So Jews do not believe Jesus the Christ was the messiah.

I don't think that any kind of fudging the language will turn Jesus into a great military leader. Besides, it wasn't too long after Jesus was around the the Romans basically stomped the Jews into the dirt and destroyed their Temple. That's not exactly saving anybody. It pretty much ended the Jew's covenant with God.

The Jewish people changed from a bunch of wandering shepherds into a warrior people who kicked ass and took names. They want to get that back. And a delusional sorcerer, necromancer and mystic like Jesus just ain't gonna do the trick.

Though I grew up Jewish, made my Bar Mitzvah and all that, I honestly learned much, much more about my own religion from college courses I took on the subject (and mostly from a particularly brilliant, Iranian born Catholic professor I had), than I did from my, admittedly, bland Reformed Jewish Hebrew School, which was like Judiasm-lite for the assimilated.

First of all, understand that the Early Christians believed that Jesus WAS the Jewish Messiah, fulfilling the Jewish prophesies as they were understood at that time. They considered themselves Jews, and it wasn't until sometime later, largely through the Ministries of Paul and Peter, and later leaders, that they started to differentiate themselves from other Jews and eventually called themselves Christians.

The Jewish concept of what the Messiah is, is not altogether different from the Christian concept, except that Jews believe that Moshiach/The Messiah will only come once, at the end of the world. When you get into the deep "mysteries" (not really secrets, just stuff you don't learn about until you're somewhat older) of what this means, it starts to look different from a spiritual standpoint that what you are maybe familiar with when younger.

The simple story is fairly close to the Christian concept of Jesus' return, minus all the war and Tribulation and Book of Revelation madness. The Moshiach will come, all sins are forgiven, everyone will return to Israel and then "go to heaven." The End.

The spiritual meaning of that story is rather a bit stranger, and not something that was ever taught to me as a child, and comes from later Kabbalistic ideas, stuff that was developed out of the Jewish Bible (generally, the Old Testament, give or take a book here or there), but is not found directly in there:

Without getting too deep into esoteric Kabbalism (which I only ever had a basic grounding in, honestly, yet more than many ever bother with), imagine that when The Fall of Man happened, the world itself became broken and with it, so did Adam's perfected soul, which was really kind of like a part of God...sort of. This Greater Soul shattered into countless "sparks," like little, tiny divine pieces, which became the souls of all mankind ever after. That's what they mean when they say "the spark of life." Ever after, the entire history of the world has been about "gather up the sparks," all these little, missing fragments of a single greater Soul.

The way we humans "gather up the sparks" is by doing good deeds, which heals these pieces together, forming bonds between people, love, understanding, etc. The basic idea is that every good deed done makes Moshciah's appearance come closer and that any given good deed could be the one that finally tips the balance and brings him into the world.

On the most spiritual level, the Moshiach/Messiah is the one who will finally bring all of those sparks, all of those human souls, back together as one unified, perfect whole and in that moment, Heaven is achieved and all are, in a sense, "one with God again." All of us do our little deeds, but he's sort of like a really big chunk of sparks all healed up and he'll sweep those last little pieces together and finally heal and perfect the world.

There are descriptions of how this will happen from the standpoint of our perception in the physical world - first he will attain sovereignty over the Holy Land and during his rule there will gather up the rest of the Jewish people (gathering the sparks), and once all are gathered up, the second, more spiritual phase will occur, which is described in terms much like in the Christian Bible with incredible bounty for all, the dead coming back to life (in Judiasm that's actually a good thing, and they'll be restored to what they were, because for now they've all just been waiting in the ground for the Messiah to finally come), etc., etc. Realize, much of the Christian ideas about all of this grew directly from Jewish tradition. It's only with the Book of Revelation that things got REALLY different.

I found this site which describes Jewish ideas about what Moshiach is all about. Haven't gone through it all, but it might answer a lot of your questions.

Originally posted by Tribe27
I always get a kick out of this, when people say they are part Jewish. You do know it is a religion right?

You are only partially right. Being Jewish is also about being part of an ethnicity and a nation, though until recently a nation completely in exile.

Though in my beliefs I now am an agnostic, I am very culturally tied to my Jewish heritage and identify as Jewish through ethnicity. I live in the U.S. and have never been to Israel, but when I was younger I can say that I also strongly identified was the "nation in exile" aspect of being Jewish, as well. My family is Ashkenazi Jewish, which basically means from Northern and Eastern Europe. We're very mixed racially with Europeans and look more white than the other major Jewish group, the Sephardim, who retain their very Mediterranean/Middle-Eastern features.

When Judiasm was the religion of a single nation, there was no distinction between the religion and that nation of Jews. That sort of arrangement was common in the day. Philistines worshiped their god(s), the other kingdoms all had their own. It's maybe an old sort of mindset, but Jews still see things in those terms (and now have added the ethnic element, which is a more modern concept, I think). All that being said, you can be white, Semitic, black, or even Asian (yes, there are Asian Jews), and there's is still a strong "ethnic" identity as being Jewish. It's really hard to explain, unless you are steeped in it and grew up with that mindset, but for many (not all) Jews it is not really a problem to see members of other races as a the same "ethnicity," so long as they are all Jews. In many of these communities, despite their racial disparity, there have been found to be clear genetic markers that show that there were a lot of family connections, at some point in the past, between them and other groups of Jews.

[edit on 5/12/2010 by LifeInDeath]

reply to post by Theone2000


thanks, i've heard of the Mandelbrot set, was covered in depth in a series endorsed and narrated by Arthur C Clarke.

It's an interesting equation that does prompt theories of the infinite universe, black holes and even just the fractal nature within our earth. Its obvious but important to say that we as humans are fractal, people coming out of people Thanks for the links again.

This is reason and rationalism, theists and the religious offer me nothing.

Interesting way the op put the question.

It's very clear and clean cut to me:

You either believe in the Bible or you don't.
(If you only believe in parts of it then you don't believe in it at all).

You either believe what Jesus said about Himself or you don't.

You are either a "Messianic" Jew or an "Orthodox" Jew.

Jews need the Blood of our Messiah for Salvation just as much as us Gentiles, even after being 'grafted into the fig tree'.

My humble suggestion to all here on ATS is why don't you try reading the Bible for yourselves from cover to cover? The Bible is pretty clear about the special relationship that the Jews have with Jesus and God.

If I have time, I'll break some things down for everyone but I would like to respond to this:

Blue Shift

I don't think that any kind of fudging the language will turn Jesus into a great military leader. Besides, it wasn't too long after Jesus was around the the Romans basically stomped the Jews into the dirt and destroyed their Temple. That's not exactly saving anybody. It pretty much ended the Jew's covenant with God.

Actually, Jesus didn't come to 'save' the Jews from being stomped into the dirt by the Romans as you put it.. The Bible Records:


Luke 19: 41-44 As Jesus drew near to the city of Jerusalem he wept over it saying "If you had known, even you,especially in this your day, the things that make for your peace!! But now they are hidden from your eyes. For the days will come when your enemies will build an embankment around you, surround you and close you in on every side and level you and your children to the ground; and they will not leave in you one stone upon another, because you did not know the time of your visitation."


As far as the Covenant that God has with the Jews? That is a deep debate but I personally don't believe it ended. The Bible is perfectly clear and time and time again, everytime God warned the Jews about their bad behavior and judgement that was about to befall thembecause of it, He, in the same breath stated very clearly that he would bring the Jews back into their own land. Don't believe me? Go read it for yourselves.

The fact that the Jewish state even exist today speaks absolute volumes. Of course that was predicted by the Bible as well.


By the way Blue, Jesus is not coming back as the 'Lamb'.. He's coming back as a 'Lion' and if you know anything about Lions you also know they are incredibly powerful and efficient 'killing' machines: Take a look at Revelations 19:11

11And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth JUDGE AND MAKE WAR. 12His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. 13And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. 14And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. 15And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.


And my favorite:

Romans 14:11

For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, EVERY KNEE SHALL BOW to ME, and EVERY tongue SHALL CONFESS to God.

Of course, by that time it will be too late for many as the condemned will be bowin their knees as well.

As I always say, believe what you want but at your own peril. You may be bowing down to that delusional 'sorcerer/necromancer/mystic' sooner than you think.

reply to post by ViewFromTheStars


Why not drop religion and unite in the fact that we all are here, and we all can love each other, and that a difference in idealogies shouldn't be enough to separate us and progress together in compassion.

I respect your time researching the bible or whatever religious text you think is "correct" and i do believe it gives at least some historical evidence or interpretation regarding clothes, places and races at the time but that is all, whether Jesus was real or not, whether he was son of god or not is completly irrelevant, yes his stories were inspiring, some of them at least, who honestly cares anymore? we have morales, empathy, ethics, why are we fighting each other over who's god is the right god......truth is, no one knows, no one will know, there is no heaven and hell and only fear of it.

anyway, Jesus performed parlour tricks in comparison to what his alleged "father" did. He didn't heal ALL the sick

ADDED: "For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, EVERY KNEE SHALL BOW to ME, and EVERY tongue SHALL CONFESS to God"

Does anyone seriously want to bow down to this god? Live in fear if you want people but realise you have choice, a choice of blind belief or logic

[edit on 12/5/10 by awake_and_aware]

Awake, no disrespect intended. Like I said, believe what you want.

I didn't write any book in the Bible, just shining the light for anyone to see.

The main point I wanted to make was, why can't people just read the Bible for themselves? Most people I run into that are vehement towards it haven't even read it! (Rather amusing).

The Bible may not be 'correct' in your eyes but you might study the prophesies written in it, paying particulary close attention to the timlines in which they were written and the timelines of the fullfillments,I think you will be quite shocked. (That's just scratching the surface) Again, before you insinuate something isn't correct, why don't you read it for yourself?

Thats the million dollar question I have for all you ATSers.


As to the OP? I'm very interested in the views of my Jewish brothers and sisters.

reply to post by LifeInDeath


I couldn't give you a star, but wanted you to know how much I enjoyed reading your posts here and learning from them. Thanks for taking the time to share this information.

To answer you guys on the first page of this forum, we Jews are HERE when you need us. I am Jewish so I will answer your questions OP.

You: If there is a Jew on this board, please tell me what the (In your faith.) true messiah will do!

A: He will bring world peace, bring universal knowlege of God, reign over the whole world, rule for 1,000 years, and beat all swords into plowshares during his FIRST coming. Jesus did not do this and is said to have a second coming.

The true messiah will not need a second coming, unlike Jesus. He will do it all in one lifetime. Sorry OP and Christians.

You: When and where will he come from and what is his agenda?

A: He will be born in Bethlehem and will not have an agenda.

Originally posted by LifeInDeath
You are only partially right. Being Jewish is also about being part of an ethnicity and a nation, though until recently a nation completely in exile.

Though in my beliefs I now am an agnostic, I am very culturally tied to my Jewish heritage and identify as Jewish through ethnicity. I live in the U.S. and have never been to Israel, but when I was younger I can say that I also strongly identified was the "nation in exile" aspect of being Jewish, as well.

This is simply cultural conditioning from your family, which is natural and fine, but there is a difference between religion and heritage. It is just very common for those with Jewish family, because the religion is so culturally deep. My family isn't Jewish but I know how it is, but for you to maybe see it through my eyes, does this sit right with you?
"I am half Muslim, half Irish"

Originally posted by LifeInDeath ...and there's is still a strong "ethnic" identity as being Jewish. It's really hard to explain, unless you are steeped in it and grew up with that mindset,...

This is really the point I was trying to make, that Judaism is a religion, although some may identify with it culturally/socially. I've encountered one too many that have said something across the lines of "I think I'm half Jewish." Which is obviously silly. The only way your ethnicity can be Jewish is if YOU want it to be, if you identify yourself with it. To do that while dismissing the religion itself, is just a contradictory mindset imo.

Originally posted by Rich Man

A: He will bring world peace, bring universal knowlege of God, reign over the whole world, rule for 1,000 years, and beat all swords into plowshares during his FIRST coming. Jesus did not do this and is said to have a second coming.

A: He will be born in Bethlehem and will not have an agenda.

How do you know?

reply to post by Theone2000


Something I find difficult to understand is this:

Jesus Christ was Jewish, yet the Jews repudiated Him, and yet they still say they are the chosen race.

What is that about?

Also, does that mean God is Jewish?

If so, I would say the Jewish are not the chosen race.

I had never heard of them until about a month ago, but there are Messianic Jews, who believe in a combination of Christianity and Judaism.

en.wikipedia.org...

edit: Just out of curiosity (I'm not trying to annoy anyone) if 'jewish' is only to be used to describe a religion, then what term do you use instead for people who are said to be racially Jewish? The closest I can think of is Israeli, but that doesn't quite capture it in my mind.

[edit on 13-5-2010 by DragonsDemesne]

OK, I am saying this as probably Jesus was saying this.


Jesus had a hard time in this world, and He was crucified to save us.

He was probably thinking why save these losers?

I am a Jesus believer.

I believe that Jesus taught us the truth.

The truth is love.

Love yourself and love everyone.

The only way to live is love.

This is why the world will end - because it is only about money.

Originally posted by catwhoknows
reply to post by Theone2000

 

Jesus Christ was Jewish, yet the Jews repudiated Him, and yet they still say they are the chosen race...
What is that about?... I would say the Jewish are not the chosen race.

I am a Christian myself, but I suspect that the true situation is more complicated than that.
I'm willing to believe that God is actively working with both groups of people.
I might, one day, put forward a thread on that theme.I'm busy on another topic at the moment.

When Judas told Jesus, "I know who you are." Did Judas know that Jesus was a hybrid alien????

I think LifeInDeath nailed the answer for the original poster...

Excellent.

[edit on 13-5-2010 by Gazrok]

Originally posted by Tribe27

Originally posted by Rich Man

A: He will bring world peace, bring universal knowlege of God, reign over the whole world, rule for 1,000 years, and beat all swords into plowshares during his FIRST coming. Jesus did not do this and is said to have a second coming.

A: He will be born in Bethlehem and will not have an agenda.

How do you know?

Because it's in the Hebrew Bible. Sorry once again Christians.

Originally posted by Tribe27
This is simply cultural conditioning from your family, which is natural and fine, but there is a difference between religion and heritage. It is just very common for those with Jewish family, because the religion is so culturally deep.

What you are quibbling about are the definitions of cultural identifiers vs. ethnic identifiers. The thing about Judiasm, it was once a single nation of people, and then they went into a broad diaspora, but they kept with them a lot of cultural and even in many cases (but certainly not all) racial traits that got passed along, this is why it can still be seen as an ethnicity, as well as a religion and a culture.

Now, there certainly groups of Jews who were converts on a large scale, so perhaps ethnically they might not identify the same way, or at least once didn't. The Khazars were a kingdom of red-headed people from near the Caspian sea who converted to Judiasm en mass, following their King, in the Middle Ages. A lot of the descendants of these Khazars eventually got mingled in with a lot of the Ashkanazi Jews in Russia, so their ethnic identity of themselves is now as "Jewish," even if they have very little or even any Semitic "blood" in them. I've known converts, too, but I never asked them about if they identify ethnically as Jewish, however usually within a generation or two they marry into families that are ethnically Jewish, and their kids grow up steeped in that culture.

The word Ethnic is defined as: "pertaining to or characteristic of a people, esp. a group (ethnic group) sharing a common and distinctive culture, religion, language, or the like." (Dictionary.com) It's not just a matter of race, it's about common heritage and a point of view about life and the world, etc. Religion, race, all of that can be a part of it, but it's not always the case. For example, there are black Hispanics, white Hispanics and Amer-Indian Hispanics, but they all share Hispanic culture/ethnicity in common. Go to Puerto Rico, Cuba or the Dominican Republic and you'll see what sort of mix I mean, yet all of them identify culturally in the same way.

My family isn't Jewish but I know how it is, but for you to maybe see it through my eyes, does this sit right with you?
"I am half Muslim, half Irish"

Possibly. (I'm part Irish, too, btw.) Do you share, as a Muslim, a cultural affinity to Muslims from other places? Presumably, if you are practicing, you know Arabic. There might be certain traditions you grew up with that come out of your religion that are pretty second nature to who you are, and that will be familiar to any Muslim. It's possible there is a strong Muslim ethnicity, if it is a big enough part of how a person defines himself; a shared heritage with deep familial roots. I honestly don't know, it depends to a great degree on how Muslims define themselves.

I know that many groups of Muslims came via conversion (well, ultimately all, really), so local national cultural ties are possibly still stronger. It simply may just not be the same for Muslims. Judiasm doesn't seek converts, there is no proselytizing, so with some notable exceptions (especially the Khazars, possibly the Queen of Sheba's Kingdom, if she was even real), very few Jews became Jews via conversion. Almost all can (theoretically) trace their lineage back to the original Jews. The Diaspora spread us around, mixed us in with other groups, but the blood connection, and many cultural traits go all the way back to the original Jews, from before the time the Romans nearly wiped us out in 70 CE and sent us packing.

This is really the point I was trying to make, that Judaism is a religion, although some may identify with it culturally/socially. I've encountered one too many that have said something across the lines of "I think I'm half Jewish." Which is obviously silly. The only way your ethnicity can be Jewish is if YOU want it to be, if you identify yourself with it. To do that while dismissing the religion itself, is just a contradictory mindset imo.

It's not contradictory, that's precisely what ethnicity is. Ultimately, it is very much about self-identity, how you perceive and define yourself. But it's not so much what you choose, as what you are steeped in your whole life. What you come out of, what you were surrounded with as a child.

Originally posted by catwhoknows
Jesus Christ was Jewish, yet the Jews repudiated Him, and yet they still say they are the chosen race.

What is that about?

Not sure I understand the question, but Jews don't believe he was the Messiah or holy in anyway. They see him as a false Messiah, something there have been a lot of in Jewish history (both before Jesus and after). To Jews, Jesus just got it really wrong and was, essentially, an impious blasphemer for going against the word of God and trying to claim Messiahood. Their view on Jesus doesn't change their view of their own relationship towards God in any way. Jesus is not spoken of too kindly in the Talmud. At the time it happened, the Jesus incident was just another in a string of very similar incidents with other false Messiahs that kept happening to the Jews for years.

Also, does that mean God is Jewish?

God is God, the Jews follow God. Other people might follow God, too, but Jews would say, 'they're doing it the wrong way. They're welcome to convert to our way if they want, but it's none of our business to say they should or shouldn't.'

Judiasm was probably not always Monotheistic. Careful reading of the original texts of the bible suggest that early Jews believed other gods existed, but that they followed one particular god called YHWH (Yaweh/Jehovah/etc.). This God "CHOSE" the Jews as his followers, via Abraham. Over time, the theology changed, and Jews came to believe they were the only people properly worshiping the one and only true God, and everyone else was just lost and possibly even soulless inside. (Mind you, this was still Biblical times, so those soulless were peoples like the Philistines, the Romans, the Greeks, the Hittites etc.) Probably 95% of modern Jews don't see things that way, but some ultra-Orthodox groups do. Some of the most extreme ultra-Orthodox don't even think other groups of less pious Jews are true Jews. We're just not "Jewey" enough, I guess.

Originally posted by DragonsDemesne
I had never heard of them until about a month ago, but there are Messianic Jews, who believe in a combination of Christianity and Judaism.

en.wikipedia.org...

I've known some Messianic Jews, (not to be confused with Jews for Jesus, who are essentially a cult). Messianic Jews believe Jesus was the Messiah, but they keep to Jewish religious ritual traditions. Sabbath is Friday night, through Saturday to sundown. They study and pray in Hebrew and keep to the "Old Testament"/Jewish Bible traditions in most of their worship. I think what they practice is probably much closer to what the early Christians - those who came right after Jesus - were doing. A lot of the changes in Christianity came as the religion spread through Greece and Roman territories, and as that faith started assimilating people who were originally pagans.

I think Messianic Jews would tell you they are closer to some sort of "true" version of Christianity, as theirs best approximates they way Jesus himself, and his immediate disciples, would have worshiped. I think Christians would point to the things (I believe) Paul said about how everything is different now, it's a new Covenant with God.

edit: Just out of curiosity (I'm not trying to annoy anyone) if 'jewish' is only to be used to describe a religion, then what term do you use instead for people who are said to be racially Jewish? The closest I can think of is Israeli, but that doesn't quite capture it in my mind.

Saying "racially" Jewish is to me problematic, though may Jews do use the terminology. If we're talking genetic heritage, there's a big mix of everything from pale white Europeans with red hair, to Asian, to Middle-Eastern/Semitic, to blacks. Most do have some sort of Semitic blood, if only a trace, essentially the same as Arabic people.

There is a tribe way down in South Africa who long believed they were one of the "Lost Tribes" of Israel, and held a tradition that they emigrated all the way down from Israel thousands of years ago. They are Christians now, but in recent years they have been rediscovering Jewish traditions as well. Recently, genetic testing was done on them and it was found they have genetic markers that are only found among Middle Eastern Jews, so this and some other pieces of evidence actually proved their legends of being descended from ancient Jews are probably true. Looking at them they are racially obviously very dark skinned black, but they do have Semitic blood, as well, it turns out. Race is a tricky thing because we're all just humans in the end.

[edit on 5/13/2010 by LifeInDeath]