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Westall UFO incident - New documentary
page: 4share:
reply to post by Nanzan
Thank you so much for coming here Shane, it's a privelage to have you here and share your experience in creating the documentary!. I thought it was a well thought out watch, a lot of the documentaries we see here are much more sensationalist and not enough content. I know in your piece you said you would like to see feel and measure some sort of physical proof but in your opinion what's your take on the case?
October
Thank you so much for coming here Shane, it's a privelage to have you here and share your experience in creating the documentary!. I thought it was a well thought out watch, a lot of the documentaries we see here are much more sensationalist and not enough content. I know in your piece you said you would like to see feel and measure some sort of physical proof but in your opinion what's your take on the case?
October
reply to post by Nanzan
Welcome to ATS.
It is good to have the researchers of presented data come on and talk about their experience during their research. It helps put a “face” to the material.
I would like to know what you personally think and believe in regards to the case.
Welcome to ATS.
It is good to have the researchers of presented data come on and talk about their experience during their research. It helps put a “face” to the material.
I would like to know what you personally think and believe in regards to the case.
reply to post by Nanzan
Welcome to ATS Shane and do excuse my scepticism. Over recent years the UFO field has been polluted with fraudsters and charlatans such as Stephen Greer, Ray Santilli, Bashar and James Gilliland to name but a few so I have to be thoroughly convinced before I take any claim seriously no matter how elaborate and convincing it may first appear.
I have before me a copy of Flying Saucer Review from 1987 and the cover story is Bill Chalker’s “The Bent Headlight Beams Case” which featured in your documentary. Originally written in 1984 it is the Ron Sullivan incident that occurred on April 4 1966. It seems that at the time of writing Bill Chalker was unaware of the Westall incident as it would surely have been referenced had he known of it. From a link above Chalker’s book The Oz Files (1996) apparently referred to the case.
Do you know of any other published references to the incident that fall between the 1966 newspaper reports and the 1996 Oz Files book?
If your documentary is accurate and people’s recollections haven’t been contaminated and distorted by 40 years of popular culture I’d put this case on a higher significance than Roswell.
For your information a similar incident happened in the UK on February 4, 1977 in which a UFO landed close to Broad Haven school in Dyfed, Wales, and was witnessed by numerous pupils. The craft drawn by one of the witnesses is almost identical to the Westall object.
cheers
Welcome to ATS Shane and do excuse my scepticism. Over recent years the UFO field has been polluted with fraudsters and charlatans such as Stephen Greer, Ray Santilli, Bashar and James Gilliland to name but a few so I have to be thoroughly convinced before I take any claim seriously no matter how elaborate and convincing it may first appear.
I have before me a copy of Flying Saucer Review from 1987 and the cover story is Bill Chalker’s “The Bent Headlight Beams Case” which featured in your documentary. Originally written in 1984 it is the Ron Sullivan incident that occurred on April 4 1966. It seems that at the time of writing Bill Chalker was unaware of the Westall incident as it would surely have been referenced had he known of it. From a link above Chalker’s book The Oz Files (1996) apparently referred to the case.
Do you know of any other published references to the incident that fall between the 1966 newspaper reports and the 1996 Oz Files book?
If your documentary is accurate and people’s recollections haven’t been contaminated and distorted by 40 years of popular culture I’d put this case on a higher significance than Roswell.
For your information a similar incident happened in the UK on February 4, 1977 in which a UFO landed close to Broad Haven school in Dyfed, Wales, and was witnessed by numerous pupils. The craft drawn by one of the witnesses is almost identical to the Westall object.
cheers
reply to post by October
If you are still open to a "nuts & bolts" explanation then I suggest you read Paul R Hill's book if you haven't already. It should answer that question for you.
S&F for the OP- I just noticed you started this thread a couple months ago and I had missed it. Thanks,
The thing i found most uncanny was the description of the witnesses saying the the disk rose in the air then turned on it's side before speeding off, which seems to be something that is reported often when witnessing these type of craft.
If you are still open to a "nuts & bolts" explanation then I suggest you read Paul R Hill's book if you haven't already. It should answer that question for you.
S&F for the OP- I just noticed you started this thread a couple months ago and I had missed it. Thanks,
reply to post by InfaRedMan
A boom is usually not reported with UFOs. I wonder if the Australian military scrambled a jet to intercept the object..? I'm not sure the Aussies had supersonic capability in 1966... but while I'm typing this I glanced at wiki and they did: Dassault Mirage III
The witness ran and got a carpenter who was working on
the house. They heard a boom similar like a sonic boom seconds later.
A boom is usually not reported with UFOs. I wonder if the Australian military scrambled a jet to intercept the object..? I'm not sure the Aussies had supersonic capability in 1966... but while I'm typing this I glanced at wiki and they did: Dassault Mirage III
Hello guys,
I,m just watching the documentary which was embedded by gortex, brill i have to say.
On the video 3/5 the Military man said that the clothes worn by the military looking men could not have been Australian or British but could well have been American Military.
This just got me thinking................was pine gap active in 1966????
Pine gap is a mystery USA secret base in the middle of Oz not far from Alice springs and is clouded in alleged ufo sightings!
I know its hundreds of miles away from Melbourne.
Any thought that there may be a possible link to this story?
Albert
I,m just watching the documentary which was embedded by gortex, brill i have to say.
On the video 3/5 the Military man said that the clothes worn by the military looking men could not have been Australian or British but could well have been American Military.
This just got me thinking................was pine gap active in 1966????
Pine gap is a mystery USA secret base in the middle of Oz not far from Alice springs and is clouded in alleged ufo sightings!
I know its hundreds of miles away from Melbourne.
Any thought that there may be a possible link to this story?
Albert
Thank you very much Shane for accepting my invitation.
The more widespread this case becomes the higher the chances of solving it.
Im looking forward to any extra info you can share with us.
Welcome to ATS.
The more widespread this case becomes the higher the chances of solving it.
Im looking forward to any extra info you can share with us.
Welcome to ATS.
reply to post by torsion
Hi Torsion,
Regarding your question about articles on the Westall incident, this is what I am aware of from the public record:
In 1966, apart from the two front-page articles by Des Carroll, and the two columns by Dave Oakley, in "The Dandenong Journal" (with a couple of associated letters to the editor), and the small story in "The Age", from the time of the sighting, and then in the journal of the Victorian Flying Saucer Research Society "The Australian Flying Saucer Review", there is also a mention in a larger article about UFOs in the 8 September, 1966 edition of "Australasian Post", which draws almost entirely on the earlier "Review" article.
Very strangely, there was no mention of the story in the main tabloid newspaper in Melbourne at the time, called "The Sun News Pictorial" - although they did publish a cartoon about a flying saucer in the next day's edition!
A Westall High School student's account also appeared in an edition (Term 1, 1967) of "The Clayton Calendar", the magazine of Brown's Road State School (now called Clayton Primary School), where that student had previously attended. The primary school teacher, a Mr Adrian Waugh, who organised the article, got into a lot of trouble for publishing it (the article's author has told me)!
Next is an article in the "Westernport Bay News" of around 19 April, 1967, penned by Paul Norman, of the VFSRS. Next was an article by John Hallows in "The Australian" on 15 May, 1968 which, again, was dealing with the larger question of UFOs, and looks at Westall as an example.
The next references I am aware of are those by newspaper journalist and author John Pinkney, in the occasional newspaper article, which rely heavily on conversations with members of the Victorian UFO Research Society. These were also published in his 2000 book "A Paranormal File". There is also another reference to the Westall story in the VUFORS's "Australian UFO Bulletin", December edition.
Lastly, in her 2003 book "Firestorm: Dr James E. McDonald's Fight for UFO Science" Ann Druffel reproduces the conversation between James McDonald and Andrew Greenwood from 1967, in which McDonald interviews Greenwood about his sighting at Westall, where he was on the staff of the high school as a science teacher.
Bill Chalker has been aware of the Westall story for a very long time, I am sure and, as you said, wrote at length about it in his book "The Oz Files".
And that's all that I am aware of - from the public record - until I turned up and started my research in 2005. Since then, of course, there have been various newspaper and magazine articles, and radio and TV interviews. And, naturally, a lot of material posted to various Internet sites, such as this one, and my own, and others.
It is frustrating, of course, that there are not more primary investigative accounts from the time, or closer to the time. The story was certainly swept under the carpet, it seems, and discussion about it was simply not encouraged. Other people, of course, just forgot about it, and moved on, as people do. Australian history, local history anywhere, certainly UFO history, is of course littered with such stories that are lost - or almost lost - to the sands of time.
Hope this helps.
Cheers.
Shane.
Hi Torsion,
Regarding your question about articles on the Westall incident, this is what I am aware of from the public record:
In 1966, apart from the two front-page articles by Des Carroll, and the two columns by Dave Oakley, in "The Dandenong Journal" (with a couple of associated letters to the editor), and the small story in "The Age", from the time of the sighting, and then in the journal of the Victorian Flying Saucer Research Society "The Australian Flying Saucer Review", there is also a mention in a larger article about UFOs in the 8 September, 1966 edition of "Australasian Post", which draws almost entirely on the earlier "Review" article.
Very strangely, there was no mention of the story in the main tabloid newspaper in Melbourne at the time, called "The Sun News Pictorial" - although they did publish a cartoon about a flying saucer in the next day's edition!
A Westall High School student's account also appeared in an edition (Term 1, 1967) of "The Clayton Calendar", the magazine of Brown's Road State School (now called Clayton Primary School), where that student had previously attended. The primary school teacher, a Mr Adrian Waugh, who organised the article, got into a lot of trouble for publishing it (the article's author has told me)!
Next is an article in the "Westernport Bay News" of around 19 April, 1967, penned by Paul Norman, of the VFSRS. Next was an article by John Hallows in "The Australian" on 15 May, 1968 which, again, was dealing with the larger question of UFOs, and looks at Westall as an example.
The next references I am aware of are those by newspaper journalist and author John Pinkney, in the occasional newspaper article, which rely heavily on conversations with members of the Victorian UFO Research Society. These were also published in his 2000 book "A Paranormal File". There is also another reference to the Westall story in the VUFORS's "Australian UFO Bulletin", December edition.
Lastly, in her 2003 book "Firestorm: Dr James E. McDonald's Fight for UFO Science" Ann Druffel reproduces the conversation between James McDonald and Andrew Greenwood from 1967, in which McDonald interviews Greenwood about his sighting at Westall, where he was on the staff of the high school as a science teacher.
Bill Chalker has been aware of the Westall story for a very long time, I am sure and, as you said, wrote at length about it in his book "The Oz Files".
And that's all that I am aware of - from the public record - until I turned up and started my research in 2005. Since then, of course, there have been various newspaper and magazine articles, and radio and TV interviews. And, naturally, a lot of material posted to various Internet sites, such as this one, and my own, and others.
It is frustrating, of course, that there are not more primary investigative accounts from the time, or closer to the time. The story was certainly swept under the carpet, it seems, and discussion about it was simply not encouraged. Other people, of course, just forgot about it, and moved on, as people do. Australian history, local history anywhere, certainly UFO history, is of course littered with such stories that are lost - or almost lost - to the sands of time.
Hope this helps.
Cheers.
Shane.
reply to post by AlienCarnage
Dear Alien Carnage,
My standard and completely honest answer to your question about what I think Westall was is - I simply do not know.
To expand a little on that, I simply do not know what it was that people saw. I am confident in saying that it seems what people saw - and remember, I have been in touch with 77 people who saw the "flying saucer", including five who saw it on, or very close to the ground - was indeed an unconventional flying craft, of some kind.
It seems completely certain that it was not a conventional aircraft, nor a balloon (meteorological or otherwise), nor anything else prosaic.
It may have been an unusual aircraft of some kind, never seen before - or since - by any of the adult or child witnesses. That the object seemed to fly so well, and rapidly, and silently, and so easily out-fly the nearby conventional planes - leads one to ask why we don't see the descendent of that model flying around now, 44 years later. How can 1966 aviation technology (military or civil) be better than 2010 aviation technology? You see my problem.
So, none of the witnesses can say for sure what it was (although many have their theories of course), but they can say, and do say, for sure, for them, what it wasn't.
I, for one, believe the witnesses. I can accept that perhaps not every single one of the 77 saucer witnesses and 126 circle witnesses is telling the whole truth, but I haven't yet met a single one of them that I would believe that about. Of course, embellishment and remembering things incorrectly - out of sequence, different dimensions/distances etc - is par for the course for a story 44 years old. However, we are dealing with a very large sample of people here - very large as UFO sightings go anyway.
Hence, the importance of making contact with the good Australians (and perhaps people of another nation?) who were there that day - and following days - in uniform investigating the site. Surely, they know more - well more than me anyway! Let's hope we can still encourage these good people to come forward and share about that they saw all those years ago. After 44 years have elapsed, it is hard to imagine that the secret still needs to be kept.
Cheers,
Shane.
[edit on 3-7-2010 by Nanzan]
Dear Alien Carnage,
My standard and completely honest answer to your question about what I think Westall was is - I simply do not know.
To expand a little on that, I simply do not know what it was that people saw. I am confident in saying that it seems what people saw - and remember, I have been in touch with 77 people who saw the "flying saucer", including five who saw it on, or very close to the ground - was indeed an unconventional flying craft, of some kind.
It seems completely certain that it was not a conventional aircraft, nor a balloon (meteorological or otherwise), nor anything else prosaic.
It may have been an unusual aircraft of some kind, never seen before - or since - by any of the adult or child witnesses. That the object seemed to fly so well, and rapidly, and silently, and so easily out-fly the nearby conventional planes - leads one to ask why we don't see the descendent of that model flying around now, 44 years later. How can 1966 aviation technology (military or civil) be better than 2010 aviation technology? You see my problem.
So, none of the witnesses can say for sure what it was (although many have their theories of course), but they can say, and do say, for sure, for them, what it wasn't.
I, for one, believe the witnesses. I can accept that perhaps not every single one of the 77 saucer witnesses and 126 circle witnesses is telling the whole truth, but I haven't yet met a single one of them that I would believe that about. Of course, embellishment and remembering things incorrectly - out of sequence, different dimensions/distances etc - is par for the course for a story 44 years old. However, we are dealing with a very large sample of people here - very large as UFO sightings go anyway.
Hence, the importance of making contact with the good Australians (and perhaps people of another nation?) who were there that day - and following days - in uniform investigating the site. Surely, they know more - well more than me anyway! Let's hope we can still encourage these good people to come forward and share about that they saw all those years ago. After 44 years have elapsed, it is hard to imagine that the secret still needs to be kept.
Cheers,
Shane.
[edit on 3-7-2010 by Nanzan]
reply to post by Nanzan
It's actually a sad human story, I see pain in some of those witnesses, instead of getting help the children were let down and made to live a life full of questions and confusion, I believe them and I hope that this film can open more doors to the truth behind it but even if it doesn't you have given the witnesses a whole lot more.
Thank you very much and keep us informed..
It's actually a sad human story, I see pain in some of those witnesses, instead of getting help the children were let down and made to live a life full of questions and confusion, I believe them and I hope that this film can open more doors to the truth behind it but even if it doesn't you have given the witnesses a whole lot more.
Thank you very much and keep us informed..
reply to post by Nanzan
Thanks for that lengthy reply, Shane.
A fascinating case that I will be keeping my eye on. I will re-watch the documentary, too, now that you've convinced me it is legit.
One other question. The guy in the documentary who saw the two discs landed in the field showed sketches he had done of the objects. Were these drawing done for the programme (and thus from memory) or what he'd done at the time of the sighting and kept safe for all the intervening years?
cheers
Thanks for that lengthy reply, Shane.
A fascinating case that I will be keeping my eye on. I will re-watch the documentary, too, now that you've convinced me it is legit.
One other question. The guy in the documentary who saw the two discs landed in the field showed sketches he had done of the objects. Were these drawing done for the programme (and thus from memory) or what he'd done at the time of the sighting and kept safe for all the intervening years?
cheers
A profound case, whose importance should not be underestimated. The amount of eye witnesses who clearly remembered seeing multiple metallic flying
saucers maneuvering, landing and taking off, all in a silent, controlled fashion make this incident one of the most compelling stories ever told on
the UFO topic.
The small single engined airplane(s) seen flying overhead and circling to get a better look at the "objects", are key to the story, there is a strong possibility that these were military planes of the type commonly used for reconnaissance and "spotting." That would explain how the military convoy was able to arrive so quickly, they would have been getting vectors from the spotter plane regarding the "objects" location, so the convoy of "classified technology" recovery and protection units would always be nearby in case of a hardware failure causing an unplanned touch down or crash.
Too much time has passed, we have missed the greatest opportunity ever to discover what our Government has in it's top secret hidden technology portfolio. That may have been some ultra black exotic technology test hardware that had silent anti-gravity like capabilities all those long years ago, it boggles the mind to imagine what we have now if this story is true.
If I ever find out that we could have been experiencing an actual "Star Trek" reality for the last twenty years or so, but couldn't because military and corporate "interests" deemed the technology best to remain classified for military use, I will be very angry with our Government. Withholding that kind of mind-blowing information in the name of war and killing would be unforgivable to me. Here we sit on planet Earth struggling to get by during a severe recession and one day we will find out that we could all have been living a fantastic futuristic lifestyle replete with space exploration and discoveries becoming a common place human activity. I want to see National Geographic the Extra solar edition in HD yesterday.
One thing that most of us agree on is that the Military-Industrial Complex has finally manifested itself into our worst possible realizations, the nightmare scenario has occurred, we are experiencing it real time right now. Is it too hard to imagine that our Government while under the "apparent" control of the aforementioned Military-Industrial Complex, could have allowed this to happen? It is plausible, I sure wouldn't be surprised, the evidence in certain cases especially this one, is compelling.
To top it off, the very reasoning behind the cover up is flawed, the sudden influx of this kind of tech would indeed be a shock at first to our current system of working for cash, but the elitists and ultra rich would not have to give up anything, instead all people of the planet could have the exotic, luxurious lifestyles now only enjoyed by the privileged few. The slightest hint of a disrupted power structure no matter how small, sends the powerful few into an automatic defense reflex that precludes common sense and reason. Until and unless something changes radically, the powers in control will be happy to keep things the way they are. (Meanwhile the anti-social plutocrats get to fly God knows where in super cool flying saucers, THAT WE ARE PAYING FOR!)
The small single engined airplane(s) seen flying overhead and circling to get a better look at the "objects", are key to the story, there is a strong possibility that these were military planes of the type commonly used for reconnaissance and "spotting." That would explain how the military convoy was able to arrive so quickly, they would have been getting vectors from the spotter plane regarding the "objects" location, so the convoy of "classified technology" recovery and protection units would always be nearby in case of a hardware failure causing an unplanned touch down or crash.
Too much time has passed, we have missed the greatest opportunity ever to discover what our Government has in it's top secret hidden technology portfolio. That may have been some ultra black exotic technology test hardware that had silent anti-gravity like capabilities all those long years ago, it boggles the mind to imagine what we have now if this story is true.
If I ever find out that we could have been experiencing an actual "Star Trek" reality for the last twenty years or so, but couldn't because military and corporate "interests" deemed the technology best to remain classified for military use, I will be very angry with our Government. Withholding that kind of mind-blowing information in the name of war and killing would be unforgivable to me. Here we sit on planet Earth struggling to get by during a severe recession and one day we will find out that we could all have been living a fantastic futuristic lifestyle replete with space exploration and discoveries becoming a common place human activity. I want to see National Geographic the Extra solar edition in HD yesterday.
One thing that most of us agree on is that the Military-Industrial Complex has finally manifested itself into our worst possible realizations, the nightmare scenario has occurred, we are experiencing it real time right now. Is it too hard to imagine that our Government while under the "apparent" control of the aforementioned Military-Industrial Complex, could have allowed this to happen? It is plausible, I sure wouldn't be surprised, the evidence in certain cases especially this one, is compelling.
To top it off, the very reasoning behind the cover up is flawed, the sudden influx of this kind of tech would indeed be a shock at first to our current system of working for cash, but the elitists and ultra rich would not have to give up anything, instead all people of the planet could have the exotic, luxurious lifestyles now only enjoyed by the privileged few. The slightest hint of a disrupted power structure no matter how small, sends the powerful few into an automatic defense reflex that precludes common sense and reason. Until and unless something changes radically, the powers in control will be happy to keep things the way they are. (Meanwhile the anti-social plutocrats get to fly God knows where in super cool flying saucers, THAT WE ARE PAYING FOR!)
reply to post by franspeakfree
Franspeakfree…..
Oh no…..you’ve thrown me in with those HARD MEN!
How on Earth will I live up to that!
I hope I have already established a collaborative, positive tone on ATS, not to suggest that I’m a pushover for the material from the lunatic fringe!
I can assure you I never ”dismiss” anything without good reason.
I agree…..but I question the scale & the level of coordination involved.
I hope you find the documentary as arresting as I did!
Kind regards
Maybe…maybe not
[edit on 4-7-2010 by Maybe...maybe not]
Franspeakfree…..
Just weedwacker and Phage to go
Oh no…..you’ve thrown me in with those HARD MEN!
How on Earth will I live up to that!
then we can all start working together.
I hope I have already established a collaborative, positive tone on ATS, not to suggest that I’m a pushover for the material from the lunatic fringe!
Keeping an open mind doesn't mean that your brains are going to fall out it just means that you can embrace the subjects with clarity instead of instantly dismissing as such.
I can assure you I never ”dismiss” anything without good reason.
There are numerous instances of cover ups all over the world thats how the conspiracy fire is lit, (No smoke without fire)
I agree…..but I question the scale & the level of coordination involved.
OP- Looking forward to watching the documentary after work, many thanks I have not heard of this incident before, something new always to learn on this site.
I hope you find the documentary as arresting as I did!
Kind regards
Maybe…maybe not
[edit on 4-7-2010 by Maybe...maybe not]
reply to post by torsion
Torsion.....
As another of the Aussie contingent, I can assure you this story has been around here for a long time.
I note you will also find it in books such "Beyond Top Secret" (Timothy Good) & "The Oz Files" (Bill Chalker).
Kind regards
Maybe...maybe not
Torsion.....
My biggest concern was the fact that I'd never heard of this case
As another of the Aussie contingent, I can assure you this story has been around here for a long time.
I note you will also find it in books such "Beyond Top Secret" (Timothy Good) & "The Oz Files" (Bill Chalker).
Kind regards
Maybe...maybe not
Originally posted by InfaRedMan
Was just reading about the Westall Incident at ufoevidence.org and read an interesting side-note on a UFO sighting from 2 days earlier in Balwyn.
THE BALWYN PHOTO ENIGMA
The Balwyn Picture:
InfaRedMan.....
It's all a brain twister.....
And.....
Imagine that guy watching that thing descend towards his back yard.....
"Stone the bloody crows Thelma! It's aliens!"
[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/d4d57c04fa40.jpg[/atsimg]
Cheers mate
Maybe...maybe not
reply to post by Maybe...maybe not
Word is that the sighting a few days earlier was a hoax. The guy who took the pictures was already a member of VFSRS which eventually became VUFORS.
Someone Should Blow Nuns Up... And Those Damn UFO's Too!
IRM
Word is that the sighting a few days earlier was a hoax. The guy who took the pictures was already a member of VFSRS which eventually became VUFORS.
The US
organisation, APRO, had their photo consultant examine the photo. Dr.
B.R. Frieden, Professor of Optical Sciences at the University of
Arizona, reported finding "a jagged line of discontinuity running
across the centre of the photo, through the cloud field, which
suggests that there are actually 2 separate photos joined together and
rephotographed to make the one." APRO therefore regarded the photo as a possible hoax. The photo also apparently "failed" the GSW (Ground Saucer Watch) computer enhancement technique. Although aware of these results, Brown still maintains the photo is a genuine one.
Someone Should Blow Nuns Up... And Those Damn UFO's Too!
IRM
reply to post by InfaRedMan
InfraRedMan.....
What a shame.....
Cheers mate
Maybe...maybe not
InfraRedMan.....
Word is that the sighting a few days earlier was a hoax.
What a shame.....
Cheers mate
Maybe...maybe not
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