Arizona Law SB 1070 and HB 2162 Examined. Cite Your Reasons For Dissent.

The reason why no one can come up with a reason why the bill itself is unconstitutional or racist is because, in black and white, there is absolutely nothing wrong with it. AZ is just taking over responsibilites that the Feds slacked off on.
We, however do not live in a black and white world, no matter how much we would like to believe problems are that simple to solve. This law won't stop corporations from luring illegals with promises of jobs, and being human beings who care just as deeply for providing for their families as you or I, they will continue to take that risk. Every single American should have greater allegiance to the well-being of their families than man-made laws. This, as a solution to illegal immigration, is not getting to the root of the problem. Couple this law with stricter regulations and oversight on how corporations operate in foreign countries, and they would definately be on to something. Providing positive incentives for them to stay in their home country as well as negative consequences for coming here illegally would make way more sense. This is a two-part problem, and hopefully those who support this bill (which, in black and white, I certainly do) will also, in the future, support legislation to improve economic stability in Mexico. This is not, as many say, just THEIR problem, because American business practices have a huge part to play in this.
As one more quick side note, there are plenty of well-meaning laws that have extremely negative side effects. This is where my opposition comes in, and I ADMIT FREELY AND OPENLY that it is completely hypothetical, but the world is a messed up place. There are a myriad of things that could go wrong, and hopefully Arizonans will keep a close watch on how this law is enforced and that illegals are still treated as human beings. For-profit detention centers and quota-based law enforcement will make the capacity for corruption extremely high. This is, however, coming from someone who has been profiled before (dreadlocks meant my car got searched for marijuana without my consent), so I may be a bit jaded lol.

Here is a quick summary of the bill

www.fairus.org...

And another more in-depth summary

www.ncsl.org...

I personally do not support illegal immigration but I also do not agree with Arizona's approach to it. If they *really* wanted to stop illegal immigration they would go after the businesses that actually hire these individuals. Funny how the businesses and corporate elite tend to avoid any sort of responsibility and instead are masters at crafting the media to direct it towards the poor souls that literally risk their lives for mediocre jobs in order to save their families and provide for them some chance of a better life.

Entrapment: In criminal law, entrapment is when a law enforcement agent induces a person to commit an offense which the person would otherwise have been unlikely to commit. In many jurisdictions, entrapment is a possible defense against criminal liability.

I personally believe that most illegal immigrants are victims of entrapment. Where our country, and its businesses purposefully enticed these individuals to go above and behind what they would normally have done, and pushed them to cross deserts, risk their lives to come to this country in order to secure a job to take care of their families. We have condoned and pandered to businesses and allowed them to traffic in humans in order to produce a slave work force.

I suppose it is easier to harass those that do not have the means to defend themselves instead of the rich elite who would be able to crush such moves against them.

[edit on 21-5-2010 by DJM8507]

reply to post by mooseinhisglory


I agree with your points. The capacity for corruption though is high in almost any circumstance where "law" and "enforcement" join together.

I only started this thread for those who state CONSTANTLY that this Bill, Arizona, and the law is "racist" and "takes away rights" and "racially profiles".

That's all my intent was.

reply to post by DJM8507



There are literally MILLIONS of businesses to go after. What size task force could take on that scope and funding? You would have to create something 5 times the size of DHS, or have it under the umbrella of a similar entity.

It would take years to go through rolls of the possible employers...a logistical nightmare.

I agree that the EMPLOYERS is where the fight is at though.

I would suggest a "snitch" program. Citizens get paid to RAT out the rats that employ Illegals. Do I dislike a snitch society? Yes But not when it comes to invaders. Either that or more severe penalties on the employer side, and the Immigrant side.

The problem has become so big that other than strict closing of the borders all around, or declaring an all our WAR on Illegal Immigration, we're running out of options.


[edit on 21-5-2010 by Prove_It_NOW]

reply to post by Prove_It_NOW

Totally understood! I guess that was my long-winded way of saying "I agree with you, however..."
Awesome you put this thread up. Its a very good point to bring up.

Originally posted by DJM8507

Here is a quick summary of the bill

Why read a summary of a Bill when you can read the direct Bill, which is only around 15 pages long?

Entrapment: In criminal law, entrapment is when a law enforcement agent induces a person to commit an offense which the person would otherwise have been unlikely to commit. In many jurisdictions, entrapment is a possible defense against criminal liability.

I personally believe that most illegal immigrants are victims of entrapment. Where our country, and its businesses purposefully enticed these individuals to go above and behind what they would normally have done

I tend to imagine a bank robber going to a vault that the security guard left open for him. It's his first time and "out of what he would usually do". He crawled 100 miles to get to the bank.

Was he entrapped?

When you see an opportunity you KNOW to be Illegal, and go for it, it's not entrapment....and you're not a 'poor soul'. You are a criminal.



[edit on 21-5-2010 by Prove_It_NOW]

So far so god, I've been reading up to here: 23-212. I've got a meeting to go to, so I will continue reading it tomorrow.

A legal citizen should be happy to answer two or three requests regaurding somthing that seems so problematic. If they can clear their names and become familiar with a few officers they would likely never be suspect. And possibly feel glad to help.
Wich would probably be the case for most people in the first place, never even become suspect.

The profiling already happens, this bill isnt going to add to that imo. Like other people said I would imagine you would get a feel for who to look for.

People call political hype, but its people against this that are doing it. I guess you didnt like some of us when we were opposed to healthcare reform.. Just let them have their way, we had to.

I ran across an interesting piece...

Just who do these people think they are? We stole this country fair and square. Our forefathers came over boat by boat and ship by ship to this land. They slaughtered scores of native Americans by introducing them to the business end of the firearms that they brought with them. They desecrated those heathen savages in every way possible, many times raping their women and killing their children until there was nothing left of them and leaving them nothing. Not even their pride. We stole this land fair and square right?

Our fore fathers brought slaves over from Africa. Ship by ship and boat by boat, cleared farm land, planted food and cotton with the aforementioned slave labor. They built this country on that stolen land and made it in to what it is today and that is something we can all be proud of right?

I am a proud American but sometimes, I really don’t feel so proud.

You can tell that I have mixed feelings about this. As a young man I thought I had seen poverty in America. I thought I knew what poverty was. I’d seen homeless people before. Not a lot, but I’d seen them. I didn’t know #.

I went to Puerta Vallarta in about 1998 on a vacation. While I was there, I left the resort to go into town and check out some of the local shops and what not. I strayed a little farther past the outskirts of town than most Americans travel and that is where I saw true poverty. I saw true fear, hunger and despair in the eyes of innocent children. I saw an old woman in her 70s holding a baby in one hand and a tin cup begging for coins in the other while her daughter and grand daughter were trying to hawk up some business in the whorehouse a few doors down the street. These people’s best days don’t even come close to our worst. I sympathize and empathize with them. I’ve seen how they live and I can understand their desperation. I understand why they are willing to risk their lives to cross our border to make a few dollars an hour picking beans and chilies on our farms. I hold no animosity toward these people at all. They are just people, who are a lot worse off than we are, trying to survive.

Having said all that, do I feel that they deserve a free ticket to the US? I don’t know. I don’t know that I even deserve to be here. I don’t know that you deserve to be here either. If I steal your car like our great great grandparents stole this land, do I deserve to keep it just because I have a bigger gun? Is posession really nine tenths of the law?

These are tuff economic times, not only in this country, but world wide. Does anyone really think that a laid off GM worker is going to pick lima beans for three or four dollars an hour? Who’s jobs are they really taking or are they actually doing work that Americans are to fat and spoiled to do?

SOURCE: www.ronmeinsler.com...

[edit on 21-5-2010 by DJM8507]

I continue to be astounded at the lack of factual arguments in this thread...Seems taboo to exam, and discuss the law in question. Better to stick to emotion filled arguments and the infinite potential "what if's" that always abound in our world.

If we are discussing all the potential ABUSES of the law by leo's then by the logic used so far we should abandon all attempts at law enforcement for ANY crime as they "may" lead to some abuse somewhere in the unseen future.

Seems to me that if officers abuse this law(as the law directly forbids profiling) there are ways to see the officer(s) in question punished.

All of the above is really beside the point though, as we have yet to truly see a discussion of the law in question, it's wording, or legal definitions. A law that does nothing but RE-ENFORCE federal statutes already on the books.

It sounds like this particular statute within the law may be a form of class discimination. We all know that only hookers, day laborers and hitch hikers (Read poor people) stand on the side of the road waiting to be picked up for hire.

13-2928. Unlawful stopping to hire and pick up passengers for
work; unlawful application, solicitation or employment; classification; definitions.

A LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICIAL OR AGENCY OF THIS STATE OR A COUNTY, CITY, TOWN OR OTHER POLITICAL SUBDIVISION OF THIS STATE MAY NOT CONSIDER RACE, COLOR OR NATIONAL ORIGIN IN THE ENFORCEMENT OF THIS SECTION ...

We are gonna need to see an equal number of arrests of hookers and hitchhikers being made in order to rule out that discrimination against day laborers is taking place.

While they are at it they might as well pick up vagrants.

[edit on 21-5-2010 by Freedom or Death]

Originally posted by mooseinhisglory
The reason why no one can come up with a reason why the bill itself is unconstitutional or racist is because, in black and white, there is absolutely nothing wrong with it.

Hi, my name is JOE SHMOE.

I was born at home; in a mobile home in western Oklahoma... momma didn't get a midwife; daddy caught me on the way out.

I worked on daddy's farm until I was 18... never did get a driver's license because I have no urge to drive; don't see so well.

I'm 30 now for the past 12 years I've been a travelling WWOOFER. Having worked now in 8 US states, I have not accepted cash for my labor; only room and board at the farms where I've laboured and slept.

I have no ID and I have no plans on getting any. I like my lifestyle, I was born in the USA, I love my freedom and my privacy.

Yesterday I was sitting passenger in a vehicle on the way to the next farm where there was work... and the driver was pulled over for speeding on an AZ interstate.

Papiere... Papiere, Bitte.

A PERSON IS PRESUMED TO NOT BE AN ALIEN WHO IS UNLAWFULLY PRESENT IN THE UNITED STATES IF THE PERSON PROVIDES TO THE LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICER OR AGENCY ANY OF THE FOLLOWING:

-----------------------------------

I remember something else a person was supposed to be PRESUMED to be...

ei incumbit probatio qui dicit, non qui negat

devil's advocate,

Sri Oracle

[edit on 21-5-2010 by Sri Oracle]

13-2928. Unlawful stopping to hire and pick up passengers for
work; unlawful application, solicitation or employment; classification; definitions.

I believe I understand this... basically it's illegal to seek work, or transportation from the side of the road, for anyone. Fairly straightforward there.

A LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICIAL OR AGENCY OF THIS STATE OR A COUNTY, CITY, TOWN OR OTHER POLITICAL SUBDIVISION OF THIS STATE MAY NOT CONSIDER RACE, COLOR OR NATIONAL ORIGIN IN THE ENFORCEMENT OF THIS SECTION ...

We are gonna need to see an equal number of arrests of hookers and hitchhikers being made in order to rule out that discrimination against day laborers is taking place.

While they are at it they might as well pick up vagrants.

I see nothing about enforcing 13-2928 that violates the restrictions mentioned above. Being a day laborer is not an ethnicity, national origin, or color... it's a trade.

Am I mistaken here or are you saying that trade/career is a protected political demographic?

Originally posted by Sri Oracle

Papiere... Papiere, Bitte.

I can see it.

Checkpoints everywhere all the time.

First they checked the brown people.

Then they checked the blacks.

Then they checked for me.

Papers, Papers please.

We are in fact seeing the beginning of the new nazi state.

[edit on 21-5-2010 by Freedom or Death]

Originally posted by Freedom or Death

I can see it.

Checkpoints everywhere all the time.

First they checked the brown people.

Then they checked the blacks.

Then they checked for me.

Papers, Papers please.

We are in fact seeing the beginning of the new nazi state.

[edit on 21-5-2010 by Freedom or Death]

So you are going to make no attempt WHATSOEVER at debating the factual points of the law in question, or will you?

I continue to hope for a debate on the merits of the law itself, rather than the ethics of individual LEO's in AZ. Instead we continue to see more use of dark imagery, emotion filled scenarios of what "could happen", and the concept that supporters are racist...all in the hopes of somehow "scaring" individuals into changing their positions

This is amazing to me that so many pages in this thread and we have yet to see and serious fact based arguments....ATS' standards are not what they once seemed.

reply to post by Freedom or Death


hey i am white and if i get pulled over for what ever reason
and i got no proof what so ever i am citizen..take me to jail till i can prove i am...
i am fair game with that..
CAUSE I HAVE PROOF I AM!! end of that next subject please..

Originally posted by Shark_Feeder

So you are going to make no attempt WHATSOEVER at debating the factual points of the law in question, or will you?

I continue to hope for a debate on the merits of the law itself, rather than the ethics of individual LEO's in AZ. Instead we continue to see more use of dark imagery, emotion filled scenarios of what "could happen", and the concept that supporters are racist...all in the hopes of somehow "scaring" individuals into changing their positions

This is amazing to me that so many pages in this thread and we have yet to see and serious fact based arguments....ATS' standards are not what they once seemed.

It's sad isn't it?

reply to post by Prove_It_NOW


It honestly brings me to the point of anger sometimes... ahh the unrealized blessings of the keyboard.

I can only hope and pray that maybe somehow real conversation will pick up soon.

Originally posted by TheAmused
reply to post by Freedom or Death

 

hey i am white and if i get pulled over for what ever reason
and i got no proof what so ever i am citizen..take me to jail till i can prove i am...

Remember Arizona is getting money from the Fed.

They may actually be using Arizona as a cover to get people to accept a universal Federal Id.

[edit on 21-5-2010 by Freedom or Death]

reply to post by Shark_Feeder


Can you, or Prove_it_NOW, please describe to me what reasonable doubt would be in the case of immigration without using language or ethnicity as criteria?