Questions about Satan

I have a few questions i want to discuss here. So please bare with me and give me some good input and some good debate..


First off the devil can act as a child of light or as some say a wolf in sheeps clothing.. And some people have this big monster who forces people to bow down and worship him. Here is where im having a issue. If the Devil could make himself a child of light couldnt he use that to gain followers by recruting soe people for jesus and then making them have doubt of jesus as opposed to just doing it directly. Seems like he could plant a seed of doubt. Most people think the opposite so i wonder if he is doing this? And if he should be doing all this then how are we gonna know whos good and evil if the devil can be both? Who aint to say that someone you know thats a christian is really being used by the devil to turn people against god?


Also why did the devil get thrown to earth when god could simply just chained up the devil in heaven or in some other place. Why let the devil take over when he could be restrained. Why let the devil run the earth it took you 6 days to build?



And why did god even create the devil if he knew the devil would turn against him? Why do all that for?



Before ya jump on me and give me bible verses yes i am a aithest im just trying to undertstand this whole devil thing more. And i seen someone state that only aithiest makes these threads. I think this is because aithiest think outside the box and question life more.. I mean shouldnt we all question gods word aint it only human to do so. If we dont question how can we really learn anything? If your doing what youre being told to do you wont ever question anything and thats why most of these topics are started by aithests..

[edit on 8-5-2010 by gerg357]

Because its the balance of good and evil. when god made humans, he saw we gave in to temptation so easliy nad always conuured up false gods to worship. so those that chose to stay on the rightous path, following abd believing in god, thats how you get into heaven.
Those that choose to corrupt, murder, lie, steel, defy the 10 commandments, as an example, is something lucifer would do, so those that belive and shoose what the devil would do, will remain with him.
that is why you have a free spirit. its yuor choice to make, but he hardest task, is at the moment of truth, do a bad deed, or realize real quick its wrong, and stay on the right path

reply to post by gerg357


This doco was recently screened here in Australia.

atheistmovies.blogspot.com...

It shows through great historical research that the devil as we know him today has become quite corrupted and different from the original versions which was a completely different beast.

It traces things like what he allegedly looks like to what power he actually has.

A must see for anyone with questions like yours.

I'll make this one as simple as possible.

Christianity started out as a Jewish sekt. Christ was a Jew.

The whole first part of the bible is the story of the Jews.

Jewish theology

In Judaism, evil is the result of forsaking God. (Deuteronomy 28:20) Judaism stresses obedience to God's laws as written in the Torah (see also Tanakh) and the laws and rituals laid down in the Mishnah and the Talmud.

While some forms of Judaism, do not personify evil in Satan; these instead consider the human heart to be inherently bent toward deceit, although human beings are responsible for their choices, whereas in Judaism, there is no prejudice in one's becoming good or evil at time of birth. In Judaism, Satan is viewed as one who tests us for God rather than one who works against God, and evil, as in the Christian denominations above, is a matter of choice.

“ The One forming light and creating darkness,
Causing well-being and creating calamity;
I am the LORD who does all these. ”

—Isaiah 45:7

The devil as Christianity tells you doesn't exist.

I do believe there is some dark power or force.

If you would of been God would you of done anything different? If your a father ask yourself if you would chose one of your children even if one is bad and the other is not?

If I'd be God I would do exactly the same... Perhaps God didn't plan Satan to turn bad but he did and in the end he might wiser to let him do whatever he wants for awhile, meanwhile people will align themself in their respective camps... and in the end you can't blame God because you have free will to chose which side your in... your the only one to blame because you've been warned in first place...


"From Gospels of Thomas"

(57) Jesus said: The kingdom of the Father is like a man who had [good] seed. His enemy came by night, he sowed a weed among the good seed. The man did not allow them to pull up the weed. He said to them: Lest perhaps you go to pull up the weed, and pull up the wheat with it. For on the day of harvest the weeds will be manifest; they will be pulled up and burned

Originally posted by gerg357

Here is where im having a issue. If the Devil could make himself a child of light couldnt he use that to gain followers by recruting soe people for jesus and then making them have doubt of jesus as opposed to just doing it directly. Seems like he could plant a seed of doubt. Most people think the opposite so i wonder if he is doing this? And if he should be doing all this then how are we gonna know whos good and evil if the devil can be both? Who aint to say that someone you know thats a christian is really being used by the devil to turn people against god?

well, To give my view of this... The current situation is just as you hypothesised, the devil is just like Jesus an angel created by god to serve under him. As I understand Satan or Lucifer actually was quite a prominent figure in the heavens. What we today call the sumerians had the actual situation you described in the above text. The devil took the true way of worship, with its worshippers and tweaked it abit... this resulted in different branches of the original faith just like we have today with the catholics and all the other branched out way of faith's we have today. 'this poses a serious problem if you are deadset on finding the true unaltered way of worship. But the bible actually told of this. "the road to salvation is narrow and only few will find it".

Also why did the devil get thrown to earth when god could simply just chained up the devil in heaven or in some other place. Why let the devil take over when he could be restraingod. Why let the devil run the earth it took you 6 days to build?

This has to do with the big question brought about by the devils actions.. the choice free-will offers. God intended to rule man but satan posed that it was haughty of god to think that man needed and wanted ruling. on the other side the devil showed man they could rule themselves. To resolve this situation god let the devil run rampant on earth to "test man and to divide man into 2 camps, 1 camp would look to themselves for solutions to problems and for governing while the other camp would look up to god for governing since they feel man to be incapable to rule themselves. One thing God never wanted was a pack of slaves. to realise this he needs man to freely chose to follow him.

And why did god even create the devil if he knew the devil would turn against him? Why do all that for?

I'm not sure as to the correct explanation for this part but I thought it had to do with god not actively searching intention. also it is suggested that angels were actually capable of getting things done with god much like how a child will wine until it gets the thing done with their parents what they set out for as long as it is reasonable. Satan questioned man's free-will suggesting the only reason man obeyed god was cause god pampered them, so god allowed Satan to do what he has done...

I think this is because aithiest think outside the box and question life more.. I mean shouldnt we all question gods word aint it only human to do so. If we dont question how can we really learn anything? If your doing what youre being told to do you wont ever question anything and thats why most of these topics are started by aithests..

the bible teaches that god welcomes people like you who critically ponder over these things. He doens't value people who come to church on sunday's to get their sins forgiven just so those people can then again go about their own bussiness. he encourages people to critically search him out (in this maze of different faith's we know today) Also I feel its noteworhty to mention that god doesn't promise eternal life in heaven, instead he promises us life as he intended with adam and eve... an eternal perfect life on this very planet. (at least for most of his true followers)

Hope I've added something of value to the discussion

[edit on 8-5-2010 by faceoff85

[edit on 8-5-2010 by faceoff85]

reply to post by gerg357


I've got a question. As an Atheist do you believe in no form of creation?

I ask this only because I was watching Richard Dawkins talking about how some ancient alien race could have come and seeded us here on earth. So he was saying it was possible that intelligent life put us here, which is what creationist believe. So then I wondered if he has a problem with the idea of a "Creator" or is it just organized religion.

So as an Atheist do you believe in no form of creation?

reply to post by faceoff85


I want to say that I really understand what you say, it's clear and I like it.
I feel the same way more or less.

Way to go

Thanks.

reply to post by Sinter Klaas


hehehe... sinterklaasje kom maar binnen met je knecht.
always good to meet fellow-countrymen

Ha ha What do you know ?

It's a small world after all.

Despite what some believe, God is not a tyrant. He loves us all and gives us choices. Lucifer or Satan or Scratch had a choice..to love and follow God or not. Adam and Eve had a choice. You and I have a choice.

God placed Satan here to give us a choice. God does not want automatons or robots. An example is...

Who do you love more?...the prostitute that goes through the motions for money...or the wife/husband that makes love because they love you...and only you.

Who do you love more?...which relationship means so much?....the partner that is tempted and secumbs or the partner that faces temptation, yet comes home truthful.

God gives us challenges and opportunity everyday...sometimes I succeed, sometimes I fail...we all do. But like a loving father, God let's us try on our own and seek His guidance...own our own...always ready to help or guide...but He won't stand in the way.

Yet, another analogy...

It's Saturday night, and you have a date...you borrow the car. As you get ready to leave, your dad says...no drinking, be careful of the decisions you make with that girl, and no speeeding. What do you do?

Before you leave, your dad knows you are gonna speed, may or may not drink, and pretty sure you are gonna try to score with the girl... but he lets you go anyway. Why?

Cause when you come home, he wants to know he can trust you.. and if he can't, you have to learn, as a young adult, that there are consequences...he can't live your life for you. Just give you a chance...it's up to you.

Same with God. That is why He put Satan here...He loves us, offers us safe haven and a good life, but it is up to us to live life...when we decide to obey him...it makes Him happy.

Pretty simple really. He made man in His image..and His heart. God wants true love, just like us.

reply to post by AlreadyGone


I'm really happy for you you have found peace with your reasoning. Really I am.

My world spreads out way beyond the black and white world I was taught when I was young.
Of course a father deserves obedience but fathers also get to deal with disagreements or even an opposing attitude. In a relationship these would not be impossible obstacles to overcome even when the disagreement is not settled.

The father child explanation is not a good one IMO.

reply to post by Sinter Klaas


would you care to elaborate on why you find the father-son example inadequate?
I find it a good example albeit not entirely complete but it does show how our father is trying to guide us and how us humans tend to respond to that guidance... it also quite adequately shows god's patience with us humans IMO

[edit on 8-5-2010 by faceoff85]


hehehe... you're right. this topic is stranding somewhere completely different from where it began...

[edit on 8-5-2010 by faceoff85]

reply to post by faceoff85


Maybe I should be more complete.
There is nothing wrong with the father, sun idea. Only the Christian vision of this bond doesn't.

If you want to know more we should find a suiting thread or create one. Cause this is going way of topic.

AlreadyGone had a good post up there. I'll give it a go based on the three encounters I'd had with him though I cannot remember the second.

Originally posted by gerg357
If the Devil could make himself a child of light couldnt he use that to gain followers by recruting soe people for jesus and then making them have doubt of jesus as opposed to just doing it directly. Seems like he could plant a seed of doubt. Most people think the opposite so i wonder if he is doing this?

I think every believer (especially before or when they first believe) goes through the doubt of Jesus perhaps being the devil in disguise. I can say though having knowing the devil before Jesus that his 'voice' is a LOT different. You know when the devil is present and you know when he isn't. It is that strong. I've been a believer in Christ for twenty-some years and working for him, so if this is the devils work, he is working against himself because I've been encouraging people to go to God. Even if the devil pops out of Christ's image, I've done way too much for God for it to be any benefit to him.

"If a house is divided against itself, that house cannot stand." - Mark 3:25

Originally posted by gerg357
And if he should be doing all this then how are we gonna know whos good and evil if the devil can be both?

The devil cannot "be good", he can appear as good. Big difference there. It is important then to know the difference between what is good and evil, studying it regularly so that we are not deceived.

Originally posted by gerg357
Who aint to say that someone you know thats a christian is really being used by the devil to turn people against god?

After knowing the devil, I went next to God, who said I needed Christ, and from there asking so many questions was directed to the Bible. I don't believe I'm special or different in this regard and think anyone could go to God first to be sure.

Originally posted by gerg357
Also why did the devil get thrown to earth when god could simply just chained up the devil in heaven or in some other place.

God keeps heaven as holy ground. This is why sin is not allowed to enter either.

Originally posted by gerg357
Why let the devil take over when he could be restrained.

Because we chose the devil, it was our choice. God is letting us have what we wanted to see the problems with this.

Originally posted by gerg357
Why let the devil run the earth it took you 6 days to build?

I don't think God is worried about 6 days as I'm sure he's concerned with us. In the end, he knows what happens to the earth in the end and had always had ultimate say over what occurs.

Originally posted by gerg357
And why did god even create the devil if he knew the devil would turn against him? Why do all that for?

The growth experience. He wants and expects us to learn the difference between right and wrong as well as making good choices. We need to "pick a side" of which we choose his. Why this is important I'm not entirely sure, but there are hints that we'll need this in the distant future for some reason.

Originally posted by gerg357
I think this is because aithiest think outside the box and question life more..

Always question. That's how you find answers...even my Bible says that.

Originally posted by gerg357
I mean shouldnt we all question gods word aint it only human to do so. If we dont question how can we really learn anything?

I agree completely.

Originally posted by gerg357
If your doing what youre being told to do you wont ever question anything and thats why most of these topics are started by aithests..

There's a stereotype that believes Christians never question anything. I'm not sure where it comes from, but I don't think it's nearly as common as non-believers think. I'm an ex-agressive agnostic, so for me it was necessary to find absolutes.

[edit on 8-5-2010 by saint4God]

Originally posted by gerg357
And why did god even create the devil if he knew the devil would turn against him? Why do all that for?

To my mind, if there were an ever present and omniscient god, it would be impossible for this god to create something he/she/it didn't fully understand.

To follow that line of logic then one must assume that if the devil were created by an omniscient god, then the devil is doing exactly what his creator designed him to do. To argue that point is to argue the point that god knows not what he does.

Since it would be impossible for god to create something he didn't understand then one would have to assume that god understands evil in a wider capacity than the evil he created in the devil, unless he created some part of the devil to be equal to or greater than god.

Also, an all powerful god could smash his creation at any time he wishes since there is no more powerful force than god.

The simple conclusion then is that god created the devil to deliver evil as part of his plan and he wants him to continue doing it.

That is, of course, if one were a believer.





[edit on 8-5-2010 by misterscratch]

reply to post by gerg357


These are some of the questions that led to the eventual downfall of my faith but the big one was "Where did evil come from?"

The Bible gives us no real information about where evil comes from in a Universe made by a perfect God. Lucifer just turns to the dark side for no real reason, evil just crops up within him because of his pride... but the reason he was proud was because God was constantly stroking his ego. So why does a perfect God make so many imperfect things and blame and punish those imperfect things when they turn out to be imperfect :

The best tool easily to get people to not believe in the devil is the tv. It has absolutely hypnotised humanity into believing such a thing does not exist.

Without the tv and hollywood, the devil and what it is, would still be very much on the minds of the people.

So yep of course a christian could be doing the devils work, but most of all the tv does.

While the ptb still firmly believe in that entity and i firmly believe the entity we know as the devil is the ruler of this planet. What ever is to be will be and all that.

reply to post by andy1033


I disagree. on that. ( My own opinion )

What makes you believe this ?

I don't watch TV by the way.

Originally posted by Titen-Sxull
reply to post by gerg357

 

These are some of the questions that led to the eventual downfall of my faith but the big one was "Where did evil come from?"

The Bible gives us no real information about where evil comes from in a Universe made by a perfect God. Lucifer just turns to the dark side for no real reason, evil just crops up within him because of his pride... but the reason he was proud was because God was constantly stroking his ego. So why does a perfect God make so many imperfect things and blame and punish those imperfect things when they turn out to be imperfect

:

I have an imperfect and opinion based answer, but I'll answer this question:

What defines good? Isn't the definition of good "not evil?" How do you define light without dark, or good without bad? There is no definition. It's the cosmic balance in things. It's the Yin and Yang, the Light Side and the Dark Side, the good and the evil. Without one, the other does not exist. If there were such a thing as God in the terms of Judeo-Christian religion, he must have been smart enough to realize this fact and that without creating evil, his purpose for being would have been null and void from the beginning. I just see it as the cosmic balance in things.


Peace be with you.

-truthseeker