The Dust of the Earth

And the L-RD G-d said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life

Genesis 3:14

Recently I was discussing Genesis 3:14 with a member of my family, specifically that the serpent isn't expelled from Eden like Adam and Eve were.

Instead he is cursed and enmity is placed between humanity and the offspring of this creature.

During the conversation it was noted that the creature would eat dust. We both realized that Adam was formed from dust and Adamah means earth. At this point we both wondered if the curse didn't actually mean dust but meant instead humans. It would explain the enmity between humanity and the creatures. I can't imagine most people being okay with being eaten.

We compared various global myths about serpentine/draconic creatures and there seems to be a thing about them eating people. Even in more modern fantasy stories, the idea of a virgin being sacrificed to a dragon has become cliche.

What I am trying figure out is why this idea isn't explored more. Its also quite interesting that the fact the serpent/dragon and its descendants arn't expelled from paradise. They don't suffer the "Fall" that the Ben Adam (humanity) does.

Around the world, draconic and serpentine creatures are associated with immortality and elixirs of life. In Greek myth the dragon Ladon guards a tree of life that holds golden apples that bestow immortality. In Hinduism the Naga have an association with Amrita, the nectar of immortality. One of the oldest symbols on earth is the symbol of a serpent entwined around a rod or staff, which also could be an allusion to a tree of life. The symbol traces back to a Sumerian serpent god, whose name means "Lord of the Good Tree".

These universal archetypes are rarely explored or discussed. Why? I think there is more to this, the eating of the dust, remaining in paradise, and the association with trees and immortality.

I would like to hear what other ATS members think about it.

I gave you a Star for an interesting post.

One question though is that God loves his creation of humans right? Then it's kind of off why he would curse the serpent to be forced to eat humans for the rest of its life.

reply to post by MikeboydUS


"Eating dust" was an ancient Near East expression meaning something along the lines of "you'll be shamed" or "you'll be defeated".

I would say that he wasn't expelled from the Garden because this particular serpent wasn't really supposed to be there and only went into the Garden to tempt Adam and Eve; once he accomplished his goal, he had no reason to stay. Taking Scripture as a whole, the serpent is identified with Satan and one can see that he didn't stay in the Garden; for example, he is later seen in the heavenly realm in the book of Job and he then went and tempted Christ in the desert. As for his descendants not being expelled, they weren't around yet. Traditionally, the serpents descendants are viewed as being those that don't follow God.

They don't suffer the "Fall" that the Ben Adam (humanity) does.

The serpents fall already occurred, when he rebelled against God. Ultimately though, his fall is worse than that of the Sons of Adam because, the sons of Adam can be redeemed; the serpent can't.

Originally posted by MikeboydUS

I would like to hear what other ATS members think about it.

Which part? There are too many subjects packed into this. How about the last one.
Eden = poor people, or people with no money. Adam & Eve were given money.
Now they have to "pay their way" while the serpent is hidden with the poor.
The wall between the garden of Eden and humanity is the same wall
between weathy and poor people. Note, a poor person can be
cleaned up, taught to speak, and accepted amung the rich.
But a rich person will never be accepted, nor can they
hide, amung the poor. Only their money taken.
In other words the poor will "eat" the rich.
And they know it. That is the enmity
between Eve and the serpent.
This is the vanity of gaining
the wealth of the world
while loosing the soul.
Those are the flaws
of civilization that
tramples on the
poor to build
a utopia.

''For ye have the poor with you always, and whensoever ye will ye may do them good: but me ye have not always.''
-words spoken by Jesus as recorded by Mark 14:7

David Grouchy

reply to post by octotom


Thanks for the reponse.

I used to think like that, that the serpent was the devil, but after looking at the Hebrew and looking at the Satan in Job and elsewhere I just don't see it.

Not once in the Bible does anyone ever call the serpent from Eden the Satan, the closest thing to it is a symbolic reference to something else far more complicated than one being mentioned in the Christian testament in the Book of Revelations.

The dragon thing in Revelations is a symbol of something greater than one being. It has seven heads, ten horns and crowns. This is symbolic of somekind of empire and not a human one, as it gives authority to the human empires symbolized by the beast from the sea. The Bible refers to this inhuman empire as an old adversary. I am convinced that it is the "powers and principalities" that Paul spoke of and Daniel referred to as the chiefs and princes that Michael and Gabriel struggled against. Gabriel told Daniel that he and Michael were the only ones who stood up for humanity against them. I believe they are the Seventy "Angels" or a Great Sanhedrin that rules the nations, whose existence is hinted at in Deuteronomy. Paul basically alludes to the same thing, but without a reference to any number. I could really make a thread to go much further into detail.

That thing in Revelations is far more complicated than a creature in Eden or even one angel.

The serpent in Eden on the other hand is called a creature and just as there is a universal worldwide myth of a flood, there are also worldwide myths of serpentine/draconic creatures. Even the Bible makes reference to the Tannim and Leviathan, which are draconic/serpentine. The Seraphim too have been called serpentine in appearance. Compare the Seraphim to the TianLong (Heavenly Dragons) of Chinese myth. Also consider the staff of the bronze serpent carried by Moses, which mirrors the Sumerian staff of the healing serpent god, known as the Lord of the Good Tree.

I don't think its a coincidence there are these universal tales of draconic creatures and it can't be chalked up to apocryphal speculation by theologians in the dark ages. If we take these myths as indicators, these "serpents" or "dragons" never left Eden and still reside there with the Tree of Life.

What I don't know is if Dust of the Earth, really means the Flesh and Blood of Man.

[edit on 24/5/10 by MikeboydUS]

Lmao @ a snake mentality trying to use the books in favor of human consumption very evil.

Genesis 3:14
So the LORD God said to the serpent, "Because you have done this, "Cursed are you above all the livestock and all the wild animals! You will crawl on your belly and you will eat dust all the days of your life.

The Lord is saying CLEARLY THAT THE SERPENT IS CURSED to live on its belly and devour DUST PARTICALS with every meal it eats as its mouth is so close to the ground causing it to eat DUST WITH EVERY MEAL. So basically GOD is saying the SNAKE is worst off then CATTLE or LIVESTOCK AT THE SLAUGHTER HOUSE ON THERE WAY TO BE SLAUGHTERED, just incase there was a missunderstanding that snakes were premitted to eat humans they were not ever homosapien serpentes

A reminder of who is looking up at who:

And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; he will crush your head, and you will strike his heel."

MAMMAL CRUSHES SNAKES HEAD
SNAKE STRIKES ONLY MY FEET FOR HE CANT REACH ME SPIRITUALLY
MAMMALS UP SNAKES DOWN just sayen




[edit on 5/24/10 by Ophiuchus 13]

if God is jealous and takes revenge, why would he let his angels mate with humans and corrupt them?

the christian god is a demon

reply to post by Totalstranger


He trusted his WATCHERS to watch over not take advantage when the ladies got all cute and sexy. The creator GOD doesnt care to prove he sits back gives us his creations enough rope to hang ourselves or keep slack with faith.

Many run crazy as if he doesnt exist and spread evil around till he gets fed up, CAUSE HE DOESNT WANT TO DESTROY EVEN HIS EVILEST CREATIONS he waits till their evil behaviors are too overwhelming then sends a BALANCER to offset the entire negative causes with A MORE DESTRUCTIVE APPROACH. excuse the caps as I am not yelling at all...brotheren

Originally posted by Totalstranger
if God is jealous and takes revenge, why would he let his angels mate with humans and corrupt them?

the christian god is a demon

I would ask why did the humans do it.

How is G-d a demon? Demons, better refered to as Unclean spirits, have more in common with what other myths refer to as nature spirits and genii loci.

The Hebrew G-d on the other hand doesn't act in that manner. In fact compared to the "thunder and wind gods" who ruled mythical pantheons from Vedic India to Rome, the G-d of Abraham is much more reserved and merciful. In other words He doesn't constantly usurp our free will, even when we act crazy. If He did so there would be no point in us having free will and we would be nothing but mindless robots.

reply to post by MikeboydUS

Not once in the Bible does anyone ever call the serpent from Eden the Satan,

It's never said that he isn't either.

the closest thing to it is a symbolic reference to something else far more complicated than one being mentioned in the Christian testament in the Book of Revelations.

Far more complicated? The Revelation 12 is a lot simpler than you're making it out to be. Here's the verse from Revelation, 12.9:

And the great dragon was thrown down, that ancient serpent, who is called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world—he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.

It's quite clear, obviously clear, that this passage in Revelation is describing Satan's being cast out of heaven. Satan is described as "that ancient serpent". What else could John be referring to? John was a Jew by the way. The New Testament was written by Jews.

The dragon thing in Revelations is a symbol of something greater than one being. It has seven heads, ten horns and crowns.

You're wrong. Satan, or the Dragon, is not described that way in Revelation. You're referring to the beast that is in chapter 13, the beast the rises from the sea. That these two entities are different is blatant in Revelation 13.2:

And to it the dragon gave his power and his throne and great authority.

This is symbolic of somekind of empire and not a human one, as it gives authority to the human empires symbolized by the beast from the sea.

]
No, you're wrong again. Revelation clearly calls the dragon Satan; it's not an empire. Again, look at Revelation 12.9:

And the great dragon was thrown down, that ancient serpent, who is called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world—he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.

The Bible refers to this inhuman empire as an old adversary. I am convinced that it is the "powers and principalities" that Paul spoke of and Daniel referred to as the chiefs and princes that Michael and Gabriel struggled against.

The Bible also clearly says that this "old adversary" spoken of in Revelation 12 is Satan, nothing else. Satan is our "old adversary" because he is the one that continually tempts us to sin and accuses us before God.

You're correct though that there are forces working against us. It's Satan and the other fallen angels. It is Satan's angels, and he himself, that Paul refers to. We struggle against them because they try to influence us to sin. The passage that you're referencing from Daniel 10 is an example of this. The "prince of the kingdom of Persia" is often viewed to be a demon that stood "behind" the King of Persia. Of course, that's only an interpretation and could be wrong.

Gabriel told Daniel that he and Michael were the only ones who stood up for humanity against them.

The Bible doesn't say that it was Gabriel that came to Daniel in Daniel 10. It only says "one having the appearance of a man". Its seems weird that Daniel wouldn't have recognized Gabriel, considering he just saw him in Daniel 9. In fact, based on the description that Daniel gives of this being in Daniel 10:5-7 sounds more like the description of Christ in Revelation 1:13-15. To me, it really seems that this is an example of a Christophany; a pre-incarnate appearance of Christ.

That thing in Revelations is far more complicated than a creature in Eden or even one angel.

No, it's not. Revelation 12 is clearly describing Satan; it even says so. The beast that Satan gives power to is probably an earthly empire or something along those lines, since features are used to describe it like those Daniel used to describe empires. Whatever it is is yet to be seen though.

I don't think its a coincidence there are these universal tales of draconic creatures and it can't be chalked up to apocryphal speculation by theologians in the dark ages. If we are take these myths as an indicator, these "serpents" or "dragons" never left Eden and still reside there with the Tree of Life.

I don't see a coincidence either. All of humanity shares a common heritage. That includes Satan tempting our first parents in the Garden. I do find it curious though that it would appear that all these ancient faiths find some sort of reverence in the serpent, considering that it is due to the serpent's deception that Adam and Eve were expelled from Eden. Know what I mean? Satan's desire is for people to worship him and not God.

And the serpent did leave the Garden. He's walking to and fro on the Earth as we speak!

What I don't know is if Dust of the Earth, really means the Flesh and Blood of Man.

No, as I said, "dust of the Earth" was an ancient Near Eastern expression for "shame and humiliation". It also can express total defeat. Here are other examples of this same expression carrying a "shame and humiliation" idea: Psalm 44:25; 72:9; and Isaiah 49:23.

reply to post by Totalstranger

why would he let his angels mate with humans and corrupt them?

In that particular interpretation of Genesis 6, it wouldn't have been God's angels, but rather Satan's demons that mated with humans.

reply to post by Ophiuchus 13

The Lord is saying CLEARLY THAT THE SERPENT IS CURSED to live on its belly and devour DUST PARTICALS with every meal it eats as its mouth is so close to the ground causing it to eat DUST WITH EVERY MEAL.

While that is entirely possible, it seems from other ancient writings and other poetic writings in the Bible (Genesis 3 is poetry by the way), "eating dust" was an expression of humiliation and defeat.

It's sort of like us saying "the apple doesn't fall far from the tree". Yes, it's true that apples don't fall very far from the tree, but the expression carries a much deeper meaning.

reply to post by octotom


I feel your point of view as well friend, I guess its all on how 1 reads and tries to understand the great books. But atleast we both made it clear that the point was SNAKES EATEN DUST DOESNT OK SNAKES EATING HUMANS...

I argee with it being an empire.."and it came out of the sea"(SEA in this quote is refering to "out of mankind"..using another reference point the bible also refers to mankind as a "sea of people",(too lazy to find the exact phrase)....when the bible means ocean it says ocean.

Democracy comes to mind, people vote for one person "coming out of the sea" because they are elected.

Adam and Eve's sin was they allowed someone else to rule them not the Almighty,The serpent HAD to be made or there would be no need for "freewill",,,,The choice in our life is be ruled by the almighty or be ruled by man,,,Hope this didn't confuse anyone.,,,I know many on here will bash this.

reply to post by octotom


Your leaving out how it starts.

Revelations 12:3

And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.

Seven Heads.
Ten Horns.
Seven Crowns.

This dragon is called a deciever and adversary. Your assuming like many others that "adversary" is a title.

Now if I had to pick an animal, even though this is clearly symbolic, I would of picked Leviathan any day of the week over the serpent in Eden.

Look at Isaiah 27:3

In that day the L-RD will punish Leviathan the fleeing serpent, With His fierce and great and mighty sword, Even Leviathan the twisted serpent; And He will kill the dragon who lives in the sea.

The dragon in Revelations is clearly not the serpent in Eden or Leviathan though, as it is a symbol and not a creature.

You're wrong. Satan, or the Dragon, is not described that way in Revelation. You're referring to the beast that is in chapter 13, the beast the rises from the sea. That these two entities are different is blatant in Revelation 13.2:

I'm wrong? Go back and look at Revelations 12:3 again.

Seven Heads.
Ten Horns.
Seven Crowns.

The human empires, the Beast of the Sea, are in imitation of the Dragon.

Based on what the angel tells John, the Beast of the Seas' heads represent seven hills or foundations , yet they are also seven rulers, and the ten horns represent ten rulers without kingdoms.

How could this be applied to the Dragon is a good question. Someone might say the the seven heads of the Dragon represent the seven planets, but also the seven archetypal gods represented by the seven classical planets in myths around the world. Might even call them the seven Archons, known as the Hebdomad. Now who are the Ten crowns?

I'm not certain but I think it involves a figure known as the Tetractys, which consists of ten points in the form of a triangle. The ten points represent the dimensions of space and the phases of matter. Taken all together were talking about powers that rule over the earth, its space and its matter.

Tetractys
en.wikipedia.org...

Now here, who rules this Hebdomad and Tetractys, I think we meet on common ground.

The Prince of the Powers of the Aer, aka the Powers, Principalities, Chiefs, and Princes. The "god" of this world. So "The Satan" is the ruler of the ancient enemy of humankind, symbolized by the Dragon.

Again completely separate from the serpent in Eden or Leviathan in Isaiah, which are said to be creatures and not symbols.




[edit on 24/5/10 by MikeboydUS]

reply to post by MikeboydUS


You're right. I did overlook the verse that you mention. It wasn't intentional though.

Regardless, the point doesn't change much. Revelation 12:9 still identifies who the dragon is.

This dragon is called a deciever and adversary. Your assuming like many others that "adversary" is a title.

No, I'm not assuming. There is no article in front of "adversary" in the Greek text; it simply reads, "Satan". To try and make a case that with "Satan" in the verse it means "a adversary" is ludicrous considering that the verse says, "That ancient serpent who is called the devil". John is making a point as to who this dragon from heaven is; Satan, which is a name of sorts for the dragon, is the serpent who was in Eden.

The dragon in Revelations is clearly not the serpent in Eden or Leviathan.

No, he definitely is. The dragon in Revelation 12 is the serpent of Eden. What else could John mean by "that ancient serpent"? What other "ancient serpent" would John have in mind?

Based on what the angel tells John, the Beast of the Seas' heads represent seven hills or foundations , yet they are also seven rulers, and the ten horns represent ten rulers without kingdoms.

So people know that don't, you're pulling on something from Revelation 17.

It's not so much that the 10 rulers don't have kingdoms. They just hadn't received their kingdom at the time of John's writing. Yes, the seven heads represent seven rulers. They're not all rulers that rule at once though. According to the angel, five had passed, one is, and one is yet to come. The seven heads represent seven passed empires, or kingdoms.

Again completely separate from the serpent in Eden or Leviathan in Isaiah, which are said to be creatures and not symbols.

I think that you're missing that, while Satan is symbolized as a dragon falling from heaven, John still calls him a serpent. An ancient one at that. And what serpent would a Hebrew have in mind? None other than the serpent from Eden.

reply to post by octotom


Your forgetting Leviathan. I put the verse in there about him.

If I had to pick between it and the serpent in Eden I'm picking Leviathan.

John was definitely recalling Leviathan in the symbolism. In ancient Canaanite myth Leviathan has seven heads and is an enemy of El, much like Tiamat is enemy of Anu(Heavenly Father) in Sumerian myth. The Bible even mentions G-d cracking the heads, plural, of Leviathan. If you are familar with chaoskampf, its one of those universal myths, like the flood and dragons. It involves a Sky Father fighting a cosmic dragon that represents chaos.

Its also no coincidence that Sir Thomas Hobbes picked the name Leviathan for his book on government.

Thomas Hobbes
en.wikipedia.org...

[edit on 24/5/10 by MikeboydUS]

It seems you all have detected multiple dragons, interesting.
2nd

Originally posted by Ophiuchus 13
It seems you all have detected multiple dragons, interesting.
2nd

The Bible is full of references to Tannim, usually translated as dragons.

There appear to be at least three types of draconic creatures mentioned, the classical water tannim, mentioned in Genesis and which Leviathan appears to be the greatest of.

There is also a land variety, which may or may not be the same as the serpent of Eden.

The last is the fiery flying version, which may or may not be related to Seraphim.

Oddly, a number of myths have analogs to these. Ancient China and Mesoamerican myth have versions of Heavenly Serpents or Dragons, which could be analogs to Seraphim. Africa and the Aborgines have Rainbow serpents.

[edit on 24/5/10 by MikeboydUS]

I always look forward to threads from you.

I experienced the Holy Spirit baptism in the spring of 2007, and because the experience was the most unique thing ever to happen to me, it's almost a quest to figure out how this and other biblical mysteries work.

I've had to come to terms with this whole serpent issue. When the word serpent is spoken, my mind was trained to think snake - and I loathe snakes. Often times, His Spirit is likened to living water because it has movement. I am personally fond of the description Jesus gives in Thomas' gospel likening it to a bubbling stream that he tends and also states that the evidence for God in us - is motion and rest. John the Baptist said the baptism to come was of spirit and fire - all of these are very unique aspects of His Spirit and very truthful descriptions of it.

As a Christian (and I'm not your typical one) I understand the veil being ripped and us having access to him. I understand my body is a temple. I understand they are taking up residence inside me because the kingdom is within. So what I had to come to terms with is the old temple that used to house the ark and inside the ark, there were the tablets of law, manna and Aarron's rod. I'm sure you know where this is going now.

Aarron's rod is unique to say the least because it has the capability to become a serpent...... with movement. Then you add in, Jesus saying the Holy Spirit is the comforter, factor in King David saying 'your staff and Rod comfort me' and add one heaping helping of Jesus saying "Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up.'

The definitive sign as to Jesus being all he said he is, is proven by this "lifting up." Going to the cross had to be done because it mimics him lifting up inside us, where he's the head and we are the body and when we have done this we know he is who he claimed to be.

In all honesty, I can see how people speak of such things as the kundalini rising and so forth and here is the serpent/snake connection within my own spiritual walk with God. I'm not sure this will help you in the way that you were looking for, but it's what I can bring in honesty to the discussion from experience.

One more thing. My baptism started in my foot and rose up just like Ezekiel describes the various depths of the living water he experienced consuming him by the temple. It didn't start in my heel but it was the foot.


[edit on 24-5-2010 by Myrtales Instinct]