Revelation; Ch6- The Sins of the Church?

I want to offer some thoughts on Revelation ch6

I looked at this chapter in earlier threads, and I've been summing it up in the obvious way- the expression of God's wrath upon the nations- based on the various "echoes" of different passages in the Old Testament.

This time round, though, I'm going to be asking the question; why do so many of these "echoes" carry overtones of God's wrath against his own people?

Let me show you what I mean, starting with some of the passages quoted in my thread on the "Sixth Seal" (i.e. vv12-17 of this chapter).

Firstly, there was the "great earthquake" of v12. That's where I found an "echo" of the earthquake mentioned at the beginning of Amos, which indicates the real start of the "judgement" theme in prophecy.

But the prophecies of Amos are addressed mainly against Israel themselves, against their chronic injustice and their failure to listen to the prophets.

In the rest of the passage, we can find echoes of Joel ch2 vv10-11;-
"The earth quakes before them, the heavens tremble.
The sun and moon are darkened, and the stars withdraw their shining...
The Day of the Lord is great and very terrible; who can endure it?"

But Joel's warning in this chapter is addressed to Zion, and he continues by calling them to repentance;
"Yet even now, says the Lord, return to me with all your heart."

I moved on to the echoes of Jeremiah ch4 vv27-29, in the shaking of the mountains, the darkening of the heavens, and the flight among the rocks.

But Jeremiah, once again, is addressing the city of Jerusalem, with God's complaints about their disobedience.
"For my people are foolish, they know me not...
They are skilled in doing evil, but how to do good they know not." Jeremiah ch4 v22.

Turning back, now, to the rest of Revelation ch6;

In one of my previous threads- "4 Horsemen-Why?"- I looked at this four-fold group and traced it back to the similar groups (horses and chariots) mentioned in Zechariah.

But there's also a four-fold pattern in some of the prophecies about the fate of Jerusalem.

In Ezekiel ch 14 v21 there's a declaration that God is going to send "four sore evils upon the land"- namely, the sword, famine, evil beasts, and pestilence. The same list can be found in Ezekiel ch5 vv16-17, and a similar list (with "captivity" instead of "beasts") in Jeremiah ch15 v2.

Then we find, in Revelation ch6 v8, that the four agents of "Death and Hades" are exactly the same "sore evils" that were listed by Ezekiel.

As for the famous "Horsemen" themselves, I examined them carefully in the attached link;

Four Horsemen- Considered in detail.

You'll see from that link that I threw my weight- such as it is- behind the older popular tradition which names them as "Pestilence, War, Famine, and Death".
That quartet can easily be recognised as yet another version of the same four-fold pattern of destruction, part of the warnings against Jerusalem.

How are these overtones of "God's wrath against his own people" to be understood?

I can think of two explanations, and there may be truth in both of them.

One is that, with the coming of Christ, God's claim to recognition and worship is extended from Israel to the world at large. As Paul says in Acts ch17 v30;
"The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all men everywhere to repent."
In that case, the charge of unfaithfulness and idolatry, which was historically directed against Israel themselves, can also be extended. It can become part of his indictment against the world at large.

As for the church, God's people in the more restricted sense, they would necessarily experience the same devastating events as the rest of the world. They would be among the people recognising and fearing the time of judgement. Only the martyrs mentioned in v9, already removed from the scene, can be detached enough to welcome what God's doing.

But the very existence of those martyrs points towards the possibility that God's wrath might be applied to the church more directly.

It's one of the running themes of the Old Testament that God's people suffer at the hands of outsiders, because their own sins have prompted him to withdraw his protection.

That's the explanation given for the fall of Jerusalem to the Babylonians;
"Because the people have forsaken me and polluted this place...
I will make void the plans of Judah and Jerusalem, and will cause their people to fall by the sword before their enemies."- Jeremiah ch4 v4 & v7

That's the explanation given for the fall of Samaria to the Assyrians;
"And this was so because the people of Israel had sinned against the Lord their God."- 2 Kings ch17 v7.

And that's the explanation given for the defeats of Israel in the time of Judges.
"And the people of Israel did what was evil in the sight of the Lord...they forsook the Lord, the God of their fathers...So the anger of the Lord was kindled against Israel...and he sold them into the power of their enemies round about".- Judges ch2 vv11-14.

If the same logic can be carried over into the story told in Revelation, then the implication is;
That the martyrs of ch6 v9 lost their lives partly because God had withdrawn his protection from the church
And that God's protection had been withdrawn from the church because of their idolatry and unfaithfulness and other sins.

This, too, would have to be included in what I've been calling the "implied background" of ch6.

Then the overtones of "God's wrath against his people" would have a real application.

But we must not forget that the "chastisements" of God were never the end of the story.
In the second part of the cycle, as described in Judges ch2, Israel would appeal to the Lord in their troubles, and the Lord would respond, and he would help them.

That response is the main theme of this chapter, and the main theme of Revelation as a whole.

"If we are faithless, he remains faithful-
for he cannot deny himself." 2 Timothy ch2 v13




[edit on 16-5-2010 by DISRAELI]

Hi.

I enjoyed your explanation but why is it in prediction and prophecies ?
It's all about the past is it not ?

I do not really understand what your meaning is actually.
Are you saying that God will make those who are in sin suffer from the infidel ?

What is sin to you ? I thought for Judaism sin is opposing Gods will.His will makes people sin is it not sin if it's His will ? Can the infidel sin ?

I'm confused

the fall of the pope and rome...

The Fifth Bowl
"The fifth angel poured out his bowl on the throne of the beast, and his kingdom was plunged into darkness. Men gnawed their tongues in agony and cursed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, but they refused to repent of what they had done." (Revelation 16:10-11)

then the finally destuction by the italian volcano's...

The Seventh Bowl
"The seventh angel poured out his bowl into the air, and out of The Temple came a loud voice from The Throne, saying, "It is done!" Then there came flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder and a severe earthquake. No earthquake like it has ever occurred since man has been on earth, so tremendous was the quake. The great city split into three parts, and the cities of the nations collapsed. God remembered Babylon the Great and gave her the cup filled with the wine of the fury of His wrath. Every island fled away and the mountains could not be found. From the sky huge hailstones of about a hundred pounds each fell upon men. And they cursed God on account of the plague of hail, because the plague was so terrible." (Revelation 16:17-21)

www.keyway.ca...

Originally posted by Sinter Klaas
I enjoyed your explanation but why is it in prediction and prophecies ?
It's all about the past is it not ?

Are you saying that God will make those who are in sin suffer from the infidel ?

What is sin to you ? I thought for Judaism sin is opposing Gods will.His will makes people sin is it not sin if it's His will ? Can the infidel sin ?

Well, I put it in "Predictions and Prophecies", because it's an interpretation of part of Revelation, which is a book of prophecy.

In fact it's part of a series of threads which I've been placing in this forum, for the same reason.

In any case, I am understanding it as prophecy, a description of the future rather than the past. The whole devastation of ch6 is taken as being in the future- we certainly haven't seen anything like it either in the past or the present.

But I was quoting from the Old Testament, because I'm using that as a guide to the meaning of John's book. My theory is that the church people of John's time would have recognised the same allusions, and in that way they would have been able to understand what John was getting at.

It's a standard line of thought in the Old Testament that God was offended with Israel because they disobeyed him or abandoned him. My explanation puts forward the same possibility for the future church contemplated in Revelation.

To me, "Sin" is the fact that the human race has become alienated from God. Individual "sins" are the effects of that alienation on human behaviour. But "opposing God's will", not behaving in the way God wants, will probably do as a quick definition.

I'm not sure why you are puzzled by my usage of this word, so I don't know what needs to be clarified.

[edit on 16-5-2010 by DISRAELI]

Originally posted by ressiv
the fall of the pope and rome...

Thank you for that contribution, and thank you for supplying that link. I've had a brief look at it already. Although you will realise, if you've seen any of my other threads on Revelation, that I've already been taking a slightly different line on the seven seals themselves.

Ah, yes, the question of Rome. To be honest, this isn't really about one particular portion of the church, though I did suspect that a lot of people might be thinking in that direction.
In fact God can probably find faults of different kinds in the whole church. I've just been reading on BTS how an agnostic paid a visit to a christian church this weekend, to see what it was like, and was put off by the constant talk about money. Perhaps this was as likely to have been evangelical as Roman.

[edit on 16-5-2010 by DISRAELI]

reply to post by DISRAELI


Doesn't matter. You have made it clear with your explanation.

Thanks

reply to post by DISRAELI


i'm not involved with any belief .... but i am convinced that all sacret books in the world holds warnings about the future..
John must have spoken to the agient romain oracle sybille to wright douwn his revelations...and the seven seals...

the 7th bowl took my attention couse there is an super volcano (Flegrei) and an hotspot nearby rome.. in Napels..

and remarkable how the bowl's fall in place these days...



[edit on 16-5-2010 by ressiv]

[edit on 16-5-2010 by ressiv]

Originally posted by ressiv
John must have spoken to the agient romain oracle sybille to wright douwn his revelations...and the seven seals...

I wonder why you make that assumption about the Sybil? Do we know anything about what she is supposed to have taught?

In my mind, there is so much of the Old Testament in Revelation that he would hardly have needed any other source. I'm convinced that this is how the peole of John's time would have read the book- they would have been vey familiar with the Old Testament, and they would have recognised so many allusions alomst instantly. Like recognising the meaning of political cartoons, if you're familiar with the images they use.

As for the bowls- yes, but my theory is that we haven't seen the "four horsemen" yet, so the "bowls", on that basis, would be still further in the future. I'm sure there'll be no shortage of volcanoes when the time comes!

[edit on 16-5-2010 by DISRAELI]

I just want to post a link to one of my previous threads, which I think is relevant to this topic.

Souls under the Altar

Advance warning; the next thread in the series will be the postponed "Woman in heaven"

reply to post by DISRAELI

I want to attach links to two later threads, which have a bearing on this theme because they deal with the Beast's "war" with the church;

War on the Saints

The two witnesses



[edit on 30-8-2010 by DISRAELI]

Originally posted by ressiv
the 7th bowl took my attention couse there is an super volcano (Flegrei) and an hotspot nearby rome.. in Napels..

and remarkable how the bowl's fall in place these days...

The trumpets and bowls, including speculation about whether a volcano might be involved, now get attention at the attached location;
Battered planet

I'm now attaching a link to my more recent thread on ch1 of Revelation, which sets the tone for the whole book;

Fear Not

There is now an Index, covering all these Revelation threads, at this location;

Index of Revelation threads

This thread is numbered as #11 in the "order of chapters" list and Biblical reference index.

Revelation 2:23

New International Version (NIV)

23 I will strike her children dead. Then all the churches will know that I am he who searches hearts and minds, and I will repay each of you according to your deeds.

What does God think of our church services and religious practises?

Isaiah 58 (summery)
Worship the Lord as He Wants to Be Worshiped.
In spirit (love God) In truth (love your neighbour)

1) I give to you the truth word for word in plain language,
To tell those who call themselves God's children (church, Christians) why they are spiritually
Robbed and enslaved, why they are fair game for all, and no one to protect them.

2) " They go to church and seem delighted to learn about my ways and commandments".
" They act as if they were my children that has done what is right,
You would almost think they are a righteous people that would never
Abandon its God".
"They love to make a show of coming to me, asking to take action on their behalf".
"They want God to be near them".

3) "We have worshipped and fasted before you, they say, why you aren’t impressed".
"We asked you for forgiveness for our sins, why you don’t hear our prayers".
"I will tell you why, it’s because you live only for yourself, even while you fast and worship".
"You keep right on oppressing those below you".

4) "What good does your praying do while you constantly fight and quarrel amongst yourselves, this kind of fasting and worshipping will never get you anywhere with me".

5)"You bow your head before me like a blade of grass in the wind in external humility, you repent with only your lips
But your hearts are far away from me."
"Is this what you call worshipping, do you really think this will please the Lord".

6)"The only kind of worshipping I want from you is, take a stand for righteousness, do not oppress those who work for you, treat them fairly and give them what they earn".

7)" I want you to share your food with the hungry and reach out to the lonely, give clothes to those who need them, and do not hide from your relatives who need your help".

8)" Help those in trouble and stop making false accusations and spreading vicious rumours”.
"THEN YOUR LIGHT WILL SHINE FROM THE DARKNESS, AND THE DARKNESS AROUND YOU WILL BE AS BRIGHT AS DAY, YOUR GODLINESS WILL LEAD YOU FORWARD, AND THE GLORY OF THE LORD WILL PROTECT YOU FROM BEHIND, AND WHEN YOU CALL ON THE LORD, HE WILL ANSWER". "YES I AM HERE" HE WILL QUICKLY REPLY!!

Titus 1:14
"Stop listening to those who turned their back on the truth."
"They claim to know God but they deny him by the way they live."They are despicable, disobedient and worthless for doing anything good."

1 John 3:19 "Our actions will show that we belong to the truth, so we will be confident when we stand before God.".............

James 27 "Pure and lasting religion in God's sight is caring for the orphans and widows in their troubles, and refuse to let the world corrupt us."(Live a life of love.!!)

reply to post by Cyrus444

Thank you for those comments.
You draw attention to some very important considerations..

What happened to Israel because of disobedience? history is going to repeat itself through Christianity!!!

Isaiah 42:18-25

Failure to see and listen

18-25Pay attention! Are you deaf?
Open your eyes! Are you blind?
You're my servant, and you're not looking! (followers)
You're my messenger, and you're not listening!(Christian leaders)
The very people I depended upon, servants of God,
blind as a bat—willfully blind!

You've seen a lot, but looked at nothing. (Blindly following the blind)
You've heard everything, but listened to nothing. (Only listening what their itching ears what to hear)

God intended, out of the goodness of his heart,
to be lavish in his revelation.(What Christianity is suppose to be about is easy to understand.)
But this is a people battered and cowed, (confusion and falseness abound)
Shut up in attics and closets,(no to little light shining out from Christianity)
Victims licking their wounds,
feeling ignored, abandoned.

But is anyone out there listening?
Is anyone paying attention to what's coming?
Who do you think turned Jacob over to the thugs, (God brought Israel to its knees because of their constant disobedients)

Who let loose the robbers on Israel?(We know through history what happened to Israel, history is going to repeat itself with those calling themselves God’s children Christians, but keep on living selfish self centered lives.)
Wasn't it God himself, this God against whom we've sinned—
not doing what he commanded,
not listening to what he said?
Isn't it God's anger that's behind all this,
God's punishing power?
Their whole world collapsed but they still didn't get it; their life is in ruins but they don't take it to heart.
(This is already happening and it will get worse THERE WILL BE NO RAPTURE…. OUR FAITH WILL BE TESTED REFINED AND PURIFIDE AND THOSE WHO PASS THE TEST WHO STAND FAST IN GOD IT IS THEM WHO WILL BE TAKEN IN THE END, WITH THEIR BODIES FOR THE SOLE REASON TO BE THE FIRST ONES LIVING ON THE NEW EARTH (THE MEEK WILL INHERIT THE EARTH)

THE TRUTH IS EASY TO UNDERSTAND, BUT MANY ARE BLINDED BY TWISTED DOCTRINES!

1. By what law will we be judged? The law of love, according our deeds of love. (James 2:12) (Matt 18:27)


2. What law will set you free? The law of love. (James 2:12)

3. What law satisfies all Gods requirements? Love your neighbor. (Rom 13:8)

4. What path do we have to follow to recieve etetnal life. Love your neighbor. (Luke 10:25)

5. On judgement day who will be the "sheep" Those that followed the path of unselfish deeds of love. (Matt 25)

6. On judgement day who will be the "goats" Those that never followed the path of unselfish deeds of love. (Matt 25)

7. Hope faith and love which one is the greatest? Love (1Cor 13)

8. When will God's mercy win out over His Judgement? Only if you are mercifull towards other. (James 2:13)

9. What do we have to do it we want to please God? Practice unselfish deeds of love towards others. (1 John 3)

10. The two most important commandments? Love your Lord God, love you neighbor. ( Matt 22:37)

11. Only one lind of person hear Gods word and steadily produces a huge havest? Only the honest goodhearted person. (Luke 8:15)

Do a kindergardener receive his 12th grade graduation certificate apon enrolling in elementary school,

or a student his diploma or degree even the same day beginning college or university. Of course not !!

Why then I ask......,
are you under the impression that you've reached your end goal the day you receive Jesus as you Lord and savior.

Is it not written "the way is narrow work hard to get in" or a student who works hard will become like the teacher (Jesus), You are only mature if you are measuring up to the full and complete standards of Christ (Ephesians 4:13).

The warning is this...., keep listening to blind leading the blind, quoting the misinterpreted words of Paul and you will be destroyed in the coming battle.

And the advice is this.... keep seeking the truth, listen to the teachings of Jesus about love with new ears, and start practicing obedience.----Sad roG

SINS OF THE CHURCH PART 3

What is God’s message to those running around declaring themselves special to be raptured at the beginning of the tribulation (day of the Lord)

Amos 5:18-27

Today's New International Version (TNIV)

The Day of the LORD

18 Woe to you who long
for the day of the LORD!
Why do you long for the day of the LORD?
That day will be darkness, not light.

19 It will be as though a man fled from a lion
only to meet a bear,
as though he entered his house
and rested his hand on the wall
only to have a snake bite him.

20 Will not the day of the LORD be darkness, not light—
pitch-dark, without a ray of brightness?

21 “I hate, I despise your religious festivals;
I cannot stand your assemblies.

22 Even though you bring me burnt offerings and grain offerings,
I will not accept them.
Though you bring choice fellowship offerings,
I will have no regard for them.

23 Away with the noise of your songs!
I will not listen to the music of your harps.

24 But let justice roll on like a river,
righteousness like a never-failing stream!

THE DAY OF THE LORD IS TRULY APON US, IT IS VERY POSSIBLE WITHIN MONTHS FROM NOW, WE WILL BE SEVERELY TESTED THE SHEEP WILL BE SEPARATED FROM THE GOATS, MAY GOD HAS MERCY ON OUR SOULS!!

1 Peter 7

Faith will be tested by trails." "Faith will be tested by fire and purified as gold." "If your faith remains strong after fiery trails, it will bring you much praise glory and honor on the day Jesus Christ is revealed to the world."

HE WILL BE LOOKING INTO OUR HEARTS FOR MEEKNESS, RIGHTOUSENESS, LOVE TOWARDS OTHERS, AND LOVE TOWARDS GOD.

Love Is the Greatest
1 Corinthians 13

1 If I could speak all the languages of earth and of angels, but didn’t love others, I would only be a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal.

James 2:17
So you see, faith by itself isn’t enough. Unless it produces good deeds, your faith it is dead and useless.

Jeremiah 17:10
But I, the Lord, search all hearts and examine secret motives. I give all people their due rewards, according to what their actions deserve.

LOVE FOR MATERIALISM, MONEY, SELFISNESS, SELFCENTEREDNESS, PRIDE WILL BE YOUR DOWNFALL NOW AND ALWAYS!!!! DOES NOT MATTER YOU MANY TIMES YOU GO TO CHURH OR CALL YOURSELFS CHRISTIAN.

Revelation 3:2
"Wake up! Strengthen what little remains, for even what is left is almost dead. I find that your actions do not meet the requirements of my God".

Just to clarify;
Nothing in the OP is intended to suggest any particular prophetic signifcance in the year 2012 or the date 21/12/2012

In the present circumstances, this theme has suddenly become more topical.

reply to post by DISRAELI



My response to the claims made about the year 2012 was that I could see no prophetic significance in the date.
This position seems to have been vindicated.