Containment option for BP oil spill a Lie!

Is the containment option a lie?

From the start, I have had a nagging suspicion that it is nothing more than a lie and an act.

I have posted this thread on our own website questioning exactly this:
activepatriot.org...

From my layman's perspective, it takes 5000 psi to suck the oil to the surface. Part of that is a static head pressure of 2165 psi. The rest is the Dynamic Head Pressure.

I have searched and found no pump out there capable of handling this psi with the flow 1500-1900 gpm needed to contain the spill.

I challenge anyone to show me credible, linked sources for the technology and equipment that currently exists to do this.

I have searched far and wide and have not found such a pump. I am left with the conclusion that it does not exist. I am operating on the assumption that this is a known lie being perpatrated on an unknowing public.

There is no getting around the problem the 5000 foot depth creates. Pipe diameter, GPM are secondary factors to the depth.

Resourceful ATSers are welcome to debunk this! I have always been impressed with how well ATS members research issues. Many times I have had my eyes opened here and I hope to give back some of what has been given to me.

That being said, I want to be debunked. I used to live in Destin Florida. Anyone familiar with that part of the coast would be sick to their stomach to think about what that area faces is containment is a lie.






[edit on 6-5-2010 by ActivePatriot]

reply to post by ActivePatriot


Honestly I don't think it will work either, but I think the plan is good for now.

They don't need to "pump" it to the surface. It already has positive pressure. It is already overcoming the static pressure of the sea water. All they need to do is contain it as it pumps itself out.

The enclosure for the sea bottom only has to be strong enough and heavy enough to overcome the positive pressure from the rushing oil. It will have equalized pressure inside and outside of the container, so there is no force acting to crush the enclosure.

At this point, they are not trying to filter and limit seawater infiltration. They will take the bad with the good and sort it out later, so there is no need for a custom fit or seal.

What the will need is a rig at the top of the enclosure and piping that is capable of collecting all that oil as it surfaces. If they can solve that problem, the enclosure has a chance to work. At the very least it will be a temporary fix while they drill relief wells and get more resources to the area.

reply to post by getreadyalready

They don't need to "pump" it to the surface. It already has positive pressure. It is already overcoming the static pressure of the sea water. All they need to do is contain it as it pumps itself out.

Not really true.
When it leaks out under pressure, it disperses in the ocean and floats to the surface because oil is lighter than water.

If what you are trying to do is contain it before is disperses and floats, you must suck it out at a rate equal to or greater than the flow coming out of the leak.

Normally, pressure in the well is what pumps the oil to the rig/tanker. With the pipe broken that pressure is lost to the sea. If you cannot tightly seal a pipe around the leak and rely on a the dome idea, you must replace that lost pressure with suction.

Again, that suction must meet or exceed the pressure and flow coming out of the pipe.

The dome idea is unsealed
Positive pressure from the leak will exit around the dome instead of overcoming 5000 psi pressure from a pipe to the surface unless suction is applied.

Enough suction to overcome 5000 foot depth at 1500-1900 gallons per minute.

Honestly I don't think it will work either, but I think the plan is good for now.

No offense, but I hope you're not involved in the project.

A Vertical Turbine pump most suited for such a high volume application



Maximum depth 2000 feet.

Colfax is World's largest oil pump

2000 PSI Max (Not enough!)


5000 PSI is what is needed to accomplish this feat.

Don't believe me?
Calculate it for yourselves here:
Pumpworld.com Total Dynamic Head Calculator

I challenge the oil industry to prove me wrong.

reply to post by ActivePatriot


The leak already has positive pressure of an estimated 30 psi above the surrounding sea water. If the dome is applied with a tube to the surface, the path of least resistance is up the tube toward the lower pressure. The oil would not leak out around the bottom of the dome toward the higher pressure sea water?

This oil is also already navigating 30,000 feet of drill tube to get to the leak on the site of the sea floor.

Getting the oil out doesn't seem to be a problem at this point! Controlling it is the problem, and the dome and tube solution is a good plan that can be implemented within days.

The long term plan has to be to drill relief wells, relieve some pressure and eventually cap the leak, but that is going to take a minimum of several months, and more likely several years. For now, the dome is the best solution, although I think a series of small explosions in the drill tube to create positive pressure in both directions, damage the support tube and then allow it to implode from the vacuum left after the explosion is the best solution. I think they are skittish about the risk at this point and they won't try it.

you cannot use a watetr pump on water mixed with oil, let alone crude. it will require a filter of some sort, that will clog very quickly.

reply to post by getreadyalready

This oil is also already navigating 30,000 feet of drill tube to get to the leak on the site of the sea floor.

Under pressure within an unbroken pipe!

The leak already has positive pressure of an estimated 30 psi above the surrounding sea water.

Because it has broken out of the pipe, it has lost pressure!

If the dome is applied with a tube to the surface, the path of least resistance is up the tube toward the lower pressure. The oil would not leak out around the bottom of the dome toward the higher pressure sea water?

No, put it in the dome under a 5000 foot pipe and 30 psi will not displace 5000 feet of fluid above it!

What is your background which makes you think this will just magically rise up 5000 feet of pipe?


BP’s “solution” uses the Deepwater Enterprise drillship, which is capable of processing 15,000 barrels of oil per day.
alertnet.org...

BP doesn't think it will magically rise up the pipe, they are using a drill rig to pull it up!

Problem is, what about the other 35,000-45,000 barrels a day they are short? Again, equipment does not exist to do this job at that depth with that flow rate.

Show me a verifiable source otherwise instead of reassuring magic words.

reply to post by ActivePatriot


30 psi of Positive Pressure. That means the ambient pressure of sea water (approximately 2400 psi) plus 30 psi.

Now if that is put into an encasement with 5000 feet of sea water above it, it will still force itself to the surface gaining momentum as it rises and producing an siphoning effect once the seawater is cleared from the pipe, because the 5000 feet of light crude is lighter than seawater.

Again. This is not a cure. It is a band aid, but it may, and probably will contain the leaking oil for the time being, as long as they have the equipment on the surface to process the oil as it surfaces.

Even if it is 50% successful, that will be a significant reduction in this disaster that is getting worse by the minute!

reply to post by getreadyalready

30 psi of Positive Pressure. That means the ambient pressure of sea water (approximately 2400 psi) plus 30 psi.

Now if that is put into an encasement with 5000 feet of sea water above it, it will still force itself to the surface gaining momentum as it rises and producing an siphoning effect once the seawater is cleared from the pipe, because the 5000 feet of light crude is lighter than seawater.

Which will cause a rise, but not anywhere close to sea level. Just because you get rid of the ambient sea water pressure does not mean you can defy gravity and atmospheric pressure all the way up a 5000 foot pipe.

Even if it is 50% successful, that will be a significant reduction in this disaster that is getting worse by the minute!

BP’s “solution” uses the Deepwater Enterprise drillship, which is capable of processing 15,000 barrels of oil per day.
alertnet.org...


15,000 barrels a day is not 50% successful when compared to 50,000 barrels a day.

It’s 30%

You seem to have some knowledge in the area. How about providing links to sources that support what you are saying.

Here, I’ll provide one for you

www.slb.com...

Can it handle the flow?

Maybe you're right in what you say, maybe not.

If you don't provide credible links, you're just some guy talking. This is too serious to just take your word for it.

reply to post by ActivePatriot


Well, I am just some guy talking. I have a background in Engineering, and a degree in Chemistry. I also work for the State of Florida and get updates on the situation daily.

On Monday morning, I had the pleasure of running into some of our Emergency Operations group assembling to brief the Governor. There were Coast Guard, Department of Health, and State Department personal there. I had a nice, but not "too" detailed conversation with them.

Currently they are not even hoping to avoid damage to the beaches of the Florida panhandle. They have conceded the fact that the beaches will be overcome with oil at some point. There are a lot of volunteer groups and local governments organizing to clean any debris from the beach to make the clean up of the oil easier. They have taken some (very few) precautions to try and protect some sea life, but it seems pretty hopeless at this point, and especially if the BP solution doesn't work.

I believe the 4 story encasement has a good chance of working temporarily, but it is just my opinion, and I definitely see a lot of what-ifs and potential problems. Still, every other possible solution at this point are months away, so I am happy to see this one moving forward.

reply to post by getreadyalready

Well, I am just some guy talking. I have a background in Engineering, and a degree in Chemistry. I also work for the State of Florida and get updates on the situation daily.

On Monday morning, I had the pleasure of running into some of our Emergency Operations group assembling to brief the Governor. There were Coast Guard, Department of Health, and State Department personal there. I had a nice, but not "too" detailed conversation with them.

Ok, just the type of guy talking I'm looking for!

Honestly I don't think it will work either, but I think the plan is good for now.

Your words.

Is that how they are running this?

You don't think it'll work. You keep spending time trying to shoot me down. And, you think a plan that won't work is good for now.

Figures you work for government.

On Monday morning, I had the pleasure of running into some of our Emergency Operations group assembling to brief the Governor. There were Coast Guard, Department of Health, and State Department personal there. I had a nice, but not "too" detailed conversation with them.

Come on!

Where did my government troll go?!!

I will miss you getreadyalready!

reply to post by ActivePatriot


LOL! Sorry, I had to go to bed.

I am not at work today. Going to the beach in Destin in a little while. Figured I better take the kids to see it while it was still white!

As for the "is this how their running this." The answer sadly is YES!

A couple of problems, 1. This particular crude mixes easily with water, so by the time it gets to the surface it is a foamy chocolate milk looking slick, not the typical slick. This makes estimation of the leak difficult.
2. All estimations at this time are coming from BP, and they have a lot of reasons to be inaccurate or flat out lie.
3. BP is also running the show to try and stop the leak, government is only looking at how to protect the beaches, wildlife, and commerce.
4. If the leak is anywhere near the 60,000 barrel worst case estimate, then everyone, including BP know that it is beyond the scope of any emergency plan they had and nobody knows what to do next. Every solution takes months, if not years to implement, and withing 90 days the impact will be global and irreversible, so yes, even a plan that probably won't work is good enough to try for now!

All of my arguing is based on several assumptions that could turn out false. For the immediate plan to work, or have a decent impact, we have to assume that the leak is significantly less than 60,000 barrels per day. Hopefully it is more around the 5000 barrel mark. We have to assume the 3 reported leaks are within close proximity to one another. We have to assume there is enough positive pressure to at least start displacing seawater in the encasement and pipe, and begin the siphoning effect. If earlier estimates are correct and with a little luck, this will be a very good diversion for now while they work on a more permanent solution.

In my opinion, it is already too late for the manatees, turtles, wetlands, oysters, and white beaches! I hope I'm wrong, but I think the first decent storm, not even hurricane, will bring this stuff into shallow water, marshland, and beach land. I think we will see about a 2 year ban on Apalachicola Oysters, I think we will see at least a summertime ban on fishing, crabbing, lobstering in the gulf. I think it will crush already fragile economies and real estate along the gulf coast. I think there will be record unemployment and a mass exodus northward by the end of the summer, and I think BP will pick up the tab for less than 10% of the total cleanup!

reply to post by getreadyalready


While you were sleeping, I came around to what you were saying thanks to some discussion on gCaptain's Deepwater Horizon thread so, I do agree that it is possible from a technical standpoint.

I also updated our own ActivePatriot.org BP oil spill thread to reflect this.

During this discussion I came across this:

The funnel-like top of the chamber will be connected to a drill pipe inside a larger pipe, or riser. That mechanism will then be connected to Transocean's Deepwater Enterprise drillship, which is capable of processing 15,000 barrels of oil per day.

Source: alertnet.org...


This now brings up this question:
Now that we know they have the capability, do they have the will?


If Transocean’s drill ship can only process 15,000 barrels a day and the leak could be 60,000 barrels a day, what about the rest. That is nowhere near 85%, it's more like 25%. From what we now know, it is possible to pump the 60,000 volume to contain the leak, but will they?

Will they only pump what they can process? If so, are they moving more drill ships similarly equipped to the area?

If so when will they arrive?
If not why?

Have you heard any thing more about this than that article states?

BP is also running the show to try and stop the leak, government is only looking at how to protect the beaches, wildlife, and commerce.

I would think the government should be working on both the cause and effects. Cut the cause at the source to minimize the effects.

All estimations at this time are coming from BP, and they have a lot of reasons to be inaccurate or flat out lie.

Exactly why the government and news media needs to be all over them.

In my opinion, it is already too late for the manatees, turtles, wetlands, oysters, and white beaches! I hope I'm wrong, but I think the first decent storm, not even hurricane, will bring this stuff into shallow water, marshland, and beach land. I think we will see about a 2 year ban on Apalachicola Oysters, I think we will see at least a summertime ban on fishing, crabbing, lobstering in the gulf. I think it will crush already fragile economies and real estate along the gulf coast. I think there will be record unemployment and a mass exodus northward by the end of the summer, and I think BP will pick up the tab for less than 10% of the total cleanup!

You make for a lousy government troll. In fact, I may have to revoke that title I have bestowed upon you!

Even when the ban is lifted people will not trust the seafood from that area for years to come. Big long-term impact to the economy down there.

What you said is exactly why people have so little trust in the government. BP will pay for some immediate clean up costs and be let off the hook for the long-term consequences of it's actions.

There is a reason why we don't trust the government to look after the people's interests. They consistently fail us, then try to paint us as paranoid conspiracy nut jobs.

I Used to live in Destin, very nice. They had beach erosion problems from the hurricanes a few years back and replenished the beach with dredged sand. There is only a certain amount of dredge-able white sand to replenish it with and the beach communities all want to fight for what is left. Doesn't look very good for "The luckiest fishing village in the world."

Update on the pressure and flow of the spill

ActivePatriot: Oil containment thread

It only takes a 4 ½ inch hole at only 30 psi to reach 100,000 barrels a day (their worst case scenario) using the calculators listed on the above source.

If we are anywhere close to the actual psi numbers with our calculations, it would only take a 1.12 inch hole.

We believe our numbers are close and that is why they cannot stop the other leaks. As we state, it is very doubtful that stopping the third leak would diminish the flow since it would just add more pressure to the other leak points.

Again, we dot not think their containment option is feasible.

If it is leaking at near 9,000 psi, they would have to allow an uncontrolled blowout to the surface. If they try to slow the flow at the surface, the pressure will either blow the oil out around the box or literally blow the box apart completely.

Whatever the case, they still have only a 15,000 barrel a day processing capacity on the drillship enterprise. What are they going to do with all the rest?

reply to post by ActivePatriot


I've been out of touch all weekend. I heard there were was some complication with their plan and they had to stop? My mother was trying to relay info by phone, but I thought she said ice crystals messed up the plan? Is that possible?

I am beginning my catch up now, but I won't be back at work until Tuesday, so I won't have any good infor except ATS and MSM.

Wow ignorance roams freely on this thread. I may be mistaken because didn't bother to read all the posts but they all seemed to be arguing the same point back and forth.
No pump is needed, the oil is already under pressure more than necessary to over come botom pressure. Also as it rises up the hose/pipe whatever they are going to use to get it from the pollution dome to the surface, as it rises it creates an upward force and cause a Bernoulli effecte so the oil WILL reach the surface at a very respectable pressure.

en.wikipedia.org...'s_principle

this webpage has a nice table you can input numbers revelant to the oil spill situation if you want to spend the time researching them, I don't.
hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu...



[edit on 9-5-2010 by Just Wondering]

reply to post by Just Wondering


He came around to see that point eventually. Besides, it appears to be moot now that methylate crystals have shutdown this solution!

I wonder why they cannot construct the dome in a way that would allow crystals through and still stop the majority of the thicker crude?

I wonder why can't burn off the methylates as they escape?

I wonder why they cannot use a larger tube to the surface and deal with the details up there? The containment device doesn't need to be perfect at this point. It only needs to be a giant funnel!

Starting to think this was a big PC event, and never meant to be a real solution.

reply to post by getreadyalready
Well I am not a petroleum engineer so I am not going to pretend to know how petroleum and byproducts behave at that depth and temperature, remember that this is 5,000 feet down and freezing cold.
I am guessing they thought that this may happen that is why they told everyone that they were not sure this would work at this depth but they felt they at least needed to try it. If they hadn't tried it they would have been bashed for that too. They are in a no-win situation here.

reply to post by Just Wondering

They are in a no-win situation here.

We all are!

There is practically no way that all of the safety features should have failed. There is no way this rig should have sunk, or that help should have taken so long to arrive. There is no way that a single BOP is enough for 7 miles of drill tube, and there is equally no way that multiple BOP's would fail at the same time.

It is hard to be empathetic for BP, when their mistakes or shortcuts have potentially destroyed the lagest source of life on the earth!