Unamerican people need to leave America

I think the one poster had a point, but they brought up the wrong argument.

I have the NATURAL RIGHT to Life, Liberty and Property.

The government has NO DAMN RIGHT to take my labor or my property and give it to someone else. PERIOD.

You go SpectreDC.

Nowhere in the Constitution or in Natural Law or in Common Law does it state that for the GOOD of the PEOPLE, that anyone can take my property or my life or labor.

So, the one poster had a point, just the wrong argument.

Originally posted by endisnigheNowhere in the Constitution or in Natural Law or in Common Law does it state that for the GOOD of the PEOPLE, that anyone can take my property or my life or labor.

I don't have the wrong argument, you have the wrong understanding and distinction between LEGAL right and NATURAL right.

You're correct, you have no requirement to work for the means of other people and those people have no right to take from you.

BUT, no entity on this planet has the authority to take away the natural rights of another person. Not AMERICAN, not U.S. CITIZEN, but PERSON. A HUMAN. Whether it be an illegal immigrant, or a muslim extremist trying to bomb a building.

I have seen on many occasions people preaching to do just that, and to do so would be unamerican.

reply to post by SpectreDC

Governments don't need to recognize anything. The people who live under the unjust rule of these governments do. If the people are vehemently aware of their situation and have the courage, like America's forefathers, to fight for their rights, they will eventually acquire them.

People make up the governments. Without government the only Natural Law that would exist is that of not leaving the house or your community because people would be out to kill and conquer like people have always done.

There is fantasy and there is reality. I live in reality and realize government is a necessary evil that should protect our freedoms. Without government it would be anarchy. Corruption will always be there. The only thing for us to do is make sure to hold the governments feet to the fire so the corruption is kept to a minimum.

reply to post by Light of Night


You have plenty to do with what is happening today, and guess what, you will be history one day and someone will say the same thing about what you say now, how is that different?

If it wasn't for that history you would not and could not be saying what you do today, all of it is relevant, are all your clothes American made? your electrical items? your car? the list can go on, I bet the answer is no to most of it, yet the natural law of Humanity tells me that the people making those things for you should have the right to earn more than $1 a day wages even less in some places.

That is called cause and effect, if you didn't participate then maybe they could remain free with a way to live a better life and not want to step on your stolen land, what you really mean to say is who cares about them as long as your ok, am I right?

Decent hard working respectful Americans are paying the price for attitudes just like yours, because if those who are in power did not want to take from the rest of the World what does not belong to them, then just maybe these people would not want to hurt those decent Americans, again cause and effect.

I speak the same for the same in this country, if we didn't go killing innocent people in their own countries for our own greed, then they wouldn't be queuing around the block to blow themselves to bits to teach us a lesson, eventually it will all have to come to an end, sadly I really do believe we have not even begun to see the worst of it yet.

And all they want is the same as you, to be free and left alone, I wonder how History will write the events of the World today, they say History is written by the victors, nobody has been victorious yet over anything, today's history is yet to be written.

I remember hearing of a Zuni Shaman who's prophecy said that the indigenous people all over the World will one day have all their lands returned to Nature and they will be as they where before, right now today, I so pray that he is right and it will happen, because then and only then will every Man / Woman/ Child really be free.

Those are going to be hard lessons for us all, and I welcome them.

At least until we begin to treat each other with equality, instead of what we are fed to believe.

reply to post by SpectreDC


Oh, agreed, that is why I was not referring to anyone specifically.

I just wanted to point out that if people are going to call others out on some Natural Rights, I wanted to point to all of them.

I gave your thread S&F, agree wholeheartedly.

Yes, our rights are natural and self-evident. However, governments all over the world are formed for one basic reason and that reason is to protect its people. Do illegal aliens deserve rights? Absolutely, just as criminals deserve rights. When you enter this country illegally, you are then breaking the law and that my friend, is legalities. It is just the same as if you enter my property illegally. I then have the right to remove you.

We as Americans have the right to protect our property, economy and way of life. The good thing is that we allow people to come into our country (property), as long as they do it a certain way. When you do it by any other means than how we ask, you are trespassing so to speak and we have the right to remove you. It's just that plain and simple.

--airspoon

reply to post by SpectreDC


Very well said man. I was once an ignoramus when it came to the Constitution and what it actually says. Then one day I read a thread on another site in regards to the USA Patriot Act and I realized I had no idea what the problem was. I didn't understand my rights, as it were. In all reality, it probably only took a week to not only understand these laws you are talking about but also government structure, the Constitution, the Bill of Rights, etc. Since then I've made studying law a hobby actually.

The problem is indifference. Today, people are willing to sacrifice their inherent eligibility to a real pursuit of happiness for a bigger size television. People don't care anymore, they've all been hypnotized by the media. It's a tragedy.

I'm going to be rude as usual.

This rant reminds me of Gilligan's Island.

Remember the one where they build a raft out junk.

Or the one where some outsider shows up on a tiny skiff.

Or the one...

Everyone gets on board and Gilligan is the last one to get on board...

Then the WHOLE escape plan fails and sinks because they were all desperate to leave the island and move to a better life.



Also reminds me of an old song... Love The One You're With.

If you don't like it change it.



Worst part of America? Too many people on board that came lately because they couldn't affect change where they came from... And they are pissed if you point it out to them. The boat is tipping and sinking and letting in way too much water. Sinking is certainly an option.

Illegals need to be trained how to reform the gubbermint they came from then sent back with the American spirit of making things happen. Live free or die. Not run to another country and take what they've built. Even if it WAS inherited at this point.

Unless they 'let go' of the boat we are all sunk.

Oh yeah, and their self evident rights ... God recognizes them globally just as we all know the salute that's recognized globally. And VISA too.

I am pissed about the fools who keep trying to say the constitution only applies to citizens.
I came across this mis conception initially because of the AZ. legislation... Endisnighe was kind enough to put my initial functional anger about that at bay. TY you crazy bugger

However, oh however, during that period I had at least six people with the word "CONSTITUTION" and Jefferson, Franklin, liberty, freedom and/or the word patriot insist that the constitution, again, applies to only citizens. These same people used it as a club for a year, then disregarded it and wantonly distorted the whole document, its intent and scope,like it is only relevant when it serves them...

I was VERY, VERY glad to find some who supported it, even when it did not support their desires... Thats the point, it is hardest to support it when it works against your desires, I respect that and I will try to walk the walk from now on.

BTW if anyone wants to throw garlic, grease your ass now, my foots fixin to come right out your nostril, a new tooth necklace for the lady...

Good thread

reply to post by SpectreDC


So never mind the US law, let's talk about "Natural Law" as you said.

Take the examples of Lemmings and Lions, in either case the place is full, and the ecosystem can't take any more.

When overpopulation happens and resources to live on get scarce, the Lemmings will swim off into the ocean in large groups, trying to find better conditions. Usually they all drown.

When Lions have enough in the "pride", the alpha males will chase off the other lions. So the hunting will still be good, and life, though not perfect, will be pretty good.

Do you want to be a Lion or a Lemming?


[edit on 4-5-2010 by 1SawSomeThings]

reply to post by Light of Night


actually thats my goal in life, to achieve just that, so thanks for encouraging me further, f the luxuries at the cost of slavery

Originally posted by Light of Night
reply to post by SpectreDC

 

Governments don't need to recognize anything. The people who live under the unjust rule of these governments do. If the people are vehemently aware of their situation and have the courage, like America's forefathers, to fight for their rights, they will eventually acquire them.

People make up the governments. Without government the only Natural Law that would exist is that of not leaving the house or your community because people would be out to kill and conquer like people have always done.

First off, lets not make this an argument about political theory and especially anarchy, in which I will trounce the living hell out of you in.

Secondly, people may make up the government but government officials are hardly in the same situation as the people are. The government and the people are two separate entities regardless of the form of politics, the goal is to close the gap between the two which we've been unsuccessful in for the longest time. Even our own constitutional republic, which has limited democracy, has been corrupted and turned into a system that works for its own means and not those of the people. This will be proven once more when people sheepishly go to the voting box, vote in new representatives, and continue to have the same problems as before. It happened in 2006 and 2008, we will just see it happen again in November and in 2012.

I think it was you referencing utopias, well if we were living in a utopia governments would work. Sadly, they do not and while they may or may not be a necessary evil it has been governments, whether monarchy, communist, theological or constitutional republics, who routinely undermine the natural law of god for the law of the land that benefits their own being.

Case and point, read the Greek classic Antigone.

reply to post by adifferentbreed


actually i said yea they prob did. i just said im sure there's one civilization on earth that didnt. at one point in history?

Originally posted by 1SawSomeThings
reply to post by SpectreDC

 

So never mind the US law, let's talk about "Natural Law" as you said.

Take the examples of Lemmings and Lions, in either case the place is full, and the ecosystem can't take any more.

When overpopulation happens and resources to live on get scarce, the Lemmings will swim of into the ocean in large groups, trying to find better conditions. Usually they all drown.

When Lions have enough in the "pride", the alpha males will chase off the other lions. So the hunting will still be good, and life, though not perfect, will be pretty good.

Do you want to be a Lion or a Lemming?

This is neither here nor there with the thread topic, nor do I like falling in little ditches filled with false dichotomies.

Hey, you missed me completely either way being north of the border, but those were some very good words. Naturalist philosophies and ascetic lifestyle defines a wholesome life from my perspective, and it's more than apparant that this worlds governments need tearing down from the top-down. Stop with animal cruelty and food-farms first, to show we're capable of caring about other than ourselves first, then concentrate on human issues. Put republic ethical commissions in charge of all science efforts which will impact people on a widespread basis, and give them as many watchdog committees as needed to ensure the messes we are seeing now never happen again.

I wish I could leave

reply to post by SpectreDC


Then welcome to the jungle my friend, where you will learn about the little false dichotomies in your own thinking.

Ever spent much time in the third world? The US is becoming that, one giant stinking third world cesspool.

reply to post by DrMattMaddix


The boats not sinking.

The elite are just throwing "you the people" to the sharks.

reply to post by SpectreDC


I don't agree with your diatribe. "Natural Rights" are a concept. An opinion of what you THINK you have, of what you deserve. Yes, I said an OPINION.

In reality you are born with nothing. You deserve nothing. You are given nothing except what those around you will give to you.

You scream and rant about "rights" that all people have imbued in them simply by being born. There is only one right that you have at any one time and that is the right to resist the mandate of the existing law (order).

These "inalienable" rights you like to trumpet aren't imbued upon you simply because you are a born human being - that's the most SINGULAR CONCEITED, ARROGANT statement made, next to "We are the only life in the universe".

The rights you enjoy now are due to soldiers who fight enemies who would take those "inalienable rights" away from you. And there will always, always be someone who will be ready to take away your rights. Rights are BORN out of superior resistance. And if at any time a superior force were to take over this country, you would quickly see that those "rights" you quack about being imbued on everyone would be taken away.

Try arguing that you have inalienable rights with the man who has a weapon pointed at your head. If he demands you do something or not do something, the only right you have is the right to resist his order. Try excercising your "inalienable" rights in a prison camp under the order running the camp. Again, the only right you have to excercise as a human being is resistance. You may die for excercising that right, depending on who oppresses you, but you are free to excercise it.

reply to post by SpectreDC


Well to throw a wrench in the works I'll add this; You call these laws "Natural" laws, a "God Given Right". So in reference how is this possible with the seperation of Church and State which the United States also upholds? I await any response.