Young Aussie genius whipping NASA in Moon Hoax Debate!

reply to post by ppk55

I am going to have to study up on the secondary radiation effects she mentions, specifically neutron radiation.
It doesn't sound good though.

Well, I was going to say how encouraging that sounded, the "I am going to have to study up.." bit. But, it soured quite a lot, there, with the last sentence. Mind made up before you even started, eh??


SO...good, do "study up" a great deal. Perhaps, finally, the light will shine through the darkness of your bias.

Do be careful, though, to pay close attention to details, and not parrot the Myna bird named "Jarrah".....he has shown himself an utter fool, multiple times over, in this Don Quixote pointless "quest" of his.

Who knows? As you learn more, IF you devote to it as you claim here....you may have an "A-Ha!" moment that will find a solution to the LONG-term exposure problem....the one that IS a valid concern (unlike the relatively short two-week maximum Apollo missions).


Inspiration, if you think about it, can come from nearly anywhere. And, a little-known factoid about early Moon trip strategy planning shows that underdogs CAN make a difference. The "LOR" approach, ultimately used for Apollo, was the idea of one very low-on-the-ladder underlings, not even at NASA....but at one of the contractors.

Thomas Dolan.... was an American engineer who proposed the first fully-developed concept of Lunar orbit rendezvous for the Apollo program while working at Vought Astronautics.

Dolan referred to his LOR study concept, Manned Lunar Landing and Return (MALLR) was largely ignored by NASA administrators until Langley engineer John Houbolt began championing the concept in 1961.

en.wikipedia.org...(engineer)


BTW, "LOR" means "Lunar Orbit Rendezvous". Some higher-ups were against it as "too risky"....but the weight savings, and payload capability was the deciding factor.

Chalk up a win for the "little guy"......

It is amazing, but sometimes that's how engineering and planning projects actually come together into a whole...did I post that video in this thread? I think I did, for FoosM. Look for the video of the NASA engineer, discussing the Space Shuttle enigineering to a University class. Older guy, he ALSO worked on Apollo, has a lot of neat stories....

In an attempt to bring us back into having a proper dialogue, and without resorting to personal attacks, I would like to repeat back to the NASA/Apollo Hoax "debunkers" some of the claims they have made in this thread.

1. NASA "defenders" have claimed that NASA knew enough about space radiation in 1968.
2. NASA "enthusiasts" have claimed that radiation in space was not an insurmountable problem for Apollo missions.
3. NASA "supporters" have claimed that information on space radiation mitigation is common knowledge amongst the space research scientific community.

Apparently, the ISRO scientists did not study NASA's space radiation data closely enough because.....

Radiation Ruination To Be Avoided On Chandrayaan-II, Says ISRO

The intense radiation from the sun that roasted India's first unmanned lunar satellite's key orientation instrument — the star sensor — has raised concerns over the safety of Indian astronauts on the country's first manned space flight, planned around 2015.

Scientists plan to land a robotic rover that will explore the lunar surface in their Chandrayaan-II mission. They are now awaiting the conclusion of ISRO's review meeting to take stock of the Chandrayaan-I mission, including the failure of the star sensors, which will be held later this year. Annadurai admitted that as this was the first time that India had sent a satellite into a close lunar orbit at an altitude of just 100 kms, "we have learned from our experience that we need to improve the radiation shield for the next mission."

At a distance of just 100km from the Moon's surface, any lunar satellite receives an overdose of radiation, primarily the direct blasts from the sun, and secondarily, the reflected radiation off the moon's surface. One of the avenues space scientists must deal with regarding high radiation threats to satellites is to completely close down the satellite's operations. "But we cannot close down the star sensor as that would mean losing the orientation of the satellite, which is difficult to regain later," said Annadurai. The star sensors keep the satellite pointed in a particular direction. This is a key instrument for satellites that can help the camera side pointed at the earth's or moon's surface. Source www.satnews.com...

During the timeframe of late August 2009, shortly before ISRO's satellite lost contact, Chandraayan-I was in a joint operation with LRO.

ISRO, NASA joint test with Chandrayaan-1 had failed news 09 September 2009

The premature shut-down of the Indian Space Research Organisation's Chandrayaan-1 lunar mission on 29 August also brought to a close an interesting joint effort with NASA's Lunar Reconnaissance Orbiter (LRO) where both agencies were deploying US-provided synthetic aperture radars for bi-static observations aimed at finding water ice at the moon's poles.

The experiment intended to make use of the proximity of both spacecraft to each other in their separate orbits around the moon to look down into a deep crater from slightly different angles so as to confirm the presence of ice at its bottom.

The tricky bistatic manoeuvre was carried out on 20 August over the Erlanger Crater near the moon's North Pole. It was timed to coincide with a moment when both spacecraft were only 20 kilometers (12.4 miles) apart.

ISRO should be congratulated," Nozette said. "They did a good job, but the moon is somewhat of a harsh environment." Source www.domain-b.com...

A little more background from Wikipedia...

After suffering from several technical issues including failure of the star sensors and poor thermal shielding, Chandrayaan stopped sending radio signals at 1:30 AM IST on 29 August 2009 shortly after which, the ISRO officially declared the mission over. Source Wikipedia

A little more detail on the equipment involved... Necessary equipment for this "tricky bistatic manoeuvre" is the MiniSAR instrument payload, a payload with connections to NASA and the USA Military Industrial Complex.

Miniature Synthetic Aperture Radar (MiniSAR) is from Applied Physics Laboratory, Johns Hopkins University and Naval Air Warfare Centre, USA through NASA. Source www.isro.org...

When did ISRO make a major news story about the Apollo 15? A mere 5 days before ISRO announced that the craft had become unresponsive due to losing the star sensor.

Scientist Rubbishes Apollo 15 Conspiracy Theory
by Staff Writers
Delhi, India (PTI) Sep 04, 2009
The Terrain mapper camera (TMC) on board Chandrayaan-1, which had an abrupt end a few days back, has sent the prints of landing site of Apollo 15 and tracks of the lunar rovers used by astronauts to travel on lunar surface, a senior scientist associated with India's lunar mission said during a presentation here.

"The images captured by hyper spectral camera fitted as a part of Chandrayaan-1 image payload has reconfirmed the veracity of Apollo 15 mission," said Dr. Prakash Chauhan, who is a senior scientist with Indian Space Research Organisation's (ISRO) Hyderabad-based space application centre.

9 days after this "tricky bistatic manoeuvre" in coordination with NASA's LRO satellite, the Chandrayaan-1 orbiter "overheats", loses contact with ISRO. The possibility exists that ISRO was getting hard data that NASA didn't like and the possibility exists that NASA knocked out the Chandrayaan-1 by blinding the "star sensor" with a space weapon, probably a laser attack.

So to review... ISRO/Chandraayan-I was in a joint operation with NASA's LRO on August 20, 2009. Chandraayan-I fails on August 29, 2009. ISRO makes the claim they have pictures of Apollo 15 landing site on September 4, 2009. Finally, ISRO announced mission ended due to technical difficulties on September 9, 2009.

Did you guys know about this? I have to go read some of the Chandraayan threads now

ISRO Seeks To Allay Concern Over Security

-
by Staff Writers
Bangalore, India (PTI) Oct 22, 2009
Indian Space Research Organisation has said that the arrest of a senior American scientist, who played a key role in the Chandrayaan-1 moon mission, was "no reason for concern" as it had followed all security protocols.
The scientist, Stewart David Nozette who has been arrested for alleged espionage in the US, had no access to any "critical" Indian document, ISRO chief spokesperson S Satish said.

"All security protocols had been followed," he said adding, any foreign scientist visiting ISRO had to have all the necessary clearance and submit all valid documents.

Nozette's visits were restricted to the Mini-Sar, an American scientific instrument that flew on board Chandrayaan spacecraft, he said. National Aeronautics and Space Administration had two instruments on Chandrayaan odyssey.

The US Federal Bureau of Investigation on Monday had filed a criminal complaint against Nozette on charge of spying for Israeli intelligence.

Source: Press Trust of India. Web source www.spacemart.com...

Radiation was not an operational problem during the Apollo Program. Doses received by the crewmen of Apollo missions 7 through 17 were small because no major solar-particle events occurred during those missions. One small event was detected by a radiation sensor outside the Apollo 12 spacecraft, but no increase in radiation dose to the crewmen inside the spacecraft was detected. Solar-particle releases are random events, and it is possible that flares, with the accompanying energetic nuclear particles, might hinder future flights beyond the magnetosphere of the Earth.

source

ppk55 I think your barking up the wrong tree. No matter what I'll take the PhD's explanation of events over your assessment any day.

Solar-particle releases are random events, and it is possible that flares, with the accompanying energetic nuclear particles, might hinder future flights beyond the magnetosphere of the Earth.

Well 11 flights with no radiation problems but your guy says radiation may effect future flights..
How lucky were they with the Apollo missions since, at the time, they knew so little about the sun's effects..?

Originally posted by AgentSmith

To re-iterate:

Originally posted by AgentSmith
To refresh you're rather poor memory, this is the graph of MARIE data taken in orbit around Mars which has virtually no magnetosphere and therefore offers virtually no protection:



The largest peak will be the X3 class flare that occurred on the 20th July 2002:

www.spaceweather.com...

It reached 2866 mrad / day which equates to only 0.02866 Gy / Day. Hardly an issue when it's short term exposure.
You keep being told, hopefully it will sink in one day, the problem with radiation in space is long term exposure. Read it in your head, then repeat it out loud Foos: the problem with radiation in space is long term exposure. Keep doing this until it sinks in.

Again, like with Chandrayaan, how is the MARIE data that you are pointing to relevant for Apollo?

Ironically, in the Autumn of 2003 after a series of particularly strong solar flares MARIE started malfunctioning, probably as a result of being exposed to the solar flare's intense blast of particle radiation. The instrument was never restored to working order.

Wow. So another case of a probe or satellite getting its butt kicked by the Sun. And this probe was supposed to be able to measure for Solar events. LOL. They didnt even see it coming.

The MARIE problem occurred less than 4 hours after the onset of a huge solar particle
event (SPE) which began near 11:00 UT on day 301. Figure 1 shows GOES11 proton
fluxes for this time period, and the continuation of high fluxes into early November. On
day 301, Odyssey lacked DSN coverage from about 11:00 to 16:00 UT, and when
coverage was restored, the DC-DC converter temperature problem was noticed
immediately. It is impossible, to determine the exact time at which the problem started,
but indications of high temperature began at about 14:30 UT. The day 301 SPE was the
second major eruption within 48 hours. The earlier event began about 18:00 UT on day
299 and MARIE successfully recorded most of it. This event did not fully subsided when
the subsequent second event occurred.

Prior to the day 299 SPE, the average measured dose rate was 22.5 ± 4 mrad/day as
measured by the A1 counter and 22.6 ± 4 mrad/day as measured by A1-A2 coincidence
data. The uncertainties in the dose rates reflect the present state of our understanding of
the instrument properties (geometry factor, trigger threshold, etc.) that go into the
normalization factors used to convert count rate to dose rate. The science team continues
working to understand and reduce these uncertainties.

So somehow NASA knew how to shield Apollo but is lost when it comes to smaller probes.


en.wikipedia.org...
hacd.jsc.nasa.gov...

Originally posted by SayonaraJupiter


Nozette's visits were restricted to the Mini-Sar, an American scientific instrument that flew on board Chandrayaan spacecraft, he said. National Aeronautics and Space Administration had two instruments on Chandrayaan odyssey.

The US Federal Bureau of Investigation on Monday had filed a criminal complaint against Nozette on charge of spying for Israeli intelligence.

Astounding.
How far would the USGOV/NASA go to protect lies about Apollo?

Originally posted by FoosM
If you are an honorable person, I expect that you would retract your accusations.
I might make colorful posts, but I dont go around intentionally lying or misquoting people.
I dont need to resort to those kind of tricks to point out the myth of the Apollo moonlandings.
Anybody who has been following this thread will know this.

There's going to be no retraction Foos and here's why:

I added the MARIE data about 10-15 minutes after making my initial post, you replied about 3 hours and 20 minutes later so it was already there when you responded.
In the quote of my original post you used 'acceptable' is spelled correctly. When I went in to add the MARIE data I noticed it had been spelled 'aceptable' by accident and corrected it.
Besides that, in the quote you used I clearly state "I also posted data from a separate space probe some time ago showing radiation levels measured outside of the protective reach of the magnetosphere and as expected they too also showed radiation levels to be acceptable for short term exposure during even major SPEs." which you completely ignore and try and create the impression I am purely talking about RADOM.
You've been caught out, please don't make the situation worse by lying further.

Originally posted by FoosM

How far would the USGOV/NASA go to protect lies about Apollo?

The bigger secret is the Air Force's nuclear pulsed engined Aurora which did go to the moon...but everyone DIED from that first little mis-adventure. If the public knew about that they would have demanded no further space exploration. Gotta break a few eggs to make an omelette...so those poor guys died and never even made it to the history books to be remembered.

Many of our guys in the nuclear field all die within 20-25 years due to what they've been doing. We go to great lengths to protect those little dirty facts.

reply to post by FoosM


This occurred around the 300th day of the mission, the accumulative effects from numerous SPEs will eventually take their toll. However it does not change the fact that the SPE's were not powerful enough to cause any noticeable damage to a human being, based on the data returned by the instrument while it was still functional for the nearly 300 days prior. It even says in your quote that the normal background radiation levels, during solar maximum, and in-between flares was just over 20 mrads / day. Not an issue at all, so any theories that the background radiation levels in space are beyond acceptable is proven wrong by that alone.
Let me try and illustrate why the instrument failing due to the SPEs is not relevant to how harmful they are to human beings in a way you may understand by using static electricity as an example.
If you put on an anorak and jump around and then touch something that's grounded there will be a little spark, ok? Now do the same and touch the motherboard of a computer, it stops working doesn't it? But you're not dead are you?
Are the SDO, GOES, SOHO all damaged and broken? No, they aren't. Are they constantly being bombarded at close range by SPEs from the sun? Yes, they are. So all you have proven is the design of the MARIE experiment in protecting it from the radiation was flawed, nothing more.

Originally posted by FoosM

Originally posted by SayonaraJupiter


Nozette's visits were restricted to the Mini-Sar, an American scientific instrument that flew on board Chandrayaan spacecraft, he said. National Aeronautics and Space Administration had two instruments on Chandrayaan odyssey.

The US Federal Bureau of Investigation on Monday had filed a criminal complaint against Nozette on charge of spying for Israeli intelligence.

Astounding.
How far would the USGOV/NASA go to protect lies about Apollo?

Kill astronauts? I hope not. I don't even want to think about that. The NASA testimony (Frank Borman) about Apollo 1 and the oxygen environment makes me a bit nauseated

Originally posted by AgentSmith
reply to post by FoosM

 

So all you have proven is the design of the MARIE experiment in protecting it from the radiation was flawed, nothing more.

Chandrayaan-I also suffered the same fate. At an unlikely time. When other satellites owned by NASA are operating and functioning normally several other satellites owned by foreign countries are getting knocked out by lasers when they get too close to the *very sensitive* Apollo landing sites. It is therefore NASA's top priority to control every piece of historical data, every single byte of data, with regard to moon data.

NASA ESPIONAGE on Chandraayan-I

reply to post by SayonaraJupiter

Chandrayaan-I also suffered the same fate. At an unlikely time. When other satellites owned by NASA are operating and functioning normally several other satellites owned by foreign countries are getting knocked out by lasers when they get too close to the *very sensitive* Apollo landing sites. It is therefore NASA's top priority to control every piece of historical data, every single byte of data, with regard to moon data.

NASA ESPIONAGE on Chandraayan-I

Either that, or the fledgling Indian space agency made a few mistakes when designing their first lunar probe. The "deadly radiation" in this case was infra-red: not hard gamma, not neutron radiation, but heat. Do you honestly believe that the US has a space weapon that can target something in orbit around the Moon? How do you reconcile that with their otherwise primitive technology? How can a country that can swat a tiny little probe in orbit around the Moon with a death ray not be capable of landing a man there? Incidentally, why would the FBI arrest someone for espionage if he were acting as a saboteur under American orders? Even the KGB would have given him a dacha. If you're going to write science fiction, make it consistent.

reply to post by Pervius

The bigger secret is the Air Force's nuclear pulsed engined Aurora which did go to the moon...but everyone DIED from that first little mis-adventure. If the public knew about that they would have demanded no further space exploration. Gotta break a few eggs to make an omelette...so those poor guys died and never even made it to the history books to be remembered.

Many of our guys in the nuclear field all die within 20-25 years due to what they've been doing. We go to great lengths to protect those little dirty facts.

If the public doesn't know about it, how do you know about it? And please explain to me how a craft that uses "nuclear pulse" propulsion could reach the Moon unobserved. Project Orion's nuclear pulse propulsion would have consisted of detonating a series of hydrogen bombs. Such a system would draw a great deal of attention to itself, don't you think?

reply to post by SayonaraJupiter


For crying out loud, you are barking up at trees.....trees that are just waving in the wind.

Tell us.....about India's Chandra 1....IF you are going to make the claim that it failed SOLELY due to the "radiation"....(I won't even warrant "lasers fired at it from the Moon" with a response, since it doesn't deserve any)....then you are truly SO determined to find anything, no matter how ludicrous, to "bolster" your preconceived bias. To the extent of rejecting any rational thought and logic.

Do you see why this is so, yet?

Then I'll try to explain. In order for your silly premise to hold, it would mean that NO OTHER NATION has ever successfully flown a spacecraft out of Earth orbit.

What's more, if the "radiation" is so extreme (as you keep trying to assert) that it would prove severely destructive to the Indian's first Lunar attempt...then HOW, please, did the Soviets mount so many successful missions?? To the Moon, and to VENUS!! HOW, please, do the various USA spacecraft manage to perform for YEARS....in many cases, actually exceeding their planned mission "lifetimes"??? (Mars Rovers, Opportunity and Spirit, for example. VOYAGER!!!).

The Voyager 1 spacecraft was launched way back in 1977!!

Operating for 33 years, 3 months, and 24 days, the spacecraft receives routine commands and transmits data back to the Deep Space Network. Currently in extended mission, the spacecraft is tasked with locating and studying the boundaries of the Solar System, including the Kuiper belt, the heliosphere and interstellar space. The primary mission ended November 20th, 1980 after encountering the Jovian system in 1979 and the Saturnian system in 1980.en.wikipedia.org...

But, back to the Indians. Gee.....Chandrayaan 1 actually accomplished most of its mission!!:

After the completion of all the major mission objectives, the orbit of Chandrayaan-1 spacecraft, which was at a height of 100 km from the lunar surface since November 2008, had to be raised to 200 km due to malfunctions.

"malfunctions"??? Oh, your "lasers".....but, nooooooooo, actually NOT!!

After suffering from several technical issues including failure of the star sensors and poor thermal shielding....

What's that?? "thermal shielding" was poor? Not "radiation" shielding. That is, not the type of "radiation" that YOU are talking about....you know, the high-energy particles and ions and "neutrons" that the "Jarrah supporters" are flapping their gums about. NO.

Rise of spacecraft's temperature
ISRO had reported on 25 November 2008 that Chandrayaan-1's temperature had risen above normal to 50°C, scientists said that it was caused by higher than normal temperatures in lunar orbit.

(Sounds to me like they hadn't calculated the proper amount of thermal reflective shielding.....)

The temperature was brought down by about 10°C by rotating the spacecraft about 20 degrees and switching off some of the instruments.
(skip)
The spacecraft was experiencing high temperature because of radiation from the Sun and infrared radiation reflected by the Moon.

en.wikipedia.org...

I am assuming the part I bolded, "radiation" from the Sun means, also, infrared. Unless any "Jarrah" fans want to claim that high-energy particle radiation from the Sun can raise temperatures on spacecraft electronic components, directly??


I am sorry, but writing pure science fictional accounts of historical events that can be easily verified and fact-checked won't fly here, especially when the attempt is to alter physics too....the physics and reality of the radiaiton environment in space, outside the Earth's magnetic field. This is an environment that has plenty of data collected on it, and those who are mis-interpreting that data, in order to foster this ridiculous "hoax" nosense? What would you suggest we call them? People like "Jarrah" who quote-mine, and lie, and cherry-pick facts to present them out of context, in order to make his ludicrous video "arguments"? What is the proper term to use, when referring to him?

"Charlatan" is one of my favorites. Or, here's a menu:

cheat

fake

con artist

fraud

imposter

mountebank

phony

pretender

quack

rip-off artist

sham

Next, perhaps some in other languages....or better yet, know any Aussie slang terms?? Love the idioms.......

reply to post by backinblack

Well 11 flights with no radiation problems but your guy says radiation may effect future flights..
How lucky were they with the Apollo missions since, at the time, they knew so little about the sun's effects..?

The point was about Solar Flares alone. Plus how you summarize they knew little about the suns effects are you an astrophysicist?

Well are you?

You for all intense purpose have no idea what they knew, you just guess that they DIDN'T know.

reply to post by SayonaraJupiter

Kill astronauts? I hope not. I don't even want to think about that.

I find that you forget things easy like FOOSm does. Do you remember posting the JW radio show where he stated that NASA murdered Challenger astronauts to silence them about space?

Your paper shift is looking more like FOOSM each day. Not only is this a sick tactic to bring such things up, but for you to act like you never supported that fact that Jarrah White Believes it to be OK! Now you are supporting the stance of MURDER AND LIES in NASA.

You make me NAUSEATED! Let me post your quote here once again.

post by SayonaraJupiter

Jarrah discussed not only the Apollo moon hoax but also suggested that the Challenger explosion could have been orchestrated by the government to cover-up knowledge Christa McAuliffe might reveal to the public."

Sure is easy to make such accusations from across the pacific OCEAN in the Comfort of Mommies basement!

I find that Jarrah White must never have been in the military, or done anything other than for selfish reasons, because if he had any HONOR or INTEGRITY he would never have made such claims.

NEXT:

The NASA testimony (Frank Borman) about Apollo 1 and the oxygen environment makes me a bit nauseated

Again this issue has been beaten to the ground the HORSE IS DEAD. They made mistakes! Apollo 1 was a mistake. Without making that mistake Apollo Missions would have never succeed!

Originally posted by SayonaraJupiter

NASA ESPIONAGE on Chandraayan-I

Of course they must have forgotten about all the other countries who've sent probes to the moon, and have reported no conditions that would preclude Apollo:

-old USSR (which included, but aren't limited to, Russia, Belarus, Georgia, Ukraine, Kazakhstan, Estonia, Latvia, etc.)

-Japan

-China

-The ESA (Germany, France, the UK, Italy, Spain, Belgium, Netherlands, Switzerland, Sweden, Denmark, Ireland, Austria, Norway, Finland, Porutgal, Greece, Luxembourg, Czech Republic, Canada)

How are scientists and engineers from all those countries, including India, who would be screaming like banshees if they thought their probe was sabotaged, being forced to keep quiet?

That is a question that has been asked many times and ignored just as many times....

"So somehow NASA knew how to shield Apollo but is lost when it comes to smaller probes.
"

No kidding... funny how that technology has taken steps backwards.

Originally posted by AgentSmith

Originally posted by FoosM
If you are an honorable person, I expect that you would retract your accusations.
I might make colorful posts, but I dont go around intentionally lying or misquoting people.
I dont need to resort to those kind of tricks to point out the myth of the Apollo moonlandings.
Anybody who has been following this thread will know this.

There's going to be no retraction Foos and here's why:

I added the MARIE data about 10-15 minutes after making my initial post, you replied about 3 hours and 20 minutes later so it was already there when you responded.

LOL, I can see why you cant understand how a hoax can be pulled off.
I can respond to your post and then what? Thats right wait to post.
I could have gone for lunch, gone back to work, did some research on the internet on how to respond back to you. But while Im in response mode I cannot see what has been added.

But even so, my post was relevant to what YOU were asking.
And just for good measure I responded to your MARIE post as well.
It all comes down to relevance.
There wasn't any.

reply to post by PsychNurse


Do you think the engineering and stresses on a 8 pound instrument that's been in space for 2 and a half years is a little different than a 100,000 pound manned craft in space for a week and a half?