Americans Are No Better Than Mexicans

Oh look, another thread that was started with a brilliant statement that got completely misread by a handful of flying gnats so they can continue saying the same thing they've been saying for close to a month now.

Business as usual on ATS it seems.

Oh look, another clown who thinks only he knows how to read, and would crap on the floor and call it art, and expect everyone to admire it for months on end.

Originally posted by Jean Paul Zodeaux
Oh look, another clown who thinks only he knows how to read

You know, considering my experience on this site I'm starting to actually believe this. Either that, or I'm suffering from some severe hallucinogenic mental state whenever I come on this site, read things, post things, and people reply seemingly having completely ignored the words from the sources and posts they are replying to.

Coincidentally it happens when what they ignore happens to go against their argument or world view.


This thread is self-evident of this observation of mine. The thread has nothing to do with immigration of any sort. It deals with American exceptionalism and nationalism. It doesn't talk about illegals or legal immigrants (outside of one small portion in which even in this instance, the meaning is ambiguous at best). It has to do with people, especially quite a few on this site, who believe America is God's gilded man-throne and we Americans his floating little turds of holiness. It has to do with people, even on this site, who haven't just attacked illegal immigrants, or legal immigrants, but Mexicans in general.

And yet still in this thread you have quite a few folks who want to continue to illegal immigration discussion, attacking the OP on unfounded or completely idiotic grounds, dismissing what the OP has said...well basically it has turned into what every thread in this section has turned to since the Arizona bill was passed; a few who blindly support the illegals, A LOT who blindly hate the illegals, and people throwing political ideological identifiers at each other like they are insults.

And no Jean, you are not and have not been one of these people I've been talking about and I can understand why you are attacking me base on my comments but I can't ignore what is going on. It's absolutely pathetic what has been going on around here. This thread is just an example of it.

reply to post by SpectreDC


I appreciate your acknowledgment that I am not one of those who are guilty of what you speak of, and am glad you took the time to speak of it thoughtfully and not just rely on glibness and brevity to expect everyone to see your point. I know full well that you are capable of crafting real art, and need not crap on the floor in order to make a point.

You know Specter when the Arizona Bill first came out I was appalled at it, understood how such a Bill could backfire on everyone, and did my best to keep an unbiased view of it, and indeed, in a few Arizona threads took the time to post several rights enumerated by the Arizona constitution that made clear that all people had rights regardless of citizenship, and this has been a long time fight for me. However, more recently I have seen the smugness of a President who has failed in job as an Executive to do what is necessary to help Arizona deal with their problems and then scold that state for attempting to deal with it on their own, and by simply mirroring federal immigration law. I have even more recently seen the President of Mexico arrogantly come to this nation and denounce Arizona, and with in a day demand this nation ignore the 2nd Amendment and impose laws imprudent in the name of blame for his own nations ills.

It was naive of the O.P., and certainly giving the timing, to think simply omitting the issue of immigration, and then stubbornly insisting it is irrelevant, when the title seeks to pit one nation of people against another, and by God, my friend, I certainly read that O.P. and the stupidity in its insistence that people today have no right to claim ownership over their own efforts and wealth, only to back pedal and claim he meant something else, is self evident.

I am no fan of nationalism, or jingoism or any deification of nation states, but if this thread were actually an attack on the nationalism that you speak of, bringing Mexicans into the picture was wholly unnecessary. It has been my efforts in this site, since I've joined to fight for freedom, not just for citizens of the U.S., but for all people. I loathe the term "illegal" immigrants, even though I willingly acknowledge that the U.S. has a right to protect its borders and control the flow of immigration, but failing that control, no government has the right to declare any person "illegal" by virtue of their residence and lack of documentation. Once a person crosses the border to the U.S., regardless of how they got here, they are protected by the very same rights you and I are.

Would that we could see this sort of protection of rights across the world, but in truth, we can't even find that protection from a government who has been mandated to do so, and whose only purpose of existence is in the protection of rights for all people. I also have deep concerns about the one world globalists who are not in anyway advocating self government but instead advocating a one world government. Given this vehement advocacy of a Leviathan as government, any declarations attacking nationalism become suspect. I am not advocating nationalism, but am certainly not interested in a borderless world where some gargantuan government dictates what can and can't be done.

For all the so called "sophistication" the people in this modern world have managed to achieve, the notion of self government remains a radical idea. When that idea becomes the accepted norm, instead of a vilified ideal, then I will be more willing to read attacks on nationalism. There is much to admire about the Mexican culture, and very little to admire about the Mexican government. Conversely, there is much to admire about the diversity of culture in the U.S., but just the same very little to admire about that government.

I remain convinced that the O.P. thoughtlessly entered into this debate, willingly attempting to fan the flames of anger, and stupidly believing this was intended to encourage enlightened debate, and then even more foolishly feigning bafflement when that enlightened debate did not rise up, or come down, depending upon viewpoint, to his standard.

I have read enough of your posts to know you fight for freedom as well, and for that I count you as an ally, but I also, for the same reason hold high expectations of you, whether that be fair or not only you can decide. Your follow up post was worthy of the expectations I hold of you, and I thank you for taking that time.

reply to post by SpectreDC


I can't thank you enough for reading me correctly. I am sure I deserve some criticism for the way in which I chose to say what I said. Still, I would like to think the point is not so difficult to grasp.

You can't change other people and people can't change you. You seem to have very twisted guilt trip pity for invaders. People are people anywhere. A range of karmic states are covered everywhere.

Everyone in their homeland has the right to define who else can come and live there. Many of the countries of the world have high standards. The tolerance of invaders is not a feeling or political ideology is is treason and betrayal of humanity. Did you know that Washingon DC, the USA was deeded to the IMF in 1944? It you know a large part of every dollar collected in tax or bonds goes to the IMF and from there to the Queen of England, the Vatican and the banking elite. These issues are not natural they are arranged. "Illegals" are an issue of sovereignty and a tool of exploitation by the elite. When there are no more income taxes, property taxes, mortgage payments, when you have all of your money to spend as you see fit and prosperity reigns supreme in this land then the average Mexican stands a better chance of making a good living in Mexico. When the example of strong Republics is established for the world, do you think Mexicans will be fare behind in demanding the same for themselves in Mexico? Not if they can continually be suckered into thinking their best option it to go somewhere else. Your support for the poor Mexican invader is support for their exploitation and victimization. You're their enemy, not their friend. Your the racist and the cold blooded. Oh, and by the way, it's still true that in the barrios of the uSA, a lot of Mexican boys either sell drugs or their sisters for money. That's because of people rationalizing their on their side when they are simply their enemy.

reply to post by JohnnyElohim


OK, now that you posted that introduction of opinions and views, can you please show your point? for starting this thread.

Perhaps a solution . . .

Originally posted by marg6043
reply to post by JohnnyElohim

 

OK, now that you posted that introduction of opinions and views, can you please show your point? for starting this thread.

Perhaps a solution . . .

Marg,

My point is that we can hardly engage in looking for a real solution while we simultaneously engage in a collective forgetting of how events created such a huge disparity in equity and opportunity. We will not find a real solution while our approach to the issue is framed with anger and a sense of entitlement. Let me take a moment to say that I am not suggesting that you personally engage in these things. I simply think it is clear enough that many do, even here in these forums. I do not have a policy solution up my sleeve but I do have guiding philosophies. I think that any approach to this issue should instead be framed by tolerance and compassion. Any corrections undertaken should acknowledge and take into account the collective history of the involved countries instead of ignoring the parts that make it complicated and uncomfortable. If you've read my outline of what happened between Mexico and America, then I would put to you that the solution is not another "Operation Wetback" or "Mexican Repatriation".

reply to post by JohnnyElohim


I know what exactly is going on with the immigration issue, I have research is not only politically motivate but corporate motivated, with disregard of the people involved meaning illegals and American citizens, then money is been funneled by big corporations to keep the fight of legal citizens against illegals going.

Originally posted by marg6043
reply to post by JohnnyElohim

 

I know what exactly is going on with the immigration issue, I have research is not only politically motivate but corporate motivated, with disregard of the people involved meaning illegals and American citizens, then money is been funneled by big corporations to keep the fight of legal citizens against illegals going.

I would be interested in hearing your thoughts on the matter. Have you started a thread based on your research?

Originally posted by Jean Paul Zodeaux
reply to post by JohnnyElohim

 

Perhaps that would have been a better tact and tenor to use then. If you want the hornets nest to calm down and just get along with the rest of the environment taking a stick to the nest and whacking it several times just doesn't make a lot of sense. Clearly people are angry right now, and much of this anger is due to a federal government that has failed miserably at doing a job they have been mandated by Constitution to do, and to make matters worse this same federal government that can't do the job they were created to do, continues to invent new jobs they want to do which involve taxing more and telling people what they have to do and who they have to buy from, this is going to foment anger. You coming along and refusing to acknowledge this source of anger, and simply scream at the angry for being angry is no better than kicking a dog for barking.

I promised earlier that I would either respond to the above points or explain my reason for not doing so.

The anger that I am speaking ill of is not directed at the federal government of the United States. It is directed squarely at Mexicans and illegal Mexican immigrants. I truly do not think there is any virtue or value in being angry at the vast majority of illegal Mexican immigrants, legal Mexican immigrants, or Mexicans in general. Having said that, there is some anger towards other illegal immigrants, some towards the federal government, but I am not speaking to those issues. Further, it is not necessary for me to speak to those issues in order to criticize the deleterious nationalism I am concerned with. It seems to me that you want to make the discussion about these issues because I would be an easy target indeed if I were speaking ill of people critical of the policies of their government. The fact of the matter is some of those people also engage in the behavior to which I refer and some of them don't. I do not have to and indeed do not want to criticize people. I set out to criticize certain popular ideas which are ill-founded.

Having fulfilled my commitment, then, I must say that I'll not continue our prior tit - for - tat. You closed your dialog with a laundry list of logical fallacies entirely devoid of context. If you wish to call me out for engaging in a logical fallacy, you'll need to do so in the context of a particular remark and you'll need to show how said logical fallacy invalidates the remark or the argument. Simply casting such aspersions is a waste of time and to reply to them would only worsen the waste; the waste of precious moments belonging to those who have continued to read our discourse. I have instead chosen to focus on substantive fact because you have rightfully indicated such was lacking from my dialog thus far. If you wish to criticize my interpretation of said facts, please be my guest.

Originally posted by ReelView
The tolerance of invaders is not a feeling or political ideology is is treason and betrayal of humanity. Did you know that Washingon DC, the USA was deeded to the IMF in 1944? It you know a large part of every dollar collected in tax or bonds goes to the IMF and from there to the Queen of England, the Vatican and the banking elite. These issues are not natural they are arranged. "Illegals" are an issue of sovereignty and a tool of exploitation by the elite. When there are no more income taxes, property taxes, mortgage payments, when you have all of your money to spend as you see fit and prosperity reigns supreme in this land then the average Mexican stands a better chance of making a good living in Mexico. When the example of strong Republics is established for the world, do you think Mexicans will be fare behind in demanding the same for themselves in Mexico? Not if they can continually be suckered into thinking their best option it to go somewhere else. Your support for the poor Mexican invader is support for their exploitation and victimization. You're their enemy, not their friend. Your the racist and the cold blooded. Oh, and by the way, it's still true that in the barrios of the uSA, a lot of Mexican boys either sell drugs or their sisters for money. That's because of people rationalizing their on their side when they are simply their enemy.

It's "treason" to tolerate "invaders". Alright then, let me propose the following scenario:

You inherited a house from your parents who inherited it from your grandparents. You have humble means but because you own this house entirely, you and your family are able to get by. A real estate developer has begun buying houses in your neighborhood, one after the other. Eventually, they approach you. They offer you a value for your house, but that value hardly speaks to it's long-term importance to your livelihood, so you ignore their offer. They promptly begin shooting your pets and family members in the back yard and make it very clear that they intend to enter your home and flush you out. At first you believe that you can hold your ground, but you eventually realize that you are outnumbered and outgunned, so you choose to make a deal. They tell you that they will stop killing your family and friends if you accept half of their prior offer for your house. It is clear that continuing the conflict is not an option for you, so you accept the offer. Years later you find that your job and it's upward mobility combined with your now quite limited means are not enough to support your family, and your situation steadily worsens. You resort to squatting in the neighborhood in which you once lived because it is close to your loved ones and close to what few means you do have. But that property is now owned by the people who "rightfully" bought it from you, and they don't want you there unless they need their lawn mowed cheaply. When they don't have yard work for you, you are asked to find some other place for your family to sleep. Some place where you cannot find work, where it is difficult to find potable water.

How would that sit with you? How would it sit with your children?

a reply to: JohnnyElohim

If thats true, then why do they come here?

Man that OP was a tough read.

America's wealth starts in england in a civil war of barons vs a king 100's of years before in the document named the magna carta. This started a trend, an idea. Throughout the minds of men in europe the idea of private rights for the common man came into being. The enlightenment came into being and the ideas of what america should be were crystalized into being by the man of John Locke. The founders wanted the colonies united and took the easy route leaving the slavery issue to be dealt with 80 years later.

Meanwhile mexico's and latin americans origins are different. Spain and Portugal people were not as influenced by the enlightenment. They brought different ideas across the pond. ideas that could have given rise to american style wealth and civil structure over time. But instead of fighting for american style freedom they rather fight for ideals like socialism and failed
Chile has shown that it is possible for a latin american country to become developed in a short period of time.

As for genocide, it never is excusable. Nearly no people in the world can lay claim to being the originals on the land. AS stated before mass aztec sacrifice. Probably one of the most messed up things to ever happen in history.
Every single person has multiple ancestors who have killed. get over it.

originally posted by: JohnnyElohim
In the immigration debate I see a lot of people talking about how terrible Mexico is, how the Mexicans should "fix the mess they made" instead of bringing their "murder and corruption" to the United States.

The fortune of the United States can be traced to it's origins as a land occupied by nearly unarmed natives who were deceived, exploited, and attacked with biological warfare and overwhelming military superiority with the simple goal of taking what they had.

I think that was the Europeans that did all that, Americans born here in this country fought them for independence. Also we are talking about what is happening today not 100s or 1000s of years ago. When someone says Mexico needs to fix their mess they mean a 2016 mess not a 1616 mess...lol

originally posted by: openminded2011
a reply to: JohnnyElohim

If thats true, then why do they come here?

In Internet years, this is so ancient. It's odd to see replies in this thread so many years later. The point of the OP is that the US is the richest and most powerful nation by most measures not because its people are inherently superior and have some god-given right to the privileges they enjoy, but because of an amalgam of factors that we tend to ignore in modern political discourse. The US is a great place to be and land is largely contiguous between hither and yon. If you were in their shoes, of course it'd be a tempting option.

originally posted by: jellyrev
Man that OP was a tough read.

America's wealth starts in england in a civil war of barons vs a king 100's of years before in the document named the magna carta. This started a trend, an idea. Throughout the minds of men in europe the idea of private rights for the common man came into being. The enlightenment came into being and the ideas of what america should be were crystalized into being by the man of John Locke. The founders wanted the colonies united and took the easy route leaving the slavery issue to be dealt with 80 years later.

Meanwhile mexico's and latin americans origins are different. Spain and Portugal people were not as influenced by the enlightenment. They brought different ideas across the pond. ideas that could have given rise to american style wealth and civil structure over time. But instead of fighting for american style freedom they rather fight for ideals like socialism and failed
Chile has shown that it is possible for a latin american country to become developed in a short period of time.

As for genocide, it never is excusable. Nearly no people in the world can lay claim to being the originals on the land. AS stated before mass aztec sacrifice. Probably one of the most messed up things to ever happen in history.
Every single person has multiple ancestors who have killed. get over it.

My OP here was deliberately inflammatory, an impassioned response to the hateful dialogues of the day in which it was posted. The reasons things are as they are tend to be complicated. I think you have some good points here, though when you say of Mexicans that "they rather fight for ideals like socialism and failed" [sic], I'm not sure to what exactly you refer nor am I immediately aware of sources that support it.

a reply to: JohnnyElohim

My husband is part Native American and he's telling you more or less to ... well, I can't repeat it.

To the victor go the spoils, he says, and he would much rather be enjoying the fruits of modern American life (small things like modern medical advances and technology) then squatting in a buffalo hide shelter making nice with nature on a raw level like his ancestors did. It may be "romantic," but it is also cold, wet and dirty with a short lifespan.

Oh, and although my response was to ask if I should get DNA tested and find out what proportion of my genetic makeup was from what place and have myself diced into as many parts, have each put in a box and sent back to its country of origin ... He says not to bother ... to the victor do go the spoils.

originally posted by: Xtrozero

originally posted by: JohnnyElohim
In the immigration debate I see a lot of people talking about how terrible Mexico is, how the Mexicans should "fix the mess they made" instead of bringing their "murder and corruption" to the United States.

The fortune of the United States can be traced to it's origins as a land occupied by nearly unarmed natives who were deceived, exploited, and attacked with biological warfare and overwhelming military superiority with the simple goal of taking what they had.

I think that was the Europeans that did all that, Americans born here in this country fought them for independence. Also we are talking about what is happening today not 100s or 1000s of years ago. When someone says Mexico needs to fix their mess they mean a 2016 mess not a 1616 mess...lol

For a period of time Americans were imported Europeans, and Americans born on this soil also undertook efforts we'd all look on now as shameful to secure their fortunes. My point is that these parts of history matter, and selectively ignoring them in service of a convenient modern interpretation of history can lead nowhere good.

The fate of Mexico was adversely affected by US expansionism. I'm not saying it makes sense to give back Texas, California, and Arizona. I am saying that it would make sense to reflect kindly on the people who were disenfranchised, to be humble about the largess that we enjoy, and to be gracious towards the younger generation, world-wide.

I didn't bother reading very far into the garbage and self righteous original post. No person is better or more valuable then another person. I think our country is better though, which is why people want to come here and what makes a country is it's ideas, its borders and it's laws. I welcome any immigrant who comes here legally and doesn't ignore those things. I don't embrace illegals and that's what they are. We have a process that a lot of people follow and I'm supposed to embrace those that cut the line and take advantage of a system broke for political reasons? I'll pass