Previous answers plus. The last I read through the bill, the expansion of government is going to double in the number of officials. Every single town, city, county and state will have to hire on additional government bureaucrats to implement this debacle. The building codes of California will be made the Federal standard.

Sorry, this is another HUGE federal power grab and expansion. Increased taxes, increased prices of everything, government control of your heat and ac in your home, gov control of your electric in your home. Is there anything else you want to know?

My rough estimates on the costs involved will be tripling of energy costs and doubling of prices for everything else.

[edit on 5/24/2010 by endisnighe]

Carbon tax.

You spew it out into the air & there is a specific price per unit you pay.

No trading, as if you had a pre-existing right to take a crap into the air.

*snip*
No dodges.

That has an immediate effect that polluting industries are no longer economically profitable unless they change their engineering.

It could be set up to increase over time. So industries would feel it more lightly at first & know that they needed to re-engineer because it would only get worse with time.

It would also give notice to us all where we needed to focus engineering expertise to keep all necessary goods & services flowing, without committing environmental suicide as a species.

No cap & trade cop-outs.
No nonsense.

You pollute, you pay. PERIOD.


Mod Note: Profanity/Circumvention Of Censors – Please Review This Link.
www.abovetopsecret.com...

[edit on 25-5-2010 by GAOTU789]

Cap and Trade - What's the Alternative?

Haha.

Not having Cap & Trade.

Cap & Trade, alternatively referred to as Cap & Tax, Crap & Tax, Crap & Trade etc., was instituted in Europe and CO2 emissions increased; the banks couldn't figure out how to profit from it and it got repealed.

The US iteration of Cap & Trade is a means of securitizing the air. Literally. Derivatives for CO2. The big boys like Exxon, GE, etc get waivers or are allowed to buy up unlimited CO2/other gas permits, then artificially inflate the price. Smaller companies then pay a premium for the permits and are allotted a maximum capitalization, i.e. the big companies eliminate smaller competition. Then Goldman Sachs/JP Morgan/Chicago Climate Exchange et al bundle them up in derivatives and sell them to god knows who.

Voila! Command and control manufacturing controlled entirely by the elites.

Here is your alternative-

The Restore America Plan - Text

The Restore America Plan

of the De jure Grand Juries
of the People of the united States of America
assembled under God

standing as
Guardians of the Free Republics

Restore America Plan is a bold achievable strategy for behind-the-scenes peaceful reconstruction of the de jure institutions of government without controversy, violence or civil war. After consultation with high ranking members of the United States armed forces, the Plan is in the process of assembling the Guardians of the Free Republics and reinhabiting the De jure Grand Juries to:

* Restore and reinhabit the de jure institutions of lawful government.

* Terminate illicit corporations posing as legitimate governments, in particular the territorial jurisdiction United States Federal Corporation (corp. ref. 28 U.S.C. 3002) posing as the de jure United States of America.

* Terminate all presumed powers of attorney to such corporations.

* End the foreclosure nightmare (for borrowing against one’s own credit).

* End tax prosecutions for resisting the transfer of private wealth to foreign banking cartels such as I.R.S. (former Puerto Rico Bureau of Taxation).

* End street assaults against the sovereign People for failing to exhibit a State-issued confession of subject-class citizenship.

* End all prosecutions which lack an injured party.

* End admiralty prosecutions for kidnapping and other heinous crimes against mankind as “commercial crimes” against the corporate State under a contrived corporate color-of-law venue (corp. ref. 27 C.F.R. 72.11).

* Terminate the intrusion of corporations posing as the state into every aspect of the People’s lives.

* End the use of covert contracts such as Form 1040, car registrations, birth certificate applications, and bank signature cards which confess the signer to be a legal fiction subject of the United States Federal Corporation (“U.S. person”) that has waved his/her rights in favor of state-issued privileges.

* End the use of deeds which classify the People as “tenants” on their own land, thereby transferring control to incorporated County registrars and tax assessors.

* End the perversion of marriage into a commercial system of state-issued privileges through the so-called “marriage license” whereby incorporated “courts” presume the “right” to trespass on families and kidnap children.

* End the hijacking of automobile ownership through DMV registrations which covertly exchange the divine rights of travel and ownership for the state-issued “privileges” of “driving” and “title.”

* In place of all of the above, substitute sovereign identification, diplomatic immunity and sovereign passports to facilitate safe passage throughout the world free from corporate State molestation and terror.

* Restore the People’s money and wealth from the banking institutions, war profiteers, and international loan sharks.

* Instantly vest all mortgages, auto loans and personal business loans

“issued” by members of the Fed. The state shall hold The no paper on, or debts against, the sovereign People, directly or through its agencies and licensed banking institutions.

* Instantly end all non-consensual and unlawful taxation including all taxes on the sacred rights of labor and privacy.

* Empower and inspire the sovereign People to righteousness through such renewed abundance.

* Issue orders to the military and police powers to enforce the Peoples’ divine rights of birth.

* Reabsorb all de facto actors into lawful de jure capacity.

* End the perverse act of requiring the People to pray to “courts” as is now required under corporate rules and traditions.

* Restore the de jure judicial institutions including the district court of the United States and the one supreme Court.

* Quietly mirror the strategies of 1933 thereby using their (our) institutions, military and public officials to undo eighty years of subterfuge without provoking alarm, controversy or armed conflict.

* Return the military and law enforcement institutions to proper and lawful de jure sovereign authority from the clutches of corporate actors.

* Forgive all corporate actors who repent for their State-sponsored crimes against mankind. Remove the recidivists from office.

* Do all of the above, and more, peacefully, discreetly, quietly and honorably, behind the scenes, without public proclamations or provocative actions against a general public that is mostly unaware of the hijacking of their free de jure American republics, and their hapless media.

Guardians of the Free Republics
by
Tim Turner
Tom Schaults
Regan Dwayne
Sam Kennedy
the
Guardian Elders

The alternative to Cap and Trade is Free Energy.

Why be content to accept another one of their sure to fail systems that serves very few very well and the rest of us quite poorly?

Originally posted by endisnighe
CO2 is not a pollutant, that is the only thing addressed in Cap and Tax

It may not be by some definitions, but too much of it in the environment and things start to die. An imbalance causes problems. So it doesn't really matter if we call it a "pollutant" or "roses". If an overabundance of it kills things, that overabundance should be dealt with.

Originally posted by slank
No trading, as if you had a pre-existing right to take a crap into the air.
...
You pollute, you pay. PERIOD.

I agree. The part of Cap and Trade that I don't like is the "trade". I support capping pollutants (no matter what you call them).

People suffocate & die when caught in a pocket of CO2 [pooled in a valley from volcanic gases].

How the HECK can you say CO2 is 'not a pollutant?'

Get back to planet earth please.

I guess death by CO2 suffocation is not 'real' death? What?

reply to post by Benevolent Heretic


BH

Cap and Trade is not what it appears to be, it is based upon environmental concerns
on the surface how ever I believe it is really based upon economics and global power.
Therefore I believe it is an attempt by our government to keep us in the competitive "GAME" globally. If you think about it, the USA has been at the forefront of every
technological innovation since the inception of modernity. This new era will be the next frontier and engine of the worlds economies and I believe our government knows how important it will be for us to be at the forefront of this.

If America does not jump in the deep end from the get go, we run a real risk of losing our stature, for it will be the first time where we have not been the leaders in world wide innovation. It seems GE and a few others are gambling upon this scheme going into practice, I believe Cap and Trade is a form of funding and a manner to artificially compel this change. This is very big picture stuff, just like government compelled and taxed to fund the interstate system which was an economic investment,
intended to benefit the common economy to increase capacity, efficiency and commerce. I believe this is a manner to create a new economy as the focus and effects
will produce more technology, employment, products, specialists and a host of other things that would likely "put the wind back in Americas economic sails". However at this point there is no real reason to move in this new direction, C&T is the manner to achieve this, right or wrong, the rest of the world IS concerned about the environment, efficiency, usage, conservation and preservation.

I figured this out a while back and was also provided some insider information that filled in some of the missing pieces. Much of the globe WILL be in the game
and are already, a few are far beyond our current capacity. If America does not get in I fear we might lose our edge for ever, beyond all the propaganda this is what many fear
I suspect.

Just imagine if the US was not at the forefront of Automobiles, aeronautics,
TV, computers, etc?


Well this is the next in that series, the amount of MONEY and power this new industry might stir up could very well eclipses all the others combined. Also note that this new technological race can be be implemented in Automobiles, aeronautics,
TV, computers... ='s $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

and we will benefit from that $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$, like we always do, correct?

So basically C&T is a manner of compulsion to vie for a place in the next frontier, FEDS compel business to adapt by buying new technology which will seep out into the marketplace, creating jobs, product, yada ya...

This is what nobody is talking about, Obama dances around this true motive and the righties are practicing the religion of ideology trumps science or their countries practical position in the global hierarchy. I believe the complex and rather imperative
nature of such a conquest makes the environmental aspect easier to sell to the public.
This is where you have to make the judgement BH, this is actually a clear example of the FEDS trying to look after AMERICA in a funny sort of way. It is clear to me that if we do not jump in head first we might very well drop off the historical graph of precedence.
However it IS a form of "industry building" and it is NOT based upon the full range of truth. My father was a climate/Earth process scientist... He gave me this little example
to explain why the ozone layer needed to be protected and the rest - late 80's

Global warming was first contemplated by observing Venus. Even though it is the farther away from sun than Mercury it is far hotter. This is due to the atmosphere
and its component gases, CO2 is off the charts and this inturn absorbs radiation, which creates heat thru friction. There are no biological entities or planetary process's to counter this imbalance of which the Earth has, etc... This is also why the Ozone layer was of great concern, specifically because provided Venus has a substantial
amount of O3 its temperature and climate would become a bit more hospitable to human exploration in the future. Also the same reason deforestation is still a great problem, there will be a point where we could very well kill our selves due to creating
a cascading imbalance where our production of particulate and green house gases
will overtake the Earths ability to counter the unnatural strains placed on it by mankind... water vapor is also a green house gas, as is methane, but we have not artificially increased this production...

Anyhow BH, it is a funding scheme really, it requires your judgement really, there is no natural economic force to spur this new era, this is just an attempt to ignite it.

I would look at it as an Economic issue first and foremost.

I do not like the manipulation on the left, as I do not like the dogmatic flat Earth theory
on the right. Bull abound...

It is true that C&T is an attempt to compel and force to achieve a specific goal, this is where the argument is, should USA FED attempt to shape Americas industry in such a manner???

reply to post by slank


You can be poisoned by pure oxygen also.

Want to eliminate that?!

Originally posted by endisnighe
What are we doing now to limit the pollution that C&T is meant to address?
CO2 is not a pollutant, that is the only thing addressed in Cap and Tax

Are there even limits on these industrial polluters?
There are maximum outputs of actual pollutants now, I do not know what they are.

Will C&T limits be much lower than the current limits?
Do not know.

How will C&T increase OUR energy or other costs?
According to Obama energy costs would necessarily skyrocket, meaning every single price in our economy will necessarily skyrocket.

Why do you support or oppose Cap and Trade?
Previous answers plus. The last I read through the bill, the expansion of government is going to double in the number of officials. Every single town, city, county and state will have to hire on additional government bureaucrats to implement this debacle. The building codes of California will be made the Federal standard.

Sorry, this is another HUGE federal power grab and expansion. Increased taxes, increased prices of everything, government control of your heat and ac in your home, gov control of your electric in your home. Is there anything else you want to know?

My rough estimates on the costs involved will be tripling of energy costs and doubling of prices for everything else.

[edit on 5/24/2010 by endisnighe]

Well if you would take off the uniform and crucifix for a moment you might have the notion to realize this an attempt to create a new industry. In this case you are looking at the paint and ignoring the engine on the other side of that paint. I am not saying you should agree with it, but I am saying you should put down the banner, expand the brain and start thinking VERY big picture. Introducing new information will not burn your eyes
or effect your position budo

Originally posted by endisnighe
reply to post by slank

 

You can be poisoned by pure oxygen also.

Want to eliminate that?!

Oxygen will burn you to a crisp, bleach you out and destroy your cells

I would suggest you would erect the same wall if the imbalance was in that direction, so would it matter?



[edit on 24-5-2010 by Janky Red]

reply to post by Janky Red


What is this new industry?

The trading of a gas?

How is that going to be bundled? Kinda like the collateralized debt obligations?

So, if I own an acre of woods, do I get 2000 carbon credits that I can trade on the market?

Or is this market, set up by Obama, GE, Soros and all the other elitists scum going to be the new tyrants.

Great, we replace the mafia with the yakuza. Great frelling deal.

I should be happy that instead of paying $3 dollars for 5#s of potatoes I get to pay $6. Or instead of paying $10.72/ kWh I get to pay $32.16/kWh. Gas will go from $3 to $9. My income, property, sales taxes will go up. I will be forced to fund insurance companies. My pay will go down due to the super inflation coming. Unemployment in the US will go from the current 20% to 50%. I will be shot for the clothes I wear by the homeless.

YAYYYY!

Things are looking up!


edit to remove a word openly said on a sci fi show because I was warned so I removed it.

[edit on 5/24/2010 by endisnighe]

CAP AND TRADE, another sceme to take more money from buisnesses and thus you the employer in the end. The buisness will transferre that to you the consumer. GEE, that sounds like a good idea. HEY, then maybe even more buisnesses can go out over seas. THINK about it.

Originally posted by endisnighe
reply to post by Janky Red

 

What is this new industry?

The trading of a gas?

How is that going to be bundled? Kinda like the collateralized debt obligations?

So, if I own an acre of woods, do I get 2000 carbon credits that I can trade on the market?

Or is this market, set up by Obama, GE, Soros and all the other elitists scum going to be the new tyrants.

Great, we replace the mafia with the yakuza. Great frelling deal.

I should be happy that instead of paying $3 dollars for 5#s of potatoes I get to pay $6. Or instead of paying $10.72/ kWh I get to pay $32.16/kWh. Gas will go from $3 to $9. My income, property, sales taxes will go up. I will be forced to fund insurance companies. My pay will go down due to the super inflation coming. Unemployment in the US will go from the current 20% to 50%. I will be shot for the clothes I wear by the homeless.

Frelling YAYYYY!

Things are looking up!

I think you should get credits for owning the acre of woods, cottage growth industry.

But the Mother Lovers are never fair are they?

They will have to balance the act or their conquests will suffer, this is like the new "war"
makes a whole lot of money, but they will need workers for it...

Its seems the US has been tapped to be the big boy, however China is going on their own...

If you think about the art of war I suspect they would want us to pass it up, by our very virtue and system, hence using our system and predisposition's against us. Meanwhile they will create the crap to meet "standards" and we will eat the purple one.

Do forget the Mother Lovers need us, for their accumulations start in our pockets...

The question is will they perform the balancing act well? They go too far and they are sunk

If cost reduction does not meet or reduce consumption and cost of the user end they will be rather screwed.

Mother Lovers

reply to post by endisnighe


OH

the trading of gas

is the stick

I believe the idea is to make everyone invest in the stuff that does not currently exist in order to reduce the penalties, hence, innovation. jobs, fields, specialists, installation,
retail, delivery, warehousing, R&D....................

I am just saying, not supporting

reply to post by endisnighe


No one is talking about eliminating it. Fact is, too much Co2 is dangerous. The spin you're putting on this makes me dizzy!

Thank you, Janky, for that great explanation. I appreciate those who are actually helping me learn something!

Do I support cap and trade? No. Endisnighe is pretty much on the same page I am. It will amount to little more than a transfer of wealth from the poor and middle classes to the wealthy businesses and politicians who are invested in it. The end result will be $6-8 per gallon gas, electric bills going from $100/month to $300, prices for all products shipped in the US will rise significantly, and the unemployment rate will skyrocket, as will crime rates. And good luck if you need to sell an older home to finance the government's little scheme; you're going to have to spend thousands of dollars on upgrades before it passes the local inspection board so you actually can sell it (not to mention the property tax increases to pay for those inspections). It'll be the final nail in the coffin for the struggling poor and working classes of this country, but I think that's really what they're trying to do, anyway. Turn them into government dependents and they won't challenge you.

On the bright side, it will reduce CO2 emissions. Unfortunately, its because a third of the country will be living in tents.

[edit on 25-5-2010 by vor78]

If C&T was truly about saving the planet, we wouldn't have individuals and corps. poised on the ledge waiting to pounce on this new found virtual revenue stream.

The US has the strictest laws regarding auto and factory CO2 emissions of all sorts. Not to mention the regulation of all other pollutants and environmental hazards. That being said, what will cap and trade really accomplish? Not much other than creating a new class of billionaires.

Furthermore, as I understand it, this legislation really only affects the US as if we live under a some imaginary bio dome. What about the massive pollution problems in all of the developing nations that have taken manufacturing away from the US?

One thing is certain, legislation like this will ensure fewer and fewer manufacturers of anything in this country. Meanwhile, nations like China and India are literally choking themselves as they strive to keep up with demand in the manufacturing arena with virtually no regulation on pollution related to autos and factories.

Cap and trade deals with CO2 revenue but it does not address pollution as a whole. It really has all of the trappings of a govt. run Ponzi scheme. Carbon credits?? Really?? Buy carbon credits to justify driving a 1975 Cadillac Eldorado convertible to the corner Ice Cream parlor on Sunday.

What about the volatility and sustainability of our nation's fresh water shed?

I live in the Great Lakes region and I have no plans on budging from this fresh water oasis and I also want to protect it. Meanwhile, areas to the south would love to get their straws in our water.

Just a matter of time before the federal govt. meddles in this:
www.npr.org...