The catalytic converter conspiracy

Originally posted by Binder
reply to post by autowrench

 

I love the 455!!! My favorite engine. My dad had a trans am with one. Every tiny little mod you did to that engine was rewarded with huge power gains. That thing is an absolute beautiful beast. His had 6x heads, and a holley 850 cfm dual pumper, and got 17 city, and about 20 highway. Not bad for 475 bhp. It had 265 rear gears. He got pulled over one time for 185 in a 75. The cop didn't want to bother with the paper work to take him to jail so he ticketed him for 85 mph.

My son was just reading over my shoulder, and he reminded me of the time he got pulled over, the state cop had to chase him for 5 miles before he got close enough to see. That car would fly, and the best part of it is this:
When we first set the engine in the bay, we went home for sleep. the next day we came in to find that the fan and carb was above the fender line. So, we began to engineer. We had to set the engine down 3 inches, and set it back toward the firewall 3 1/2 inches. This required a custom made cross-member. The end result looked like a factory installation. We painted the engine IH red, the heads were gold, as were the alternator and other driven accessories, with black brackets and Hardin Marine aluminum valve covers.
The result was a car that rode like a Caddy, set up straight and nice, no front end sag, the 455 weighs 300 pounds more that the stock corporate 305 that was in the bay. I loved that car, and have made my son promise me he would re-create it again for me. Driving that Bonneville, when you punch the gas pedal, you had better have both hands on the steering wheel!

I have an IHC scout that had an old Borg-Warner. I rebuilt it 3 times before I got it right. I was screwing up the vacuum regulator. When I finally figured it out it was a total facepalm moment, DOH!!! Wish I had known you back then!

Not an easy task at all. Now it has a 727 torqueflight, and I'm happier with it. Indestructable tranny. BTW my scout has a HHO gen on it, and gets 13 city, and 16 highway. Doesn't sound impressive unless you've owned a scout. Before it would pass anything, but a gas station.

Binder, you know why the old Scout gets such terrible mileage, it's the gearing. Those had 4:11 or 4:56 gear sets in the differential assemblies. If you replace them with, say, 3:08 gears, you mileage would vastly improve. But you knew that. We used to call those B-W transmissions "rock crushers" back when. Running one, the gear shift lever always shook and rattled, but then again, one a few Chevelles I owned, the entire car shook with the awesome power of those big block engine. I had an SS 396 tunnel ram and duel 650 double pumpers that would lift the front tires 3 inches when staging, and peal rubber in all four gears. They don't make them like that anymore.

Originally posted by autowrench

Originally posted by LeaderOfProgress
reply to post by autowrench

 

Yes there is impovements to be made on the ignition systms but it WILL NOT double the MPG. What it will do is allow for more consitent spark which in return at HIGH RPM's will give you more efficient fuel burn. At low RPM's you will see little to no difference. We have dyno tested these ignition systems to see the gains and there are only gains at HIGH RPM's which most drivers never do. If you were driving at those RPM's your las concern is MPG. FYI Platnium plugs suck. If you want a good plug get iridiums for a naturally aspirated engine. Taylor wires are much better than most their resistance per foot is the lowest we tested.

[edit on 16-5-2010 by LeaderOfProgress]

I disagree. Case in point. If a stock ignition system burns half the fuel, the rest being dealt with by the CAT, and I can upgrade the voltage to burn all of the fuel instead of only half, does that not double the mileage? Tell you what, I will not argue with you, I like my system fine, in my G-20 I can run all month on one fill up, and that is about to improve as soon as the HHO reactor is installed. By that way, I did mention the mileage falling in city driving. Nothing to be done there. Most of my driving is highway speeds. I am just trying to help people get better mileage and screw the oil companies. For those who like big oil, there is no help for you.

If the conditions that you describe where there, AND there was enough air, then yes. But in practice those conditions are unrealistic. The first thing to consider is that the amount of fuel that is burned will be limited by the amount of oxygen. So if half the fuel is unburned, why would the reason be a weak spark? why not too much fuel for the available oxygen?

You are describing what appears to me like an unrealistic example.

-rrr

-rrr

Originally posted by autowrench

If that is true, they why do planes use 105 octane for their engines?

[edit on 5/17/10 by autowrench]

My guess would be the same reason as with cars, to run at higher compression ratios.

The flame front speed of low octane fuel is faster, but the fuel ignites more easily at higher pressure, higher temperature or higher pressure and temperature. Sometimes it ignites more easily even without a spark.

I wasn't aware that the efficient of an engine would change much with higher octane fuel, as long as the fuel is high octane *enough* to begin with. Put 93 octane in a car that lists 86 octane as the required fuel and your efficiency will probably not change at all, and may even drop, if the fuel's octane rating is achieved by using more ethanol, which has really high octane, but less energy per pound. You will also spend more money doing that.

But any car with an ECU may have slightly unpredictable behavior than what I've described since a computer is metering the fuel based on so many variables, there could be some variable that I haven't thought of. Though generally the one thing the computer does hold really steady is stoichiometric balance. (air fuel ratio)

-rr

-rrr

I don't know much about all this new fuel injected crap. I have a 67 390 Mustang fastback and a 68.5 428cj Mustang fastback and neither one came with a cat. But this talk of a cat not working on a diesel because it doesnt get hot enough is total BS. My F350 is a diesel and I can tell you that the EGT's (exhaust gas temp) is much hotter than any car. I have gauges in my truck that monitor all the important temps. I have seen temps above 1400F working the truck hard and around 800F constant running down the interstate at 65 mph. Thats quite a bit hotter than most of the gas engines in these new cars.

reply to post by I-V-X-X


The thing behind diesel engines is that they DO NOT make the same noxious byproducts that gasoline does thus not requiring a cat to convert the fumes.

reply to post by Binder


Do you know anyone who 'disappeared'? Also, way to blow my mind, I had no clue at all. Is it illegal to remove your CAT and what's the law under and also if it is ellgal how do they find out you removed it?

Originally posted by LeaderOfProgress
reply to post by I-V-X-X

 

The thing behind diesel engines is that they DO NOT make the same noxious byproducts that gasoline does thus not requiring a cat to convert the fumes.

That a fact? I have a chip that I can reprogram the the PCM 6 different ways on the fly. On the dyno I can add 140 rear wheel HP and 212 ft/lbs torque by flipping a switch and nothing else. I can also flip it to another setting and blackout a street. Yet another setting and I can cruse down the interstate getting 24mpg in a 9900 pound 4x4 with 37in tires. My truck never came with a cat. But from what I am told by the eco guy at work is that I am releasing 4x the ammount of bad stuff as most cars today. I can tell you that black cloud that come rolling out everytime I step on it isn't clean air. Yet my truck came from the factory brand new without a cat.

reply to post by I-V-X-X


All you are doing with the programmer is advancing timing and turning up the boost. This has no correlation to the cats on a gasoline car. What are you trying to get at?

I am in the process right now of ordering the right parts to convert my '90 350 Chevy to carb and HEI, so I can run it exclusively on HHO. I am so tired of a computer running my engine with a flawed logic set down by the factory. Carburetors have improved dramatically in the past few years, and I know how to super tune a carb/HEI engine without all those expensive chips and laptop computers. Also, I can get out and dust off my points distributor, in case someone sets off an EMP burst over America, and everyone's cars stop forever.

great post...auto tech is always subverted for $$$...a simple PSA (pressure swing absorbtion) membrane with zeolite could fill the combustion chamber with air @50% oxygen. The engine is now over 2X more efficient...could make engine 1/2 the size. Need to re-program (factory set @21% oxygen in standard atmosphere) combustion settings.

reply to post by ibiubu


OMG a thinker!!! You win the "outside the box" prize for today. Excellent concept. Thanks for blowing my mind. The other concepts I am working on are basically cracking the fuel pre-delivery, and at the point of delivery through various methods. I really haven't come at it from the air side of the paradigm before!!! Beside putting something in the air to help with catalytic cracking. Of course the expansion rate of the intake mix will be different with the gas partial pressures being different, but after some math, and experimentation it just might work.

reply to post by agentofchaos


I know about a lot of people who disappeared. I don't know anyone personally, and it was mostly about a decade ago that it was happening. The internet has made total suppression impossible now, so the game plan has changed to subversion, and usurpation. Get a bunch of looneys to snake oil under developed technology to dupes, and ruin the reputation of the concept. This is exactly what a lot of HHO companies are. The concept works, but it's still being developed, and improved. Their are some that really do work well, and others that are just a high priced joke. Then Mr. Corporate Engineer PHD is paid to test all the phony systems, carefully so as not to accidently show any gains, and laugh condescendingly hoping to discourage anyone from trying to make it work.

In every industry test performed I have noticed they either test a woefully incapable system, or they leave out key considerations. The Mythbusters episode was a prime example. They used a jelly jar generator design, improper electrolyte, and did not re-tune the carb on their car either. Their gen wouldn't have made enough gas to do anything anyway. It was designed to fail from the beginning so Jamie could chortle, and snicker to make anyone curious about the tech feel ashamed for being so. Nothing discourages the human psyche more than shame, and that is the exact tactic they employ. Just listen to the naysayers overzealous condescention, most can't even remain civil in a debate. They look at real world working results, and pontificate about theory, and numbers when the physical inscrutable reality is glaring at them. It is akin to riding in a helicopter, and saying "According to theories once held this thing doesn't really fly, and I'm unwilling to change my mind about those theories, please land before you embarass yourself further."

Originally posted by LeaderOfProgress
reply to post by I-V-X-X

 

All you are doing with the programmer is advancing timing and turning up the boost. This has no correlation to the cats on a gasoline car. What are you trying to get at?

It's doing more than that. The point is this. If I can take a chip and plug it in and increase the fuel milage by 10+ mpg with one program and add 60% more horsepower witha different program. The cat is the least of the issues with cars being built today. They are detuning cars and trucks to run worse from day one. I would think that is a bigger conspiracy.

reply to post by I-V-X-X


I know how it works very well my explanantion just sums it up in simple terms. Yes it can change the LTFT's and STFT's along with the PE and the IS tables based on the IAT, MAF and B1 O2's all in correlation with the EK and CP sensors. They also monitor and adjust KR with the SA table which is based on the input of the above sensors. I can explain all day what a tuner program such as EFI live, HPTuners or even any handheld Bullydog, Diablo, Superchips, Hyperpack and many others do. You are getting better gas mileage by leaning out the AFR and turning down the boost, you are getting HP and TQ by increasing the Allowed boost which is refferenced by the MAP sensor and adjusted by the BOV. I can talk all day about this in a manner most would have to ask questions about. Lets just keep it simple.

You think they are tunning the economy out of them you are mistaken. The power that is left on tap is a buffer. Your vehicle was not made nor designed to run at the parameters you are setting it to with the tuner. Tuner comapanies make you pass through disclaimer screens on the tuners for that reason. Car manufaturers are trying to get the car to last not squeaze every HP and TQ they can out of them. If you want to do that then the risk is yours. Most tuners are generic and can cause a miriad of problems from blown motors to irradic behavior. Not to mention that the rest of your vehicle is not made to handle the added power. Many online will attest to the damge done to drivetrains and motors due to canned tunes.

The problem is that people want economy but yet they want performance, ie they do not want to have to floor it to get up hills. Because of this the manufactures try to meet every one in the middle. Once you buy a vehicle decide what you want to do with it. If you want performance then get it tuned for it, if you want MPG then get it tuned for it.

Once again no conspiracy here.

[edit on 17-5-2010 by LeaderOfProgress]

[edit on 17-5-2010 by LeaderOfProgress]

Originally posted by LeaderOfProgress
reply to post by I-V-X-X

 

I know how it works very well my explanaintion just sums it up in simple terms. Yes it can change the LTFT's and STFT's along with the PE and the IS tables based on the IAT, MAF and B1 O2's all in correlation with the EK and CP sensors. They also monitor and adjust KR with the SA table which is based on the input of the above sensors. I can explain all day what a tuner program such as EFI live, HPTuners or even any handheld Bullydog, Diablo, Superchips, Hyperpack and many others do. You are getting better gas mileage by leaning out the AFR and turning down the boost, you are getting HP and TQ by increasing the Allowed boost which is refferenced by the MAP sensor and adjusted by the BOV. I can talk all day about this in a manner most would have to ask questions about. Lets just keep it simple.

You think they are tunning the economy out of them you are mistaken. The problem is that people want economy but yet they want performance, ie they do not want to have to floor it to get up hills. Because of this the manufactures try to meet every one in the middle. Once you buy a vehicle decide what you want to do with it. If you want performance then get it tuned for it, if you want MPG then get it tuned for it.

Once again no conspiracy here.

[edit on 17-5-2010 by LeaderOfProgress]

Maybe it's time you study up on what you trying to explain in such depth. There is no MAF or O2 sensor on my truck. No spark plugs or spark curve to adjust. The hand held tuners will not do the same things that custom chips will. "EFI live, HPTuners or even any handheld Bullydog, Diablo, Superchips, Hyperpack and many" just stop because these are't even in the same ballpark. Again no matter the tune setting the max boost is 35psi. There is no BOV this isn't the fast and furious. It's not leaning out the fuel or it would increase the EGT's and thats not happening. All it is doing is allowing the the engine to run more efficent. Something the factory isn't allowing it to do.

To add to this. I had 312k on my 2000 F350 when I sold it. I bought it new abd put 100k on it before the first PCM reprogram was done. That program added 120 rwhp and 5 to 6 mpg. It stayed that way till the day I sold it. I didn't have andthing break other than maintence. 212k miles without failure. And I am not the first. BTW the pcm flash was done at a Ford dealership by a Ford tech after hours. He told me that the truck was detuned to keep the cost of the insurance down. This isn't the first time that has happened. The 428 Cobra Jet had a horse power rating far below the real output to keep the insurance cheaper. Chevy and Dodge have both done the same thing. SO tell me again the automakers are not playing games.

[edit on 17-5-2010 by I-V-X-X]

I wonder if it had anything to do with the fact that the former Chairman of the company who developed the substrate for catalytic converters was also a congressman between 1987–2005. When did the mandates kick in? Mid 80s?

Corning Inc., and Amory Houghton.

Hmm. There seems to always be a corporate/political connection with mandates such as these, no? It's all about the benjamins, baby.

reply to post by Binder


Well for everyones info the cat is meant to stop the benziene in unleaded fuel from going into the atmosphere as it is supposedly a carsinogenic not so much as burn extra fuel and as im fairly sure the excess fuel burns on the first part of the exhaust or runs to the sump if it is too excessive. The active ingredient that does this to the exhaust gases is platinum a very small amount of it.

So if someone thinks of a way to seperate the platinum from the cat could be onto a winner $$$$

thats all the info i have for you

Originally posted by Binder
Liquid fuel doesn't burn right? It's the vapor we want. Not only that, we'd like to have short chain hydrocarbons like pentane, heptane, propane etc... except the stuff we put in our tank is mostly octanes, nonecanes, dodecanes etc... the longer the HC chain the longer it takes to burn. The octane molecule is right at the threshold of being too long to burn in time to add power to the combustion cycle because it burns too slow. That's why it is the target molecule for rating gasoline. Anything longer goes out the tailpipe to get burned in the cat.

if what you are saying was totally true, then running on Natgas (CH4, C2H6 mostly) or LPG should solve this problem, but that advantage doesn't materialize in tests (which in itself doesn't mean much of course)

Still, the difference needs to be explained, because these lighter fuels have a wider ignition range than regular gas. While we are at it, H2 should be king because it can be ignited in ratios ranging from 10-90% out of the box. doesn't happen, even though it should be a piece of cake for a tuner. Could you explain why?

Originally posted by sileighty

We also had a mini epidemic of cat thefts a few years ago in England because scrap metal was worth so much and the metals used in cats is expensive, people were literaly stealing them off cars and scrapping them for the cash!

You do know most of those "thefts" were done by the owners? It was rife round this area, people would remove their cat, flog it for scrap and then wait for the MOT to claim they had no idea where it had gone!

I guess there is no need to hide where I work, as what I am about to say is no secret, so here it goes. I work for Corning Inc. at the research and development facility. Corning Inc. is one of the only, if not the only, manufacturers of Cats in the US. Work is now being done to fit all Diesel trucks with Cats. It is a different technology, and has been in the works for years. Among other things Corning is a producer of optical fiber, and flat glass for computer monitors, and LCD TVs. Also our new Gorilla Glass is being used in numerous cell phones and PDAs. The newest models of the IPhone have it I believe. It is extremely tough and scratch resistant. Steve Jobs is a fairly regular visitor up here.

The Catalytic converter does what is claimed, period. It does remove emissions. I personally know and am friends with one of the 3 co-inventors of the modern Cat ceramic formula. A lot has progressed through the years, constant testing is being done. I see carts full of them being tested every day. We have several extruders were new formulations are tested.

All that being said, this company does a LOT of lobbying to have laws passed that require vehicles to have Cats, including all new Diesel trucks. Converters are not as big a portion of the business as they used to be, flat glass and Gorilla, are the big things, but converters still make the company money. From everything I have seen, converters do what they are supposed to do, and are ever being improved, but the bottom line comes down to money. Without laws in place requiring them, none of the auto manufacturers would install them, and that would be a hurt on business. So you can see why this company lobbies so hard. I am not saying it is right, just a fact.

Hopefully I don't get fired for this. I shouldn't as non of it is actually trade secret, and everything I have said is public knowledge already.