Young Aussie genius whipping NASA in Moon Hoax Debate!

Originally posted by FoosM
This guy makes the statement that, are you ready for this? That all 800 plus pounds of lunar samples were brought back on in two containers per flight.

That video is wrong. The mission sample catalogs show what containers held what samples:

Apollo 11
Apollo 12
Apollo 14
Apollo 15
Apollo 16
Apollo 17

Originally posted by nataylor

Originally posted by FoosM
This guy makes the statement that, are you ready for this? That all 800 plus pounds of lunar samples were brought back on in two containers per flight.

That video is wrong. The mission sample catalogs show what containers held what samples:

Apollo 11
Apollo 12
Apollo 14
Apollo 15
Apollo 16
Apollo 17

Thanks very much nataylor. The character of your postings is essential to the utility of this thread.

The first item on your list is the pdf of NASA docs from 1977. There are multiple interesting factoids found in this scanned, digital enhanced artifact of our collective official history. Let us first observe this document is a revision of a first edition.

APOLLO-11 LUNARSAMPLE INFORMATION CATALOGUE
(REviSED)
"Preface to the 2nd edition COMPILED BY F.E.KRAMER, D.B. TWEDELL, AND W.J.A. WALTON, JR.
FEBRUARY, 1977

National Aeronautic and Space Administration
L YNDON B. JOHNSON SPACE CENTER
Houston, Texas"

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/d5c65091fb10.jpg[/atsimg]

The return of Apollo 11 was on July 24, 1969. This means the PET were the first handlers of the moon samples and held them for about 6-7 weeks. 5 weeks before the return of Apollo 12 is on October 20, 1969. The PET had to finish cataloging before the return of Apollo 12. The date of return for Apollo 12 is November 24, 1969.

The PET had 6-7 weeks to categorize and document the samples.

In June of 1975, 6 years later....

a Re-examination team is formed because may I quote:

Because of the short time allotted to Preliminary Examination, this type of information was sketchy, at best, and for the most part, non-existent.

Again from the Preface:

" the low percentage of remaining sample and the lack of rock subdivision photography made recon-struction of the rock pieces impossible. Because the photographs taken during the PET examinations were of dusty rocks, few pieces could be "fitted" into the original rock photographs with any reasonable degree of confidence."

Finally in the Preface:

This catalogue should serve as a reference and an aid in dealing with the Apollo II sample items within. It should provide the user with all of the information available as of June 1976. It is sincerely hoped that this revised edition of the Apollo II Sample Information Catalogue will prove to be useful until the passage of time and the advancement of science have made it obsolete. ....
credits .... Special thanks go to Michael B. Duke, Curator, for his continuing advice and support.

Thanks again.... thanks to nataylor.... we have found a this very nice & definitive statement about how those moon rocks were transported from the moon to Ellington A.F.B., in part:
[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/663f29e0646d.jpg[/atsimg]

There are some really incredible details in these records..... it took them 6 years to write it!

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/ec82b418b5a3.jpg[/atsimg]

TOTAL SAMPLE RETURNED......21 836.086 gm.

They measured down to the micro-gram. Think about that level of detail for a moment... it's incredible.

Originally posted by nataylor

Originally posted by FoosM
This guy makes the statement that, are you ready for this? That all 800 plus pounds of lunar samples were brought back on in two containers per flight.

That video is wrong. The mission sample catalogs show what containers held what samples:

Apollo 11
Apollo 12
Apollo 14
Apollo 15
Apollo 16
Apollo 17

Why would the video be wrong.
Maybe those documents you linked are wrong
I mean, you saw how much trouble they took to make those rock boxes.
Why go through all that trouble if they weren't planning on using them?

It would also be helpful, instead of just posting links to documents to simply highlight the pages that should be read. Or posting the relevant text.

Originally posted by SayonaraJupiter

TOTAL SAMPLE RETURNED......21 836.086 gm.

They measured down to the micro-gram. Think about that level of detail for a moment... it's incredible.

edit on 4/25/2011 by SayonaraJupiter because: for grammars

edit on 4/25/2011 by SayonaraJupiter because: stupid tags

SJ, what do you think is going on here?

Let me add the following:

As the LRL took shape, NASA had been encouraged to recruit members of the outside science community to participate in the oversight of the lab and in the preliminary examination of the samples. The expertise of many outsiders working on the Lunar Sample Analysis Planning Team (LSAPT) and the Preliminary Examination Team (PET) was crucial to making the sample processing and distribution operation work properly.

When the rocks arrived, the sealed boxes were placed into the vacuum system known as the F-201. A technician working in spacesuit vacuum gloves manipulated the samples. The samples were observed and photographed in vacuum. Pieces of sample for examination or analysis were passed into cabinet lines containing nitrogen at 1 atmosphere. Working under separate management, the quarantine people fed lunar fines to mice, quail and other life forms, watching for signs of ill effects and marveling that plants grew better in lunar soil than quartz sand. Planetary scientists were unhappy about the amount of material which they viewed as wasted on these experiments and the extent to which quarantine diminished the focus on planetary research.

Sealed boxes.
Sealed boxes.

Meanwhile, PET worked behind the barrier to describe and analyze the samples in a cursory fashion so that the LSAPT could allocate samples wisely to Principal Investigators (PIs). LSAPT had responsibility for overseeing the scientific integrity of the samples and authorizing the preliminary examinations performed on the samples. At the beginning of the first mission, LSAPT members weren't even allowed into the LRL. Some PET members likened LSAPT to military Generals sitting in the chateau issuing orders to the PET troops in the trenches and being unappreciative of the difficulties of working very long hours in the frustrating environment of the quarantine.

Hmmm.... LSAPT members weren't even allowed into the LRL ( Lunar Receiving Laboratory).

As advisors, LSAPT had no authority over quarantine and little effect on LRL management. Quarantine was mandated by a high level committee called the Interagency Committee on Back Contamination comprised of representatives from NASA, the U.S. Public Health Service, Dept. of Agriculture and academia. LRL Director P. R. Bell, also aware of the need for more processing and storage capability, was trying to get a second vacuum processing station funded. He worked hard on improving the reliability of the vacuum system in which he had invested so much of his energy. He was unwilling to give it up in the face of recommendations to process samples in nitrogen.

Four LSAPT scientists with a strong will to see that changes were made in the care of lunar samples took matters into their own hands. Known as the "Four Horsemen", Wasserburg, Walker, Paul Gast, and James R. Arnold finally took their cause to NASA Administrator Thomas Paine. The Four Horsemen got the attention of MSC's Director Robert Gilruth, who, after being taken on a nighttime inspection of the LRL, was very sympathetic and supportive toward making improvements.

1970 was a year of changes. The explosion aboard Apollo 13 and the aborted lunar sample return gave the LRL time to catch up and rethink procedures. The appointment of Tony Calio as Director of Science and Applications, Paul Gast as Chief of Lunar and Earth Sciences Division, and Mike Duke as Curator resulted in progress on lunar sample preservation and careful documentation. The requirement to process samples in vacuum was dropped after Apollo 12. A small, temporary storage vault was quickly constructed in building 31. The following year quarantine was discontinued after Apollo 14, and this permitted more focused thinking about the sample processing and storage problem.

The solution to the problem was to construct the Sample Storage and Processing Laboratory (SSPL) by remodeling part of B. 31 at JSC for the purpose of storing samples securely and cleanly under nitrogen and preparing samples requested by PIs. Working in SSPL was considerably easier than in the LRL. Technicians and scientists merely donned clean room suits over their street clothes to enter the laboratory. Samples were handled in gloved cabinets. After the Apollo 17 PET was completed in 1973 all the samples were moved from the LRL into building 31. Except for the gas analysis and radiation counting labs, the LRL was abandoned to the biologists and doctors.

NASA. They can weigh rocks down to the microgram but when it comes to original telemetry source data and video it seems they can't be bothered to save copies or even catalogue them at all. Usually these tapes are referred to simply as "the lost Apollo tapes".

By Maggie Fox, Health and Science Editor
WASHINGTON | Thu Jul 16, 2009 3:49pm EDT
(Reuters) - The original recordings of the first humans landing on the moon 40 years ago were erased and re-used, but newly restored copies of the original broadcast look even better, NASA officials said on Thursday.

NASA released the first glimpses of a complete digital make-over of the original landing footage that clarifies the blurry and grainy images of Neil Armstrong and Buzz Aldrin walking on the surface of the moon.

The full set of recordings, being cleaned up by Burbank, California-based Lowry Digital, will be released in September. The preview is available at www.nasa.gov.

Source: www.reuters.com...

If this is a fact then we will have a new, digitalized, enhanced, history that will be clearer and more convincing than ever before. Who needs original source data when the forces of NASA and Hollywood are combined!? They try to downplay it.... NASA apologizing for their own behalf...

Check it out, Lowry Digital has a job opening for a "Junior Touchup Artist " www.lowrydigital.com...

This article, posted only a few days ago, Posted: Sat., Apr. 23, 2011, 4:00am PT, specifies that

According to RMW Burbank COO Reid Burns, the recent emphasis on 3D is an evolutionary application of software originally developed for restorations, such as grain-removal tools.

www.variety.com...

Surprisingly absent from this business oriented article is the lack of Lowry Digital's work with NASA on the new version of history that they are creating for us.

What else does he have to say?

"Using our proprietary processes to digitally remove the grain, increases the accuracy and expedites the rotoscoping, object separation and clean-plate paint work for 2D-to-3D conversions," Burns says. "We have also developed automated fixes for the polarization issues prevalent in stereo capture today. When photographing images that may have windows, chrome or other reflective surfaces, polarization issues are a common problem that we have been fixing for a number of stereo productions. As an example, we have recently been working with DreamWorks on 'Fright Night' remedying these type of issues."

When the source information comes from NASA there is no other organization that can reproduce some of their claims therefore these claims are generally accepted on the grounds that later critical review of the data combined with a demand for source material could become problematic in various ways.

Should this technology be used to create video of practically anything and to make it real, so that when mixed with the historical record, could be a part of a much larger narrative picture of what is reality?

reply to post by SayonaraJupiter


Keep it coming.

With every fine-toothed-comb nit picking effort, you prove the reality of Apollo over and over and over and over again....

"Jarrah White" might get mad....you are showing him to be the fool that we already know (except his two or three "fans" out there...).

reply to post by FoosM

This guy makes the statement that, are you ready for this? That all 800 plus pounds of lunar samples were brought back on in two containers per flight. All of it And they keep saying those boxes were in six missions What, did they know Apollo 13 wasn't meant to land

And wouldn't you know, Y-12 was linked to another BIG secret.

Your second link doesn't work, but I guess you're hinting that the Manhattan Project was also a hoax. Personally, I'm outraged that the DoE is wasting money on stupid videos to try to bring tourists to visit a "National Security Complex." Oh, and that's a freelance copywriter with questionable research skills making those statements which we here know are simply wrong. (This video weirds me out at several levels... the Soviets would have used a couple of fishing tackle boxes!)

Originally posted by FoosM
Why would the video be wrong.
Maybe those documents you linked are wrong

I mean, you saw how much trouble they took to make those rock boxes.
Why go through all that trouble if they weren't planning on using them?

It would also be helpful, instead of just posting links to documents to simply highlight the pages that should be read. Or posting the relevant text.

The video is wrong for claiming that ALL the samples were returned in the SRC boxes. They were not. They did use the boxes, but not exclusively.

As for pages:

Apollo 11, starting page 24 of the PDF (labeled page 17), we see that some samples were returned in ALCRS 1004, ALSRC 1003, and the contingency bag:



Apollo 12, starting page 25 of the PDF (labeled page 11), we see a breakdown of Selected samples, returned in one ALSRC (S-ALSRC), Special samples (such as core tubes) and Documented samples (broken down by bag number), which were returned in another ALSRC (D-ALSRC), Tote-bag samples, returned in the tote bag, and Contingency samples, returned in the Contingency sample container. On page 31 of the PDF (labeled page 17), it goes on to describe the 4 containers and on page 33 (labeled page 19) it says:



Apollo 14, starting page 400 of the PDF (labeled page 401), we see a table listing which samples were in the weigh bag that constituted the contingency sample, documented bag numbers containing samples put in ALSRC 1006, four additional weigh bags with samples, and the weigh bag with the bulk sample that was placed in ALSRC 1007:



Apollo 15, starting page 32 of this PDF (labeled page 30), we have a table that lists the contents of the two SRC boxes and a separate sample in the BSLSS bag, as well as separate drill stems.



Apollo 16, starting on page 17 of PDF 1 (labeled page xiv), we see a table listing the contents of the seven Sample Collection Bags, the two SRC boxes, and the BSLSS bag:



Apollo 17, starting page 11 of this PDF (labeled page 6), we see a table of samples and their containers, including the Drill Stem Bag, eight SCBs, the two SRC boxes, the BSLSS bag, and one sample from a suit pocket:

Originally posted by FoosM

Originally posted by SayonaraJupiter

TOTAL SAMPLE RETURNED......21 836.086 gm.

They measured down to the micro-gram. Think about that level of detail for a moment... it's incredible.

edit on 4/25/2011 by SayonaraJupiter because: for grammars

edit on 4/25/2011 by SayonaraJupiter because: stupid tags

SJ, what do you think is going on here?

Many strange things are going on here Foos!

The project is also historically resonant in that company founder John Lowry worked with NASA back in the 1970s to improve images as they were sent back live from the Apollo 16 and 17 missions. The ideas and methods used then formed the seed that grew into The Lowry Process.
"This work for NASA represents the first real effort to apply Lowry Digital's proprietary image processing technology and repair tools outside the entertainment space," adds Inchalik. "The underlying science that John Lowry first invented is now so much more advanced at Lowry Digital, and it applies just as well to the scientific, medical, security and military fields. We're excited by those opportunities."

If the original Apollo tapes were lost - it's possible the moon rocks themselves are not the same rocks that came back into Ellington AFB by two separate jet flights.?

Originally posted by weedwhacker
reply to post by SayonaraJupiter

 

Keep it coming.

With every fine-toothed-comb nit picking effort, you prove the reality of Apollo over and over and over and over again....

"Jarrah White" might get mad....you are showing him to be the fool that we already know (except his two or three "fans" out there...).

You call it nit-picking, we call it research. Have a nice day

Example #1. This photo has been cropped. Why don't they mention it has been cropped? They are presenting it as a fact.
Official NASA picture of AS11-40-5868
[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/b19063f64832.jpg[/atsimg]
Source: images.jsc.nasa.gov...

Title: Astronaut Edwin Aldrin descends steps of Lunar Module ladder to walk on moon
Description: Astronaut Edwin E. Aldrin Jr., lunar module pilot, descends the steps of the Lunar Module (LM) ladder as he prepares to walk on the Moon. He had just egressed the LM. This picture was taken by Astronaut Neil A. Armstrong, commander, with a 70mm lunar surface camera.

Example #2.

Un-official Meisel Photochrome of AS11-40-5868
[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/9af508e78e0a.jpg[/atsimg]
Source: www.artend.com...

Apollo 11 Astronaut "Buzz" Aldrin stepping down to the Moon's surface. This forty-year-old 8" x 8" photograph was printed from a NASA duplicate negative by Meisel Photochrome Corporation within days of the July 20, 1969 first lunar landing.

Example #3.

Hi Resolution Image(s): Print Resolution JPG ( 4.9 MB )
www.lpi.usra.edu...
Do draw your attention to the top left reticle and move down one reticle. There is a very clear anomoly located there. Please note also the very noticible fogging against the dark back ground of space.

Example #4.

www.hq.nasa.gov...
This version of the JPG is 794K.
Draw your attention once again to the top left reticle and try to find it. Can you find the reticle? Can you find the anomoly the same as Example #3?

This is what it looked like in 1971 when Apollo 14 landed on the moon .... on television. ABC News Coverage of Apollo 14 Part 44. I just wanted to let all the Apollo freaks in this thread about this youtube channel which has added all these videos for our enjoyment and knowledge.

This is what it looked like on TV in 1971.
This is history.

Near the end of this video is the famous Apollo 14 golf swing... "miles and miles and miles"

TV history.

Originally posted by nataylor

You know what I find strange by all this.
Lack of uniformity.
In how samples where stored, brought back and catalogued.
I mean take a look at all the chart breakdowns, they are all written-up differently.
That makes no sense. One thing I know about the government, especially in the military, they like
uniformity.

This all looks like its made to purposely confuse people.

reply to post by FoosM


When I looked at the first pdf that nataylor listed for Apollo 11 it said that it was dated in 1977. The re-examination committee was created in 1975... so there is a bit of a huge gap there with the accuracy and timeliness of these inventories.

The reports that nataylor posted are great from a technical perspective. And we all know how detailed NASA can be when they put an effort into it.

What strikes me as the most odd is when NASA takes 6 years to put any effort into cataloging the A11 moon rocks. They made such a big fuss out of vacuum sealed boxes and FLYING 2 JETS to Ellington AFB rather than just one jet. But the 6 years delay for this Apollo 11 moon rock catalogue is rather dubious. Even the preface to the report (still speaking of the A11 pdf) mentions the facts: the PET did a poor job of cataloguing and the 1977 revised 2nd edition catalog is the new official record.

reply to post by WWu777


Personally I think some of the firsts were probably fake. US needed to reach the moon first so it wasn't "claimed" by anybody else who went there first. I have no doubt they went to the moon though in later missions.

Originally posted by OmnipresentEnemy
reply to post by WWu777

 

Personally I think some of the firsts were probably fake. US needed to reach the moon first so it wasn't "claimed" by anybody else who went there first. I have no doubt they went to the moon though in later missions.

That is a great first post, dude. I actually agree with your first two sentences. 2 out of 3 ain't bad

This is the original ABC TV broadcasting of Apollo 14 which is relevant to the moon rock and moon sample discussion recently happening in the thread. In this LIVE COLOR TV FROM THE MOON video, Apollo 14 astronauts are uploading the rock boxes and sample containers into the LEM.

This is a video that we can all enjoy because it is historical in context and it was relevant to the recent discussion.

ABC News Coverage of Apollo 14 Part 45

Sponsored by TANG and BUFFERIN

You know what, If John Young says he went to the Moon, I believe Mr Young went to the Moon. If Neil Armstrong says he went to the Moon, I believe Mr Armstrong went to the moon. And I think, very soon, without a doubt, we'll have "proof" enough for anyone that we've already been there, hopefully with the return missions that will launch before my life is over. And that will be cool because I remember ALL of the Lunar Missions because like alot of folks my age, I was there, and I got to watch them un-fold in real-time. Also, there's a big antenna at NRL that pretty much tells me all I need to know about the Moon. And that fact that the U.S.A. has in fact landed men there, and that with a little non-interference from the Washington Elite, we'll get there again!, BEFORE anybody else!, and that probabaly includes: Australia, China, Russia, Japan, India, and the E.U. Because, you know what? I don't think we'll be offering any free rides to the Moon this time either!

Originally posted by SayonaraJupiter

Interesting video...

Can we take a look at around 9:50.

We will see Shepard near the LM in shadow.
We hear a voice in the background that Shepard is moving across the picture to take photos of the solar wind composition experiment.
@ 10:12 Shepard then goes near the ladder and...

what the hell?

Did he just go down like in quicksand?





Then the transmission goes screwy
And text is placed over him.
In hops Haise and he blocks the view of Shepard still down.

The TV announcer makes the statement that these are pictures of the Solar wind experiment being shot.
Finally Shepard seems to get up and go into the sun.

Ok, so what is going on here?

According to the transcript:

135:02:59 Haise: Okay, that's great; and you can go shoot the solar wind, now.

135:03:07 Shepard: It (the TV camera)'s on the side of a hill; that's a problem out here.

135:03:11 Mitchell: Okay, Fredo, I'm heading back from the boulder field. I've sampled two of the larger boulders in the area. Rocks broken from them and lying on them; and I've taken a pan; and I have maybe a third of a weigh bag full of small rocks from these boulders.

135:03:28 Haise: Okay; very good, Ed. We need to proceed now with the regular program.

135:03:36 Mitchell: Okay.

135:03:39 Shepard: (Now back at the foot of the ladder) What setting would you like on that solar wind shot, Fredo?

135:03:42 Haise: Stand by. (Long Pause)

[While Al is waiting for Fred to give him an answer, he takes the camera off the RCU bracket, grabs hold of the bottom rung on the ladder, bends back, and points the camera up to take pictures of the Earth over the LM. These are AS14-64- 9189 to 9197.]

[Journal Contributor Danny Ross Lunsford notes that Al has captured Venus over Antares in all these images.]

[As Haise begins the next transmission, Ed arrives back at the MET with his weigh bag.]

135:04:35 Haise: Okay, Al. I'd go ahead and use your standard down-Sun picture if that's the direction you're shooting it in. They don't have an input here. (Pause) Okay...
135:04:47 Shepard: All right.

135:04:48 Haise: ...just got an input. They want f/11 at 1/25th (probably means 1/250th).

Sorry, that is not what we see.
We dont see anyone just bending back.
Shepard goes down, like on his knees.
And takes like 10 photo of the Earth.

Why would he have to go down if he simply took his camera off his chest mount?
Secondly, anybody see a camera pointed up?
Did anybody see him take the camera off his chest?
If he did, he did it very fast.

He then goes of course to take a few shots of the Solar Wind wind experiment, which I cant see in the video.

reply to post by SayonaraJupiter


Really???

This is what you have been reduced, to, as an "argument"?

You are deflecting and distracting, obsessing over photos that have undergone many different publication incidences, and of course will be altered depending on the circumstances....the simple act of copying has an effect, in quality....generational loss. NOTHING is being attempted in terms of "hiding" or "deception"......the ORIGINAL, unaltered, unadulterated SOURCE photo is all that matters.

In essence, it is as if you took some Holiday snaps, down loaded onto your computer, then changed the size to fit better into a post on ATS....and I accused you of some sort of shenanigans, like you are hiding an alien or something....because you altered the photo, this is how you are being perceived, here, with this nonsense.