Romans 13 is not about civil authority (government), but spiritual. The ecclesiastical conspiracy

This is a very short summary of this video here:




-The KJV was manipulated in order to make people accept the rule of the Kings over them.
-words such as "magistrate" were added out of thin air. Words that do not appear in the original greek manuscripts.


Most of the modern bibles and pastors interpret Romans 13 as referring to civil authority, meaning the government, etc... But the original meaning was about spiritual authority. The video explains this much more nicely. Also most of the modern bible translations have a heading over the top saying it is about "civil authorities".

FEMA suposedly is training pastors on this particular passage, and how to make it clear to their people, when martial law starts, or when something bad happens, that people have to obey the government.

Romans 13:1 Let every soul to the higher authorities be subject, for there is no authority except from God, and the authorities existing are appointed by God, 2 so that he who is setting himself against the authority, against God's ordinance hath resisted; and those resisting, to themselves shall receive judgment

the KJV says "shall receive to themselves damnation", if you resist the power, the authority.


The problem if you interpret this text literally, and not spiritually, is that there is no black or white, there is no gray area. You would have to blindly obey everything or else recive damnation.

Romans 13:3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same: 4For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.

If this is about governments, there is no gray area. It does not say that there are also some bad governments are NOT instituted by God, and that are evil. No. It says that anyone who gets elected, or takes over power, or becomes a dictator or a king or whatever, is set in place by God, and if you resist him you would heap damnation on your head because he is God`s sword, to execute wrath against you. What ?

People say: Well, I am going to obey the laws of the government, untill theu violate tha laws of God. Nope, thats not there. That`s not one of the optiones. If this passage is literally about civil governments, that hey are set in place by God, then Hitler was set in place by God, Stalin was set in place by God, Kadaffi was set in place by God... And they are (quote from Romans 13) "God`s ministers. An evenger to execute wrath on those who practice evil." And that "if you do good, yopu have no fear of them"

That cannot be !

(more in the video - www.youtube.com...)

reply to post by randomguy

I remember arguing about Romans 13 with some Christian friends in the Bush years. They repeated a very popular fundamentalists teaching that George W. Bush was not voted into power, but appointed by God Himself, and therefore we shouldn't question the US President's decisions!
Now that is pure mind-control.
My reading was always that St Paul wanted to keep the peace with the Roman/Jewish authorities, and made it clear that the new Judean movement meant no physical harm to the empire (despite their Messaih's violent eviction of the tax-collecters and money lenders from the temple).

Originally posted by halfoldman
I remember arguing about Romans 13 with some Christian friends in the Bush years. They repeated a very popular fundamentalists teaching that George W. Bush was not voted into power, but appointed by God Himself, and therefore we shouldn't question the US President's decisions!

Funny how that leftist coolaid drinkers are just as bad.

Great post.

S&F

reply to post by zzombie

I suppose you refer here to the Jim Jones scenario, or perhaps Ken Kesey's cool-aid acid test?
In the Jim Jones scenario I doubt people living under total tyranny can be described as "liberals", but yeah, I see your point.
Well, conspiracy theory would implicate the CIA in the cool-aid test, as well as in the Bush presidency, so that's an interesting connection. Sadly, nowadays the supporters all deny this, and the people who made those statements are no longer willing to talk about it.

reply to post by randomguy


You can thank King James for that. That was part of reason for issuing his own official Anglican Bible in English.

The English Tyndale Bible was published before the KJV and closely followed the Greek and Hebrew.

Due to these more accurate translations, the King and the Anglican Church condemned the more accurate Bible and Tyndale had to flee for his life. The Catholic Church also attacked the translation and Tyndale was burnt at stake in 1536.

The King and the Anglican Church followed up with their first authorized Bible, the Great Bible of 1539.

The Geneva Bible (1560), another very accurate Bible based on Tyndales work but also using more of the ancient texts, was the first printed English Bible. It was far more accurate than the 1539 Great Bible.

Again the Monarchy and the Anglican Church reacted negatively to this unauthorized Bible. Queen Elizbeth tried to authorize a new version called the Bishop's Bible in 1568. The Bishop's Bible would form the base for King James authorized version in 1611.

It should be noted the Geneva Bible is a superior translation to the KJV. It was the Bible of the Puritans and many of the Founding Fathers.

[edit on 15/5/10 by MikeboydUS]

It is about civil authority. That is obvious. We have early Greek manuscripts there is no debate here. But you don't obey them in disobedience to God.

Jesus taught "If you were of the world, the world would love you as its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you." The story of Jesus' response to a question about taxes teaches us something about how Christians are to relate to government. Jesus taught that we should pay what we rightfully owe to the government and, by implication, obey the law of the land insofar as it does not require us to disobey God.

Render unto Ceasar

Jesus answered, "My kingdom is not of this world. If my kingdom were of this world, my servants would have been fighting, that I might not be delivered over to the Jews. But my kingdom is not from the world." John 18:36

[edit on 5/15/2010 by Bigwhammy]

reply to post by MikeboydUS

Quite fascinating about Tynndale and his Bible templates for today. en.wikipedia.org...
Although found innocent of bad intentions, the church had it in for him and believed that burning would nevertheless be good for his soul.
After all, it broke no bones.

I suppose he broke the laws of obedience to church and state, or Romans 13 really.
This is what surprises me so often: the inbuilt booby-trap in religion.
As Nietzche would have pointed out: Religion tells you not to lie, so you invent science to find the truth, and when you do they burn you at the stake.
Go figure.



[edit on 15-5-2010 by halfoldman]

Originally posted by Bigwhammy
It is about civil authority. That is obvious. We have early Greek manuscripts there is no debate here. But you don't obey them in disobedience to God.
[edit on 5/15/2010 by Bigwhammy]

It is not.

Yes we do have the early greek manuscripts, and even better, we have an online index with all the words given a number, and a function where you can se in what verses the original greek word apears, so yo can tell better what its real meaning is. This online index is called "Strong`s bible concordance".

Here is Romans 13 in Strong`s bible concordance:

Romans 13 in Strong`s bible concordance


And here is a verse in the concordance, with all the index numbers shown for every greek word:

www.blueletterbible.org.../1


If you click on the letter "C" next to a verse you will see the index numbers and be able to click on an index number for a particular greek word to see what it means, and where else in the bible it apears.

Paul confirms the following verses when he delivers a guy to satan.

3. For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:
4. For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to [execute] wrath upon him that doeth evil.

1 Timothy 1:19 ... Some have rejected these and so have shipwrecked their faith.
20. Among them are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan to be taught not to blaspheme.

Jesus taught that we should pay what we rightfully owe to the government and, by implication, obey the law of the land insofar as it does not require us to disobey God.

You just proved that it is not about civil authority. Because Romans 13 does not say to obey the power "insofar as it does not require us to disobey God".

Rom 13:1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.

Quite the contrary, it says obey all and any "higher power" (or "authority" in other translations) because it is instituted by God himself, and that it is all good and must not be resisted because "rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil".