Gas Leak in Gulf 3000 Times Worse Than Oil Leak

Originally posted by webpirate
reply to post by DogsDogsDogs

 

I agree there. I started this thread last week here, and it was largely ignored.

I also posted in this thread a page or 2 back THIS which is part of the pdf proposal BP had for this drilling exploration.

BP states that the company could handle a spill involving as much as 12.6 million gallons of oil per day, a number 60 times higher than its current estimate of the ongoing Gulf disaster.
Also though, there is NO worst case blowout scenario drawn up at all.
Nor was there any blowout control for that matter on this project.

Funny you mention this -- BP's "Plan" for dealing with an oil spill in the Gulf assures everyone that they know how to rescue "Sea Otters, Walrus and Seals" -- which just shows you it was a cut and paste from some OTHER "sure fire plan" because the Gulf does not have Walrus and Seals -- but hey, I don't pretend to be an expert.

That this is getting an "oh my gosh" right now -- just shows that the status quo is NO GOVERNMENT, while corporations spend big bucks to complain about Government. We only have a military that knocks down doors in Iraq so that BP and other Oil barons can get the oil concessions that they had before Saddam kicked them out. We only have an EPA that can tell us "nothing to fear" when the WTC collapses with a billion tons of asbestos in the air. We only have an FDA that can show lots of concern over the 1 person in a decade who dies from a non-pharmaceutical natural product at the health food store.

We have all sorts of barriers to entry for Finance -- but that doesn't stop a Quadrillion dollars going POOF in an unregulated market and bankrupting the planet. But hey, we have a lot of outrage for that $60 Billion of Mortgage bankruptcies that poor people had when banks charged them more for interest.

So pretend to be surprised as we have a lot more shock and awe from what regulators "allowed" BP to get away with. Anyone still think Cheney has a right to keep his Energy Task Force meeting a secret?

I'm a Gold Member because random people here have starred and flagged me over the years, like any other Bronze etc member. And I post across a wide range of issues, and generally swim against the currents on many of these emotional driven issues and that doesn't win you a popularity contest.

Good for you, I'd never have noticed the "GOLDMEMBER" on your ID.
OK, last comment on this; you are bragging about all the popularity your comments have and then explaining about how you "swim against the tide" on these emotional issues. Then of course, your complaining about our "undocumented nonsense" and you have no support for your idea that Oil dissipates underwater or that methane doesn't have an impact. I of course, am JUST saying it, but that's with a million links by others who have done a great job discussing the topic -- why repeat well documented FACTS unless someone offers a rebuttal? Oil releases KILL, and bigger ones kill MORE ocean life. This one is BIGGER and DEEPER than any other in the Gulf, which already has a problem with low circulation (except for the Loop current), and couple that with the amount of pollution coming out of the Mississippi -- was on the brink to begin with.

Then, downstream of that, is perhaps the biggest, most important, swamp on the entire planet; The Everglades. The Yellow River, the Nile, the Amazon and the Mississippi -- those are going to be in the top ten list of important rivers, and the Everglades is at the top of swamps.

I'd also say that NOT having emotion when you are talking about an Ocean dying -- well, there's a name for that. Keeping a cool head and being rational -- that's great. But a lack of emotion is not.

I'm going to go home tonight and "bronze my Johnson" so that I can feel a bit better about myself.

Originally posted by Granite
The video taken by the small private airplane showed a lot of surface pools of orange/red substance near the black pools. It is either decaying sealife or sulfur or methane, or some combination.
I did find an answer to my own curiosity of what research exists on before the spill sea life conditions so BP and others can be held accountable. Very extensive research has been going on since 2000 called the Census of Marine Life past, present and future. They have a temporary website to view until the official public release in Oct '10.
They really are fortunate to be in the home stretch of their project.
Here is my related thread:

Census of Marine Life

[edit on 18-5-2010 by Granite]

[edit on 18-5-2010 by Granite]

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Originally posted by VitriolAndAngst
Good for you, I'd never have noticed the "GOLDMEMBER" on your ID.

Now you're acting like I'm the one who brought it up???
Nice Try!

Originally posted by VitriolAndAngst
really bad happens -- there will be lots of interesting excuses and there will be conspiracy theories and there will be people like IgnoranceIsntBlisss -- a gold star member of a conspiracy site that is so "against the powers that be" that they diminish the problem, or they figure you did something wrong, or maybe whatever BP does was the best that could be done. www.abovetopsecret.com...

OK, last comment on this; you are bragging about all the popularity your comments have and then explaining about how you "swim against the tide" on these emotional issues.

I wasn't bragging as I didn't even bring up the issue. But my point was that's its remarkable that I've managed it considering all the people you piss off being a truth-in-the-middle iconoclast extremist bastard

Then of course, your complaining about our "undocumented nonsense" and you have no support for your idea that Oil dissipates underwater

Do you even know what oil is? Can you describe it? What is in it? What oil ISNT?

So you're contending that oil remains a solid BLOB?

In the time it would take for oil to travel to the vicinity of the Florida Straits, any oil would be highly weathered and both the natural process of evaporation and the application of chemical dispersants would reduce the oil volume significantly. latimesblogs.latimes.com...

Jane Lubchenco, administrator of the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration, said yesterday in an interview on PBS’s “NewsHour’’: “By the time the oil is in the loop current, it’s likely to be very, very diluted. And so it’s not likely to have a very significant impact. It sounds scarier than it is.’’ www.boston.com...

USF oceanographer Robert Weisberg said contact with the spill is imminent. Fingers leading off of the current had come as close as 40 Kilometers but have since back off. But the current itself continues to move. ... But it will be very diluted, not the heavily visible spill. From there it will carry the oil out to sea and dump it in the deep Atlantic Ocean. wokv.com...

or that methane doesn't have an impact.

Please quote me where I said it doesn't have an impact...

So what do YOU prefer: an oil slick, or dissolved methane? Which is worse? Short term; Long term?

Oil releases KILL, and bigger ones kill MORE ocean life.

You've got to be kidding me.

This one is BIGGER and DEEPER than any other in the Gulf, which already has a problem with low circulation (except for the Loop current), and couple that with the amount of pollution coming out of the Mississippi -- was on the brink to begin with.

Granted, the area already has dead zone issues and this event will amplify it.

But I'd like to point out how the river detla is actually helping to push back against the oil from penetrating too deeply inwards:


And inherently, it's also helping to break the oil up. Especially considering the depth that the oil is protruding from. 5,000' of water with all sorts of current and pressure dynamics to help begin the separation process. Things could be much worse, like if this happened at the Prince William Sound.

Then, downstream of that, is perhaps the biggest, most important, swamp on the entire planet; The Everglades. The Yellow River, the Nile, the Amazon and the Mississippi -- those are going to be in the top ten list of important rivers, and the Everglades is at the top of swamps.

This updated chart by the LA Times shows the loop current go around the everglades:


And even if the most vulnerable western side were 'directly' hit, the Glades pour out into the ocean, meaning the numerous rivers and waterways would push back against the black tide much like we're seeing at the delta.

I'd also say that NOT having emotion when you are talking about an Ocean dying -- well, there's a name for that. Keeping a cool head and being rational -- that's great. But a lack of emotion is not.

EMOTIONS ARE IRRATIONAL: FACT!! Emotions are the inverse of rational. PERIOD.

[edit on 25-5-2010 by IgnoranceIsntBlisss]

reply to post by IgnoranceIsntBlisss


The depth of the blow out makes no difference as far as the consequences you espouse. You are obviously a neophyte if you think 100 psi is a large pressure. Your garden hose has about 60 psig. I only wish the pressures they are dealing with were only 100 psig instead of a minimum at 5000' of ocean depth @ .433 psi/ft of hydrostatic head is over 2300 psi at the ocean seabed. In addition this is an annular blowout(look up what an annulus is) which means friction losses from 18,000' at the estimated rate probably makes the reservoir pressure over 15,000 psi. Being that the mud in the riser that weighed 16#/gallon was holding back reservoir pressure that means that the reservoir pressure probaly exceeds 15,000 psi. It may be time to get off your bike since you obviously don't take warm showers or drive a car and quit pretending you know something about the subject matter.

Originally posted by billyjack
reply to post by IgnoranceIsntBlisss

 

The depth of the blow out makes no difference as far as the consequences you espouse. You are obviously a neophyte if you think 100 psi is a large pressure. Your garden hose has about 60 psig. I only wish the pressures they are dealing with were only 100 psig instead of a minimum at 5000' of ocean depth @ .433 psi/ft of hydrostatic head is over 2300 psi at the ocean seabed. In addition this is an annular blowout(look up what an annulus is) which means friction losses from 18,000' at the estimated rate probably makes the reservoir pressure over 15,000 psi. Being that the mud in the riser that weighed 16#/gallon was holding back reservoir pressure that means that the reservoir pressure probaly exceeds 15,000 psi. It may be time to get off your bike since you obviously don't take warm showers or drive a car and quit pretending you know something about the subject matter.

I gave up with this guy -- after he posts an ocean map that comes from BP PR and the Media. The aquifer under Florida is on prehistoric coral. You dig down about 2 inches and you are in it -- it's as porous as can be. Salt might not get into the aquifer because of water pressure -- that THAT does not stop osmotic and hydrostatic processes. If you introduce some other chemical besides salt -- what is going to happen? I know enough that I'm pretty sure almost everyone is "out of their depths on this." Deep ocean drilling is very, very difficult -- and BP was cutting corners, it it were an easy fix, they wouldn't be turning away scientists and the media in an effort to say "nothing to see here." What the media shows, is what BP and the Government are willing to let them see.

BP is using dispersants to protect the public from SEEING the real magnitude of the spill is WORSE than them doing nothing. The dispersants are making the oil NOT CLUMP and so it's going to enter deeper into the ecosystem. The MAIN CURRENT, does indeed flow the way the IgnoranceIsBlisss showed -- but that does not include all the currents at different levels and eddies -- there is NO boundary that stops this pollution from going up the Mississippi or entering the Everglades.

BP might have only hidden the problem for a few years as it travels to England, and can go all the way to the Mediterranean. When that happens, we will have an army of bloggers telling us it was "natural leakage" or caused by environmental restrictions on business -- anything but putting responsibility on a company that profited from cutting corners.

There might be nothing that can be done -- but that's an easy copout for people who's main interest is CYA -- so just on principle, as this is important to the entire world, BP should be out of the way and we should have every expert in the world looking at the problem.

Obama is in a tight squeeze, he has to depend on the Banks that ruined the economy and he has to depend on the Oil Companies -- or have them shut everything down as they did to Jimmy Carter for daring to try to get us off oil.

All these people who KNOW so much, think we can't get off oil. Well, the first cars like the Model T ran on alcohol, and other biofuels. Hemp (related to but NOT exactly Marijuana) and Alcohol all had a prohibition at the same time. Then this polluting black stuff came along with the help of Standard Oil and Henry Ford and we started using Gasoline which could not be produced by farmers. Additionally, the automakers took an interest in public transit and got rid of all the trollies except in San Francisco.

DuPont and Paper Manufacturers also had an interest in keeping the prohibition on hemp alive.

Once again, all the worlds big problems are easy to fix -- but they can also be traced back to massive profits. Hunger, disease, war -- are all a growth industry. It is inevitable that this catastrophe was going to occur. It is NOT inevitable that we had no solution to it except that it would have cost BP some up front money.

Originally posted by VitriolAndAngst
after he posts an ocean map that comes from BP PR and the Media.

What are you talking about?

The aquifer under Florida is on prehistoric coral. You dig down about 2 inches and you are in it -- it's as porous as can be.

What? Where? Which part of Florida? Which aquifer in FL?

I can go outside right now and dig down 20' and hit only SAND. I can go down to any part of Tampa Bay, the Clearwater barrier island strip, or on down to the Ft. Myers / Naples barrier islands, or down to Miami and then on up to Cocoa Beach and its all sand. The only place that the beach / soil is crushed coral (that I've ever seen) is in the small handful of tiny 'beaches' to be found in the Keys.

What I sense from basically all of those most panicked by the Gulf Gusher (and "Global Warming") is a complete lack of concept of how big the Gulf, FLorida, the oceans and especially the entire earth really is. It's HUGE.

Salt might not get into the aquifer because of water pressure -- that THAT does not stop osmotic and hydrostatic processes. If you introduce some other chemical besides salt -- what is going to happen?

I've yet to see any officials imply that oil will get into any of the aquifers around the Gulf. Not historically, not now have I noticed any mention of this. If you have some data please present it. If you don't then that isn't a matter you 'play around with'. You don't tell people their water will be contaminated if you've never bothered researching whether it will or not. This is ALL serious stuff and people who face this thing are freaked out enough.

What state do you live in might I ask?

BP is using dispersants to protect the public from SEEING the real magnitude of the spill is WORSE than them doing nothing. The dispersants are making the oil NOT CLUMP and so it's going to enter deeper into the ecosystem.

Yeah, and that is GOOD. The more its spread around the better off it all is. Nature knows what to do with it. Slicks DESTROY, and take forever to go away.

This isn't used motor oil we're talking about here.
www.abovetopsecret.com...

[edit on 26-5-2010 by IgnoranceIsntBlisss]

reply to post by IgnoranceIsntBlisss


I respect the effort you've put in here, but that's about all I can respect about what you've said.

I don't know what YOU are talking about, but I grew up in Florida (30+ years) and spent most of my life there and unless you live on a man-made mountain, you can dig 6 feet down just about anywhere in the state and hit WATER. You are lying to yourself and anyone else here if you say otherwise. I know this because my family owned a construction business and a pool business, and I can say FIRST-HAND that you are talking about an exception, not the rule when it comes to digging down and hitting sand. To install pools in Florida, ANYWHERE, you have to dig them out AND pump the water out WHILE laying the steel and then injecting the concrete in segments. The water is the biggest problem construction workers face besides limestone and coral, which is when you dig down to about 8 feet and beyond. It is why you will always find Honda 20Kw generators with massive pumps to get rid of water from in the ground while they lay foundations. I could dismiss the rest of your arguments, but I will further dignify my reason for this post.

I've read your 'factoids' on seepage and you obviously don't understand anything about chemistry or biology to take a subject you know absolutely nothing first-hand about and talk about it like you are the foremost expert... that is true ignorance my friend.

The seepage you refer to is in such small quantities, spread out over an exceptionally large area (all of the world's oceans) and through an incredibly large cubic volume of water, over the course of a YEAR, which is according to your own references. Grasp that for a moment. It is the equivalent of pissing ONE TIME in an olympic size swimming pool. The number of urine molecules are so highly outnumbered by the chlorine and water molecules, that the urine would never be noticeable. This amount of oil spilling now is more like 10 people pissing every 15 minutes in a kiddie pool (the Gulf), and then slowly pouring the kiddie pool over and over again into the olympic pool (the rest of the oceans). The local effects will be felt first and hardest because they are closest (the kiddie pool / Gulf), but for you to discount the FACT that this oil will NOT dilute like natural seepage does, borders on asinine.

Ixtoc took 9 months to spill 140 million gallons, so do the math. 140 / 9 = 15.56 million gallons a month (30K barrels a day). We are in the first month and have almost tripled that according to conservative estimates. Apacheman already provided you (in another thread) with the approximate amount of oil that can come from a 20" pipe (approximately 35 million gallons) and that wasn't enough, you continue to piss people off with your ignorance instead of listening to people who actually hold a degree or two in these areas and have the resources and understanding to realize how severe this is without 'doomongering'. What I consider 'doomongering' is when people talk out of their arse and create wild and crazy theories that hold no credence whatsoever, with little evidence to back them up. Granted, there are a FEW people doing that, but you are grouping everyone who has valid concerns and a good, intelligent understanding with those few who are throwing out wild, uneducated theories. In my book, what you are doing by trying to downplay the severity of this, is just as bad as those who are trying to inflate it. Get off your high horse and as others have said, admit when you are wrong, at least about the few things that I've seen here.

To conclude, I have a lot of family and friends all over Florida who have told me about the sea salt smell being gradually replaced with a strong 'WD40' smell. That's bad enough for me and everyone else without the full effects yet. I seriously hope you'll reconsider your position.

~Namaste

This well has reported pressure anomolies, they are trying to seal a rig in the north sea that has pressure 'problems'. And I just saw this:


www.ynetnews.com...

An offshore rig in the middle east with a gas leak...kills 3.

Is this frequency of gas problems new or not?

reply to post by SonOfTheLawOfOne


Yo, chill...

I don't know what YOU are talking about, but I grew up in Florida (30+ years) and spent most of my life there and unless you live on a man-made mountain, you can dig 6 feet down just about anywhere in the state and hit WATER.

I never said you wouldn't hit water. But that also doesn't mean the water isn't down there saturating sand. He said you'd dig 2" and hit ancient coral. Do you recall hitting this coral TWO feet below?

Ixtoc took 9 months to spill 140 million gallons, so do the math. 140 / 9 = 15.56 million gallons a month (30K barrels a day). We are in the first month and have almost tripled that according to conservative estimates.

What estimates? Oh, some professor somewhere watched the video of the leak (which is dynamic and spewing from multiple leaks) and chalked up some number that would grab headlines?

I used history to say it could be 60,000. I was even fair and didn't point out how the distorted diameter of the pipe could make it 30% less, or how the drilling pipe inside the well pipe makes it something like 10% smaller.

Since you're such an expert, would do us all a favor and refute the methods they used to get this estimate:

WASHINGTON - Between 12,000 and 19,000 barrels of oil per day are spilling into the Gulf of Mexico from the Deepwater Horizon oil spill, according to the best estimates of a federal technical group led by Marcia McNutt, the director of the U.S. Geological Survey.

That rate would mean that the spill, which followed the blow out at the well April 20, had released between 432,000 and 684,000 barrels of oil into the Gulf to date. That translates into between 18 and 28 million gallons of oil, making this spill by far the worst in American history, far surpassing the Exxon Valdez disaster, which dumped 11 million gallons into the waters off Alaska. www.nola.com...

In my book, what you are doing by trying to downplay the severity of this, is just as bad as those who are trying to inflate it. Get off your high horse and as others have said, admit when you are wrong, at least about the few things that I've seen here.

Ok, I try to confirm their WILD speculation and hype with history and find their ideas not to be the case. I present these findings and now I'm a big oil shill. Right.

Granted, there are a FEW people doing that,

Almost quite literally every new thread on the subject has all new people saying the same stuff.

To conclude, I have a lot of family and friends all over Florida who have told me about the sea salt smell being gradually replaced with a strong 'WD40' smell.

Where?

I seriously hope you'll reconsider your position.

What exactly is my position?

reply to post by CAELENIUM


People in glass houses, shouldn't throw stones! The Brits have more blood on they're hands than can/would ever be imagined by the U.S...