***Revealed: how Israel offered to sell South Africa nuclear weapons (confirm Israel got em)

Secret apartheid-era papers give first official evidence of Israeli nuclear weapons

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/e25cb7b93938.jpg[/atsimg]
The secret military agreement signed by Shimon Peres, now president of Israel, and P W Botha of South Africa. Photograph: Guardian

Secret South African documents reveal that Israel offered to sell nuclear warheads to the apartheid regime, providing the first official documentary evidence of the state's possession of nuclear weapons.

The "top secret" minutes of meetings between senior officials from the two countries in 1975 show that South Africa's defence minister, PW Botha, asked for the warheads and Shimon Peres, then Israel's defence minister and now its president, responded by offering them "in three sizes". The two men also signed a broad-ranging agreement governing military ties between the two countries that included a clause declaring that "the very existence of this agreement" was to remain secret.

The documents, uncovered by an American academic, Sasha Polakow-Suransky, in research for a book on the close relationship between the two countries, provide evidence that Israel has nuclear weapons despite its policy of "ambiguity" in neither confirming nor denying their existence.

The Israeli authorities tried to stop South Africa's post-apartheid government declassifying the documents at Polakow-Suransky's request and the revelations will be an embarrassment, particularly as this week's nuclear non-proliferation talks in New York focus on the Middle East.

They will also undermine Israel's attempts to suggest that, if it has nuclear weapons, it is a "responsible" power that would not misuse them, whereas countries such as Iran cannot be trusted. A spokeswoman for Peres today said the report was baseless and there were "never any negotiations" between the two countries. She did not comment on the authenticity of the documents.

South African documents show that the apartheid-era military wanted the missiles as a deterrent and for potential strikes against neighbouring states. The documents show both sides met on 31 March 1975. Polakow-Suransky writes in his book published in the US this week, The Unspoken Alliance: Israel's secret alliance with apartheid South Africa. At the talks Israeli officials "formally offered to sell South Africa some of the nuclear-capable Jericho missiles in its arsenal".

Among those attending the meeting was the South African military chief of staff, Lieutenant General RF Armstrong. He immediately drew up a memo in which he laid out the benefits of South Africa obtaining the Jericho missiles but only if they were fitted with nuclear weapons.

The memo, marked "top secret" and dated the same day as the meeting with the Israelis, has previously been revealed but its context was not fully understood because it was not known to be directly linked to the Israeli offer on the same day and that it was the basis for a direct request to Israel. In it, Armstrong writes: "In considering the merits of a weapon system such as the one being offered, certain assumptions have been made: a) That the missiles will be armed with nuclear warheads manufactured in RSA (Republic of South Africa) or acquired elsewhere."

Source: www.guardian.co.uk...


There you have it. As early as 1975 the Israilies had the bomb. So confident with it that they were using it as a tool in their politics. I am not familar with what was going on in S.A at that time in which they felt they need nuke weapons. Anyone?

I am wondering WHO they may have done a similar deal with. I wonder if the US is aware of this and other transactions?

Who knows, maybe he did keep peace in the region, and we just can't see it?

No wonder the muslins/terrorist want to get their hands on some. Fight fire with fire I guess.

Be sure to read the source article as there is more info in there.

This is a very very important thread - and directly affects the issues of the Middle East.
It has always been suspected that the French and/or Israeli were selling information to South Africa in their quest to become a nuclear power, however I nevre knew we actually may have bought nuclear bombs.

Here is a link to the Vela Incident, which indicates that South Africa detonated a nuclear bomb in 1979:

There have been reports that the Israeli's worked with South Africa to help perfect a neutron bomb (which explained the relative lack of nuclear fallout).
Dieter Gerhard, a communist spy and Commander of Simonstown naval base confirmed it was a joint Israeli/South African test code-named Operation Phoenix (also thought to be part of Israel's Samson Option).

South African Deputy Foreign Minister Aziz Pahad was quoted as confirming that the 22 September 1979 flash over the Indian Ocean was indeed from a South African nuclear test. The article said that Israel helped South Africa develop its bomb designs in return for 550 tons of raw uranium and other assistance.

Vela Incident

The final piece of the puzzle is now in place.

This is old news. It's an open secret. South Africa and Israel had a 6-8 year marriage with research on nukes and missiles. 200 tons of yellow cake disappeared from a ship in the Mediterranean back in the 60's. Too much material for research, it doesn't take a rocket scientologist to figure this out.

The fact Israel still refuses to sign any nuclear treaties just means they have the courage to tell all their enemies "no". (I wish the USA would grow a pair with some international relations instead of apologizing for every perceived wrong.)

South Africa went a different way with their government and dropped nuclear research in the very early 80's. It was a combination of costs and nations starting to boycott apartheid.

What I really think is your just trying to come up with away to justify the hatred many people have towards Israel.

Originally posted by hinky
This is old news. It's an open secret.

and

What I really think is your just trying to come up with away to justify the hatred many people have towards Israel.

Hinky - there are two points that you are missing. Firstly, it may be an open secret, but now it is a documented fact.
Secondly, justification or not, the fact is that Israel supported the apartheid government in their quest to become a nuclear power was wrong and it is hypocritical of them to treat Iran they way they themselves should have been treated.
As I mentioned in another thread, South Africa was a rogue state at the time. Do I have to mention that apartheid is not good?



[edit on 24/5/2010 by deltaalphanovember]

Originally posted by hinky
This is old news. ...

What I really think is your just trying to come up with away to justify the hatred many people have towards Israel.

No, you cannot call this old news. According to one of the signaturies, Shimon Peres, this never happened. While being an old rumour, this is now historical fact.

Justifying hate? We're not making this up. Isreal made this up. If i sell Nukes to Swaziland, you'll hate me. Why is Isreal any different?

Is there any proof that S.A. actually received any nukes or had them in their possession? I don't mean to make Israel sound like the bad guy, but perhaps they lied about having nuclear weapons and said they would trade nonexistent weapons just to sweeten a larger list of deals.
I wouldn't put it past a politician to lie.

reply to post by anon72


1 apartheid nation helping other apartheid nation for mutual help. S.A was scum at that time but thankfully it got cleaned whereas the scum is still flowing in form of Israel.

I just saw this on Fox News:

Israeli president denies newspaper report he offered South Africa nuclear warheads in 1975 : www.foxnews.com...

Whatelse is he going to say? Sure, I did?

Guess it really doesn't matter in the big picture but I am sure they don't want to be looked at too critically.

I agree that this is not something the OP dug up in some obscure blog just to trash Israel. That IS new. It is not old. And it is hitting the MSM all over the world. It is news already in all the msm channels here in Brazil.

This could complicate negotiations with Iran.

reply to post by henriquefd



I am a fan of Israel-just for the record. But, news is news and truth is truth.

I appreciate the additonal info others posted-in relationship to that era. Before my I could give a care about time.

Yes, this will give Iran a reason to not bargin or even come to the tables.

Finishing touches to the stadiums then? Future terrorist attack or false flag?


[edit on 24-5-2010 by jazz10]

There are US government reports from the 1970's that report Israel as a nuclear power. Use the FOIA to dig them up. There may be some archived reports from the 80's online with Israel having less than 200 warheads. That's the best guess at 150 to 200 warheads under 5MT in size with many under the 1MT level.

This is only "news" to people who are a) to young to actually remember anything before 1990 let alone the 70's b) so hate filled towards Israel, for any reason, nothing said will change your mind c) believe everything on the internet is real and there is no other legitimate forms of communication.

As for the document in question. So what... Of course Israel is going deny, deny, deny.... No one will be able to do any inspections of Israel's facilities.

As for Israel having nukes and stopping everyone in the region. That's for the best. Can you honestly say, "Iran would have sat on their nuclear warheads for 30 years".

You know Iran had a war with Iraq, right. Do you even know what I'm talking about? They had a big war by their standards. Several hundred thousand killed. Do you think for one moment the insane leadership of Iran would not use their nuclear weapons if they had them. They want to use them now in a time of peace, once they have them.

Let's look at Israel. That small pesky thorn in the side causing all things wrong in the middle East. They had a war also. The Yom Kipper War. Probably ought to look this one up. Israel had nuclear weapons at their disposal even when they were losing. They did not use them but instead used conventional forces.

We have some differences in opinions as to who's the good guy and who's the bad guy. No one is innocent, but some are less guilty than others. I'll hang with the less guilty.

reply to post by hinky


Maybe the US did know-most likely. But, to have the info getting out via the press is something different. Now they will be force to deny, deny and deny to the point they don't believe they do anymore.

But, the crack has begun. If it is true, more info will come out about this.

I find it very interesting that Israel tried to stop South Africa from declassifying documents from a meeting that never happened.

reply to post by hinky


No, what this does is give absolute proof of what we already knew. The thread is not justifying hatred of Israel. It is showing that Israel was willing to sell nuclear weapons to a state that may very well have used them. This does not concern you?

reply to post by deltaalphanovember


To be fair, the US also supported the apartheid regime. Google Gerald Bull.

reply to post by InvisibleAlbatross


Good one on Gerald Ball- I was thinking how did I know that name. Googled it and bamb-instant flashback.

I had forgotten about him-and the big gun.

Was he offically authorized by the US gov't?

Lol this is so amusing. Young folks thinking this is news

Like you said in your first post, Israel did have the bomb in the 70's. And? Was it used against another nation? Was it ALMOST used against another nation?
Was it sold to anyone?

The best part is this - "I wonder if the US is aware of this and other transactions?". Hah. You get an F in global politics.

Like hinky said, nothing that will be said or done will prevent you from hating Israel so it's better to stand aside and let this hatred-wagon continue.

Originally posted by SparKzzz

Like hinky said, nothing that will be said or done will prevent you from hating Israel so it's better to stand aside and let this hatred-wagon continue.

Great noise, signifying nothing.

This is hardly a hatred wagon? This is documenting history. Previously classified history. Involving the sale of WMD to states which were then under UN sanctions.

The person responsible for offering these nuclear weapons to rogue states is still in power. Who else was this offer made to?

Originally posted by harryhaller
Involving the sale of WMD...

Hm? Have I missed something?

Also are you talking about Shimon Peres still being in power? Heh.. This is just too entertaining.