This is why religious believers should pay very close attention to evolution.

Originally posted by Titen-Sxull
reply to post by Loken68

 

I'm done.
There is truly no defeating the mind closed by religion. Show them all the evidence in the world and they still believe a magical being from Heaven made men from dirt and women from ribs...

[edit on 15-5-2010 by Titen-Sxull]

I've been done.
There is truly no defeating the mind "opened" by religion. You showed me bunked science that is flawed,. And yes I still believe in a being in Heaven that created men from dirt and a woman from a rib.

Ever wonder why Humans and apes share common dna and genes. Actually it's very simple. We were all created from the same source, "Dirt".

And this brings an end to my input into this thread. The argument was good but in truth flawed science will never stand in the face of properly researched study. This is the era of copy and paste scientist in which anyone can be a professional. I've answered most critics with sound reasoning without adding too much "religion". Sort of like winning on the opponents home field. All the answers to the creation of this Natural world and it's contents can still be found and explained in the 1611 KJV.

[edit on 15-5-2010 by Loken68]

not related to evolution, but an example of what advanced science could potentially do if needed. it reminds me of a few verses in genesis

and god said:


let there be tea.



[edit on 15-5-2010 by undo]

reply to post by Titen-Sxull


Great post. I would agree that to understand anything within scripture you have to use the scientific knowledge being gathered. Because nothing can just appear out of nowhere. There is always a cause to everything and it can be explained by studying reality, like evolution, biology and other science.

I am learning a lot just be reading these posts. Thanks.

Here is a thought, a monkey in the wrench if you will.

If God has to speak these commands, is he really God? Why doesn't he just make it happen? Commanding something is like he is using spells, like magic, magic was forbidden wasn't it? God doesn't need spells, he's God right? Also, who is he talking too? Does God speak these commands only for himself to hear? Does he need reassurance that he can do them? Otherwise, why does he need to speak them? Why not just make them happen?

If you are going to take scripture literally, then you have to take it all literally. I can't get past the talking snake, the talking bush, the angels sent to murder, and destroy cities, kill children, rape, burn etc. Look at the world today, if you ask me it was God who started this whole thing, did he think once he exposed us to such atrocities it would simply stop? If God created this world, free will for humans or not, he screwed up, and I won't follow any such "God". EPIC FAIL.

BTW I'm an atheist.

I also saw someone say "it's been proven Jesus was a real person". Really? Who proved it, I have heard no such thing, funny how so many historians who lived in that time period/area never wrote about him.

[edit on 15-5-2010 by Metal Head]

[edit on 15-5-2010 by Metal Head]

reply to post by Metal Head


no, i don't have to take it all literally. that's not how they wrote back then. they always combined metaphor and literal symbols into the texts .even the egyptians, akkadians, sumerians, chinese (who is the president of the four mountains?) and so on. there's no special YOU MAY NOT DO THIS interpretation of the bible. only what people such as yourself try to enforce upon everyone. i will read it how i want to, is that understood?

Originally posted by Metal Head
Here is a thought, a monkey in the wrench if you will.

If God has to speak these commands, is he really God? Why doesn't he just make it happen? Commanding something is like he is using spells, like magic, magic was forbidden wasn't it? God doesn't need spells, he's God right? Also, who is he talking too? Does God speak these commands only for himself to hear? Does he need reassurance that he can do them? Otherwise, why does he need to speak them? Why not just make them happen?

If you are going to take scripture literally, then you have to take it all literally. I can't get past the talking snake, the talking bush, the angels sent to murder, and destroy cities, kill children, rape, burn etc. Look at the world today, if you ask me it was God who started this whole thing, did he think once he exposed us to such atrocities it would simply stop? If God created this world, free will for humans or not, he screwed up, and I won't follow any such "God". EPIC FAIL.

BTW I'm an atheist.

I also saw someone say "it's been proven Jesus was a real person". Really? Who proved it, I have heard no such thing, funny how so many historians who lived in that time period/area never wrote about him.

[edit on 15-5-2010 by Metal Head]

[edit on 15-5-2010 by Metal Head]

You are onto something with this.

Why would God be giving commands?

Genesis is a vision given to Moses spiritually. I dont believe God said to him self or to Moses: Let there be. God doesn't have a shape or a mouth to speak with. The creation was put in Moses head some how, but not verbally.

To a common man, i would think Moses visions about the creation would seam like, plain philosophy or pseudoscience if you like.

If Moses did a post on ATS about he's visions to day. I dont think he would get much applause. I dont even think any of the hardcore believers would put much faith in his testimony either. But just imagine this news at the time of Moses, when everyone practically believed in a God of some sort.

reply to post by spy66


moses was raised an egyptian. the egyptians had living gods (pharaohs).
they called them things like LORD. scary ain't it?

Originally posted by undo
reply to post by spy66

 

moses was raised an egyptian. the egyptians had living gods (pharaohs).
they called them things like LORD. scary ain't it?

Exactly

Moses visions would be more acceptable by people as truth in those days.

Genesis chapter one is actually very well thought out. If you add science into it, it is actually explainable, and it also adds up.

But Genesis also have a side step. There are findings and writings that can explain Genesis chapter one as a totally different event as well. Like the event you have mentioned. I found the story about Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden very intriguing.

reply to post by spy66


the god in the burning bush chapter comes from the word ELOHIM, which is plural and means "spirits" or "gods"

some have explained it that the rest of the tenses in the verse, can denote whether the gods in question are a gang of gods, or a figure head of a gang of gods, like the leader of the divine council, for example. i haven't verified the tenses of elohim in the burning bush passages so i dunno if it's more or just one as supreme lord.

the holy ground concept, removing shoes and so forth, may have something to do with static electricity. i have to look into that further. to me it sounds like an energy field of some kind. to translators the word for glowing or brightness was almost always translated fire or fiery. we have to remember the people witnessing these things are using words available to them at the time, and so are the translators.

ARK OF THE COVENANT - ELECTRICAL
nephiliman.com...

reply to post by spy66


spy66 and metal head - I'll just make this as simple as I can, I'll try to explain it as clear as I can so that you will not think I'm talking in "codes":
Now, why the command "Let the / there..." as if Jehovah God was commanding someone to do something?
Well, because HE was! God was commanding someone! Who was this person?

It is no other than His beloved only-begotten Son, known to us as Jesus Christ. Yes, God was commanding His son Jesus to "Let there be...".

How could this be?

Consider the following verses:

Back in Gen 1:26 "And God went on to say: “Let us make man in our image, according to our likeness, and let them have in subjection the fish of the sea and the flying creatures of the heavens and the domestic animals and all the earth and every moving animal that is moving upon the earth.”

Did you notice the word turns to a personal pronoun "LET US" instead of "LET THE / THERE BE" as in verses 3-24. So clearly he was talking to someone.

Next question I'm sure you will ask is: How do we know that this was Jesus?

For the simple fact that Jesus was given the power and task to "create" all things "through/by" him:

Notice these verses: Colosians 1:15-17 (NLT)

Christ is the visible image of the invisible God. He existed before God made anything at all and is supreme over all creation.
Christ is the one through whom God created everything in heaven and earth. He made the things we can see and the things we can't see--kings, kingdoms, rulers, and authorities. Everything has been created through him and for him.
He existed before everything else began, and he holds all creation together

At Proverbs 8:30 - he was referred to as an "architect "(KJV) or as a "master workman" (RSV)"

Verse 22 says that "The LORD formed me from the beginning, before he created anything else" (KJV).

Thus we can understand why Jesus was referred to as "the beginning of the creation of God" (Rev 3:14).

That is ALSO why he is the only person in all creation that is called "only-begotten son" of God because he is direct creation by God.

The rest of creation (or all other things) were created by means of him and for him.

John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

Even though Jesus was used by Jehovah God to create things - he never claimed to be the Creator or co-Creator, thus at Matthew 19:4-6 Jesus himself credited God wiht the creation - as do all of the scriptures.

Btw, do you believe in the Lord Jesus Christ? Do you accept him as the savior from Jehovah God?

And Metal Head - without any reasonable doubt YES - Jesus is a REAL Person. I will show you the proof in the thread that I'm preparing. Hope to see you disprove it.

Cylater

reply to post by Titen-Sxull

That's a pretty cool theory

It also is not original. It is 'just' a reworking of the Greek Prometheus myth.

Of course, the Garden of Eden myth is a parallel version of that too.

The Wikipedia article on Prometheus has a good (but not exhaustive) list of similar myths in a dozen or so traditions.

My point is only that we don't really need to find 'new' examples of stealing knowledge from the gods. There are many, many, examples already in existence for thousands of years, and each one is more interesting than the last.

The story is, in Jungian terms, an archetype, central to human consciousness, part of what makes us human, an ancient rumination on the exact moment in time when 'we' became more than an animal.

reply to post by Loken68

Darwin introduced his Theory of Evolution in 1859; it became generally accepted worldwide by scientists during the 1930s. That is a full lifetime ago.

Wrong. By the 1930's Darwinism had been REPLACED by the "Modern Evolutionary Systhesis". Yes that is a full lifetime that Biologists have not been "Darwinists".

It would help your argument if you would lift it out of the 18th century.

... Yet scientists have never successfully quantified it, nor produced a working mathematical formula based on the Theory of Evolution.

That statement needs a whole lot of explaining from you. Biology is not a mathematical formula. It is a chemical process, more akin to computer algorithms than to mathematical formulas.

Mathematical formulas just don't enter into it, though there are some aspects that can have light shed on them using statistical formulas.

It is curious that you are trying to hoe this particular row, however. Mathematical formulas have absolute proofs, Life Science theories don't - and this is a major flaw in the conceptual mindspace of the anti-science community.

Originally posted by Loken68
I've been done.
There is truly no defeating the mind "opened" by religion. You showed me bunked science that is flawed,. And yes I still believe in a being in Heaven that created men from dirt and a woman from a rib.

Of course you would reject bunk and flawed junk science right? Who would not? You only want good, proven, real science, right? The kind of science that proves a god? I am sure anyone that dismisses flawed science only relies on the best and most accurate of sciences, right?

Ever wonder why Humans and apes share common dna and genes. Actually it's very simple. We were all created from the same source, "Dirt".

Humans and apes share DNA with dirt? So, about that flawed science versus ...?

That is awesome. I love it when Evolution is dismissed because the science is bad and then the follow up is a gem like that.

Originally posted by undo
the god in the burning bush chapter comes from the word ELOHIM, which is plural and means "spirits" or "gods"

some have explained it that the rest of the tenses in the verse, can denote whether the gods in question are a gang of gods, or a figure head of a gang of gods, like the leader of the divine council, for example. i haven't verified the tenses of elohim in the burning bush passages so i dunno if it's more or just one as supreme lord.

Hey, interesting point - I'd like to ask a question, given the OPs grace, as I don't want this to derail the thread at all.

How does the word Elohim sit when compared to Legion? I mean, is Elohim our current translation/pronunciation of a biblical word that was pronounced differently at the time and how does this compare to the word Legion?

U2U me if you think it's irrelevant to this thread, I'd be very interested to know.

reply to post by jokei


oh did you read heiser's paper on the word ELOHIM? i don't think that question can be reasonably answered without understanding the backdrop of the divine council. you can read the other texts he wrote on the subject which goes hand in hand with the WHAT's AN ELOHIM ANYWAY? paper.

INTRODUCTION TO THE DIVINE COUNCIL
www.thedivinecouncil.com...

THE DIVINE COUNCIL
www.thedivinecouncil.com...

WHAT'S AN ELOHIM ANYWAY?
www.thedivinecouncil.com...

personally, i don't think the phrase elohim would be used to describe legion, even though legion is described as spirits. there's a demarcation between a divine spirit and a spirit of a fallen entity. the theory goes that the hybrid humans created prior to the black sea flood, otherwise known as nephilim, were neither human nor god, and as a result their bodies were unresurrectable.

one such character was gilgamesh, who was described as two thirds god. he went in search of immortality because he knew his flesh was unresurrectable (truly mortal). since everyone's body is mortal, this sounds a bit confusing in the context of scripture, but the premise is that even one piece of human dna is a holographic library of your entire body and its memory storage, which apparently is different in a nephilim for whatever reason. so all that's needed is just one piece. there's also the possibility that it is not only holographic but transmittable via quantum entanglement or some such, in which case, there's an exact copy of every humans dna somewhere else in the heavens.

anyway, the nephilim spirits were left to wander, in search of bodies to inhabit, which resulted in a sort of body snatching, biblical texts refer to as demonic possession. humans and animals could be inhabited by either the divine spirit of god, or the demonic spirits of the "undead" or "unresurrectable." the divine spirit allows the inhabited individual to retain full control over their lives and will, and only acts as a teaching guide or a channel to understanding divine things. the demonic spirit attempts to over throw the thoughts and will of the person so inhabited, which theoretically, attempts a rewrite of their dna as well so the quantum connection is severed. not sure on that one though, as that's just my theory on how the entire thing started with the adam being created in the images of the gods

so to answer your question (lol), no, i don't think legion is elohim specifically, although legion is spirits and elohim are spirits, and even applied as such to the dearly departed, angels and demons in the old testament. i think the real indicator is the identity of the spirit in question. and learning how to differentiate between a good spirit and a bad spirit. if that makes sense? perhaps it would be better to put it this way: demonic spirits are elohim in that they dwell on the spiritual plane (as heiser points out, elohim was more of a "plane of existence" word as contrasted to this 3d dimension), but they are not all gods, even though they share the same plane of existence in common, that's where the similarity ends.



[edit on 18-5-2010 by undo]

Originally posted by Metal Head
Here is a thought, a monkey in the wrench if you will.

If God has to speak these commands, is he really God? Why doesn't he just make it happen? Commanding something is like he is using spells, like magic, magic was forbidden wasn't it? God doesn't need spells, he's God right? Also, who is he talking too? Does God speak these commands only for himself to hear? Does he need reassurance that he can do them? Otherwise, why does he need to speak them? Why not just make them happen?

If you are going to take scripture literally, then you have to take it all literally. I can't get past the talking snake, the talking bush, the angels sent to murder, and destroy cities, kill children, rape, burn etc. Look at the world today, if you ask me it was God who started this whole thing, did he think once he exposed us to such atrocities it would simply stop? If God created this world, free will for humans or not, he screwed up, and I won't follow any such "God". EPIC FAIL.

BTW I'm an atheist.

I also saw someone say "it's been proven Jesus was a real person". Really? Who proved it, I have heard no such thing, funny how so many historians who lived in that time period/area never wrote about him.

[edit on 15-5-2010 by Metal Head]

[edit on 15-5-2010 by Metal Head]

what? what angels were sent to kill children and rape???? please give me the scriptures for these!

know one wrote about Jesus??? JOHN was an eye witness! many roman manuscripts RECOUNT Jesus Crucifixion before you start throwing silly posts willy nilly please think before you type

Good Day

Originally posted by Metal Head
Here is a thought, a monkey in the wrench if you will.

If God has to speak these commands, is he really God? Why doesn't he just make it happen? Commanding something is like he is using spells, like magic, magic was forbidden wasn't it? God doesn't need spells, he's God right? Also, who is he talking too? Does God speak these commands only for himself to hear? Does he need reassurance that he can do them? Otherwise, why does he need to speak them? Why not just make them happen?

If you are going to take scripture literally, then you have to take it all literally. I can't get past the talking snake, the talking bush, the angels sent to murder, and destroy cities, kill children, rape, burn etc. Look at the world today, if you ask me it was God who started this whole thing, did he think once he exposed us to such atrocities it would simply stop? If God created this world, free will for humans or not, he screwed up, and I won't follow any such "God". EPIC FAIL.

BTW I'm an atheist.

I also saw someone say "it's been proven Jesus was a real person". Really? Who proved it, I have heard no such thing, funny how so many historians who lived in that time period/area never wrote about him.

[edit on 15-5-2010 by Metal Head]

[edit on 15-5-2010 by Metal Head]

You haven't seen anything yet

[edit on 18-5-2010 by Loken68]

Originally posted by rnaa
reply to post by Loken68

 

... Yet scientists have never successfully quantified it, nor produced a working mathematical formula based on the Theory of Evolution.

That statement needs a whole lot of explaining from you. Biology is not a mathematical formula. It is a chemical process, more akin to computer algorithms than to mathematical formulas.

Mathematical formulas just don't enter into it, though there are some aspects that can have light shed on them using statistical formulas.

It is curious that you are trying to hoe this particular row, however. Mathematical formulas have absolute proofs, Life Science theories don't - and this is a major flaw in the conceptual mindspace of the anti-science community.

Show me resource's that say mathematical formulas just don't enter into proving evolution. I guarantee that when you do you will copy and paste from sites that are pro-atheist pro evolution. Show me neutral science, you can't.

Yours is the same science that that the "Global Warming" scientist have tried to fool the world with. As a matter of fact most of the science involving evolution is coming from the same camp's.

We all know why evolution scientist move away from proving their hypothesis through mathematical formulas. Because it can't be done. In the laws of science that in itself makes it "just a guess".

However like golbal warming, with the correct amount of dollars poured into it and enough corrupt scientist it becomes law. No matter how wrong and how many good scientist are fired or lose funding. Sort of like congressmen who stand up for our rights against corruption and try to lead us on the proper path's are drummed out of office.

Evolutionist and Atheist will not listen to reason. Simply because they do not want God in their live's. I have no problem with that except when debating their stance they see no other course of action except to go on the attack. I watched your number one evangelist, Richard Dawkins,a man who claims to be rooted in science scream at the top of his lungs like a little girl in a room full of pedophiles when confronted with the truth. Instead of using scientific mathematical formula he went on the attack using vulgar personel language. Even the moderator "a dean at the college and pro-evolutionist" was offended enough to stop the debate.