Riddle me this Athiests...

reply to post by CHA0S

but do you like it when believers try to tell you with such certainty that God exist, yet provide you with only words of faith.

Honestly I could care less. Like I said they have the right to express their belief. At least when I express my lack of belief and point out the flaws in their religion its with a logical well reasoned argument. If their beliefs cannot stand up to simple scrutiny than how are they true or real in any sense? One must question beliefs in order to test whether they are true.

Both like little kids constantly bickering at each other.

Only one argument is based in logic, reason, science or all 3 and the other argument is based in the ignorance of blind faith. The reason I like to point out the flaws in religion is because I used to be religious and I figured them out for myself, helping people wake up is far nobler than putting them back to sleep with fairy tales from the Bible. But even with the most reasoned arguments as to why God probably doesn't exist (most atheists are not 100% closed to the idea of God, they merely lack belief in him due to lack of evidence for his existence) will do nothing against a closed religious mind.

So its more like an adult arguing with a little child about the existence of Santa, the adult could make the most reasoned scientific explanation for why a magical elf-king could not exist but the kid would just ignore it and defend myths like the Rudolph story as absolute truth.

Originally posted by Solofront
There is no "I prefer to be this, I prefer to be that" your either something or your not.

What I meant to ask was, how many of the criminals were of christian faith DURING the act of the crime?

Wich brings us back to chrstianitys selling point:
Do whatever you like!
Just sit in this box once a week, and tell us about it.
Nothing cant be solved by x lords prayers and y hail marys!
We dont even take money for it (anymore)!

Originally posted by debunky
Wich brings us back to chrstianitys selling point:
Do whatever you like!
Just sit in this box once a week, and tell us about it.
Nothing cant be solved by x lords prayers and y hail marys!
We dont even take money for it (anymore)!

Who learned you to spoke?

lol, your post makes no sense man, ah well, anyways...



I'm still waiting for my question to be answered...

"How many of the criminals were of christian faith DURING the act of the crime?"

Here is another question as well...

"Of the felonies committed, what percentage of the suspects involved were of christain faith what percentage were not?"

[edit on 20-5-2010 by Solofront]

Originally posted by Solofront
I'm still waiting for my question to be answered...

"How many of the criminals were of christian faith DURING the act of the crime?"

Here is another question as well...

"Of the felonies committed, what percentage of the suspects involved were of christain faith what percentage were not?"

You know, you can look up crime statistics on your own.

Since over 83% of prisoners self-identify as christians, and 75% or so of America self-identifies as christians, it's a fairly good bet that a similar percentage of christians committed the crimes.

Since the percentage of incarcerated christians is higher than the national average it could mean that either:

1. some prisoners are converting.... or....
2. christians are more likely to commit crimes than others.

Either way, having a prison system dominated by christians doesn't speak well for christianity.

and once again it is stated, the only logical choice is agnostic as there is no means to prove or disprove a creator. As for believers telling me I am going to hell for not believing, I'm sure my creator if "it" does exist will understand my choices in life and get along fine with me in the end, why else would it have made me? Organized Religion is a disease that kills spirituality... not to say all churches are bad, I have gone to plenty of fine churches and meet very friendly individuals... fundamentalist are the ones you gotta watch out for.

Originally posted by Vicious Jones
and once again it is stated, the only logical choice is agnostic as there is no means to prove or disprove a creator.

Agnosticism is not a logical choice, especially for the reasons you cited. If an issue cannot be proved or disproved there is no logic in holding out hope that proof either way should arrive. The only logical choice is to arrive at a certitude on the issue.

Originally posted by traditionaldrummer
Since the percentage of incarcerated christians is higher than the national average it could mean that either:

1. some prisoners are converting.... or....
2. christians are more likely to commit crimes than others.

Either way, having a prison system dominated by christians doesn't speak well for christianity.

Or does it?

It seems that, if the statistics revolves around the conversion of them while IN prison, some reason or another was provided to them and convinced them that christianity was the route to go, faith wise.

When was the last time you heard of a christain robbing someones home in the middle of the night while the husband was at work and the wife and kids were alone asleep?

I'm not talking about those "rare" instances.

When was the last time we had christain suicide bombers?

Again, not those rare instances.

I'm sure someone will still scoure the web and find a christain committing one of the above crimes, though how much more so have we had non christains committing the same crimes?

And yes, I could look up statistic on my own...however it seems whenver I don't someone else does...

Originally posted by traditionaldrummer

Originally posted by Vicious Jones
and once again it is stated, the only logical choice is agnostic as there is no means to prove or disprove a creator.

Agnosticism is not a logical choice, especially for the reasons you cited. If an issue cannot be proved or disproved there is no logic in holding out hope that proof either way should arrive. The only logical choice is to arrive at a certitude on the issue.

I do apologize, hasty typing. I would restate that as Agnosticism being the rational choice for the information available. I would say there is no logical choice and imo there never will be. Thanks for pointing out my error.

Edit: that is assuming I am dealing with people who think they "know" something... I dont assume to be more rational than someone who "believes" something, I don't hold it against little kids for believing in the tooth fairy.

[edit on 20-5-2010 by Vicious Jones]

Originally posted by Solofront

Originally posted by traditionaldrummer
Since the percentage of incarcerated christians is higher than the national average it could mean that either:

1. some prisoners are converting.... or....
2. christians are more likely to commit crimes than others.

Either way, having a prison system dominated by christians doesn't speak well for christianity.

Or does it?

It seems that, if the statistics revolves around the conversion of them while IN prison, some reason or another was provided to them and convinced them that christianity was the route to go, faith wise.

When was the last time you heard of a christain robbing someones home in the middle of the night while the husband was at work and the wife and kids were alone asleep?

I'm not talking about those "rare" instances.

When was the last time we had christain suicide bombers?

Again, not those rare instances.

I'm sure someone will still scoure the web and find a christain committing one of the above crimes, though how much more so have we had non christains committing the same crimes?

And yes, I could look up statistic on my own...however it seems whenver I don't someone else does...

Unfortunately, this is not how society works.,

If I kill someone for any reason and they find my membership card for The Church of Satan, you know they will report a Satanist murdered someone. They might even go so far as to call it a ritual killing or some crap. On the other hand, if I were wearing a cross around my neck at the time of the murder, I would just be a guy.

A Muslim sets off a bomb in NYC for POLITICAL reasons and it is still promoted as Muslim terror and Muslim bombing. Tim McVey was a Christian. Find me one headline calling what he did a "Christian bombing." This is why you will not find a decent answer in your quest but good luck.

Originally posted by Solofront

It seems that, if the statistics revolves around the conversion of them while IN prison, some reason or another was provided to them and convinced them that christianity was the route to go, faith wise.

That's a big "if". The percentages of incarcerated and non-incarcerated are nearly identical so there's not much pointing to prison as a huge institution of conversion. Christians do all manners of crimes and immoralities, including their figureheads. Look at Jimmy Swaggart, Ted Haggard, etc....

Originally posted by Vicious Jones
Edit: that is assuming I am dealing with people who think they "know" something...

Nobody knows an answer to whether there is or isn't deities because, as you stated, no proof exists for either side of the argument. However, I feel safe in forming the certitude that there is no reason to believe there are deities anymore than there's reason to believe in the tooth fairy. Agnosticism about the tooth fairy would suggest it's possible that it may exist, yet most people exclude this as a possibility altogether. I have a feeling that agnosticism about deities exists only because there are huge numbers of people worldwide that believe in deities, so it suggests a greater likelihood that they may exist.

Originally posted by traditionaldrummer

Originally posted by Vicious Jones
Edit: that is assuming I am dealing with people who think they "know" something...

Nobody knows an answer to whether there is or isn't deities because, as you stated, no proof exists for either side of the argument. However, I feel safe in forming the certitude that there is no reason to believe there are deities anymore than there's reason to believe in the tooth fairy. Agnosticism about the tooth fairy would suggest it's possible that it may exist, yet most people exclude this as a possibility altogether. I have a feeling that agnosticism about deities exists only because there are huge numbers of people worldwide that believe in deities, so it suggests a greater likelihood that they may exist.

The axiom which is applied in all scientific researches, 'There is no effect without a cause.' Search out the cause of whatever is not the work of man, and reason will furnish the answer to your question."

To assure ourselves of the existence of God, we have only to look abroad on the works of creation. The universe exists, therefore it has a cause. To doubt the existence of God is to doubt that every effect has a cause, and to assume that something can have been made by nothing.

Originally posted by Shadow Herder
The axiom which is applied in all scientific researches, 'There is no effect without a cause.' Search out the cause of whatever is not the work of man, and reason will furnish the answer to your question."

To assure ourselves of the existence of God, we have only to look abroad on the works of creation. The universe exists, therefore it has a cause. To doubt the existence of God is to doubt that every effect has a cause, and to assume that something can have been made by nothing.

It is only an assumption that the primary cause is a god, deity or some other form of creator. The universe may exist due to something with a perfectly natural physical causation that doesn't rely on the supernatural.

It doesn't matter if god has infinite power,

if i have ANY power, god can not have ALL power.

Besides which if god is operating on an infinite scale how can there every be any meaningful correspondence/relationship between me & it/him/her?

The notion of a big, magic god is just silly.

I think it is just parental care transference to some imagined creature which is collectively engaged in.

We really do live on a relatively [to human populations] small planet,
and simply can not afford to indulge in wishful, anthropomorphic thinking to assuage our insecurities & doubts,

or our prevarication of implicit responsibilities as adults of our species.

The reason people indulge in the belief of god is because they don't want to take responsibility for their own thought process.

Then they might begin to think about & actually question their reflexive, mindless & often socially acceptable actions.

Imagine a society directed by a thought process instead of instincts & mindless emotions?

Blasphemy!

Intelligence is the work of Satan.
Thought is the work of Satan.
Your own conscious is the work of Satan.
Weighing your own actions against some kind of ethical scale, you guessed it, . . Satan.



you guys are just weird.

Dangerously weird who are condemning yourselves, your children & your species to extinction because you can't handle the responsibility.

Religion: the last bastion of the Irresponsible.

[edit on 20-5-2010 by slank]

Originally posted by Solofront

Originally posted by debunky
Wich brings us back to chrstianitys selling point:
Do whatever you like!
Just sit in this box once a week, and tell us about it.
Nothing cant be solved by x lords prayers and y hail marys!
We dont even take money for it (anymore)!

Who learned you to spoke?

lol, your post makes no sense man, ah well, anyways...

I'm still waiting for my question to be answered...

"How many of the criminals were of christian faith DURING the act of the crime?"

Here is another question as well...

"Of the felonies committed, what percentage of the suspects involved were of christain faith what percentage were not?"

[edit on 20-5-2010 by Solofront]

What is the part that confuses you?
The sitting in a box thing? It's called confessional. No matter what you did, usually you get sent out again with an assignment of x lords prayers and y hail marys.
Earlier, you would also get a bill. (en.wikipedia.org...)

reply to post by slank

The reason people indulge in the belief of god is because they don't want to take responsibility for their own thought process.

What a strong opinion you have here! Are you saying when I make a bad decision I automatically chalk it up to "Satan did it"? So I guess all those men and woman who found religion in prison were willing to take accountability for their actions prior to their conversion. What a joke of a statement you made.

Intelligence is the work of Satan.
Thought is the work of Satan.
Your own conscious is the work of Satan.
Weighing your own actions against some kind of ethical scale, you guessed it, . . Satan.

I'm 99.9999999% positive if I get my friend killed in a fire at work and then I stand before my superiors and give an account of why I made the decision I did instead of making the right decision based on my emotions then I would be unemployed right now. Saying "Satan is the cause for all my bad decisions and poor judgments" is immature and a poor excuse. I, personally, think it makes you look weak to accuse something people can't see for your own actions. Could it be possible? Probably, but ultimately you did it and need to be a man, or woman , and just admit it.

It's much easier to say "I messed up" then it is to bring my personal beliefs into the equation when they are irrelevant to begin with. More of your own opinions, stop assuming everyone is a hard core Christian.

you guys are just weird.

Ditto.

Dangerously weird who are condemning yourselves, your children & your species to extinction because you can't handle the responsibility.

We are our own species now? I guess we evolved genetically into irresponsibility over thousands of years. What are we now if we aren't human?

Religion: the last bastion of the Irresponsible.

ATS: the last bastion for idiots with an opinion.

Originally posted by CHA0S
and towards those with an absence of faith. I'm talking about Atheists of course, those who try to argue "there is no God"

No evidence to say there is a god. I do not claim there is no god, all I claim is there is no reason to believe in one. I'm on the line of agnostic / atheist. I do not believe any earth religion is true, how could it be. How could humans in the fraction of the time they existed, 1 planet out of a trillion claim to have the answers to existence?

We can barely even comprehend god. For someone to have faith he does exist is placing certainty on uncertainty. Incomprehensible god.

Thousands of religions, pick the wrong one and go to hell. A jealous god?

reply to post by Shadow Herder

To doubt the existence of God is to doubt that every effect has a cause,

That's a rather perverse corruption of logic there. Simply because the Universe exists does not mean it needs a living being or creator, it merely needs a "PRIME MOVER" like the Big Bang to get it rolling.

There is no reason to believe a conscious being or deity is needed as the cause of the Universe. That is not to say there is absolutely no God but that with no evidence for one we lack a reason to believe. Basing one's beliefs in reality isn't closed-minded or arrogant as some in this thread suggested earlier.

The religious zealots are open only to possibilities within their religion or denomination. The scientific mind is carried wherever the evidence takes it and when new evidence is found changes accordingly.

Even if someone took your twisted logic and accepted that God was the only prime mover possible it would still leave the question of well what caused God? Just like in cosmology the Big Bang still leaves us with the question "What happened before the singularity?". One thing is for sure, science doesn't allow us to give up and claim a magical sky daddy is responsible.

[edit on 20-5-2010 by Titen-Sxull]

[edit on 20-5-2010 by Titen-Sxull]

Originally posted by Titen-Sxull
reply to post by Shadow Herder

 

The religious are open only to possibilities within their religion or denomination. The scientific mind is carried wherever the evidence takes it and when new evidence is found changes accordingly.

Lies only supported by your own opinion. I find myself quite open to scientific knowledge. Just because I'm religious doesn't make me close-minded as you put it. You should stop speaking in place of the religious. Just because you lost your Christian faith, or whatever you choose to call it, doesn't give you the voice to speak for all the religious. Not all of them restrict themselves to their denomination. You wouldn't understand this of course because you think they all share the same views.


[edit on 20-5-2010 by novastrike81]