9/11 is a Poisoned Well - Whats the antidote?

9/11 is a Poisoned Well - Whats the antidote?

Having been part of the so called 9/11 truth movement for nearly 9 years and having observed everything under the sun in 9/11, I conclude that 9/11 is already a completely poisoned well, and incapable of really freeing itself from the sludge and morass it finds itself in. I have no solutions, but I do have some ideas which could lead to a solution. Well over 1/2 the American population feels in some way that 9/11 was a lie, and a fraud. That's a fact. The government run state run media stopped doing 9/11 polls back in 2006 when they no longer served the purpose of showing us as a fringe movement. The last poll showed some 38% of Americans believing they were lied to by our own government.

With those numbers, they grow exponentially faster and faster. This is why they stopped taking polls before they had to officially report the 50% number, which of course would show a simple majority.

The problem is easily identifiable. But hard to comprehend. The problem isn't that we lack any evidence or credible proofs. This is what they want people to believe. If we only had a smoking gun that those in the media could see, and finally see that they have been ignoring the truth and report on this, then... So the story goes. Lets quickly dissect this idea, because the premise is false. And I think most of us all know it.

And we have all sorts of people,the most unpleasant of all people, running around the internet parroting these lies. They use phrases like; This is going to ruin the truth movement... That's bad evidence. That's been debunked and will poison the well. On and on people go with this. We have all run into these people on the net. They are arrogant, self centered, unpleasant and bullies. They will shout you down for so much as expressing an opinion that they don't first pre-approve. You have to have proof! No opinions allowed. Think about this. Because that's 98% of the poison in the 9/11 well right there.

First of all, does anyone here think that the FBI was hot on the trail of seeing bombs and explosives in the WTC, but then heard that someone on the internet was preaching holograms, and then because of this, dropped their investigation? Kind of absurd when you out it that way, isn't it?

The FBI is not pursuing the truth of 911 through investigation because it is corrupt, from the top down. And they were involved in 9/11 inasmuch as they refused any investigation of the things they knew is the truth. Because they were following orders of those who gave them their jobs. And what I just said is true of every Federal agency in America as well. That's the problem here.

The premise of the so called 9/11 movement seems to be we don't have enough good evidence. Or that we have plenty of it, but people with alternate theories are simply messing things up. Not so. The idea of course is to convince people that the evidence isn't good, or that they lack proofs sufficient for the really credible people on CNN or FOX to pick up the ball and run with. Again, not so. The reason is the same. Those in the news networks are all bought and paid for by the government, and it is they who sign the checks of news people through corporate proxy.

We don't have a 9/11 truth movement; By definition it is not a movement. Perhaps it is an awareness movement, but it is not a political movement. By definition a movement has at the very least, a common unified goal or purpose. See below;

10. a series of actions or activities intended or tending toward a particular end: the movement toward universal suffrage.

12. a diffusely organized or heterogeneous group of people or organizations tending toward or favoring a generalized common goal: the antislavery movement; the realistic movement in art.

Ask any 9/11 person what the purpose or goal is, and they will shout out "9/11 truth" that is all comes out. And then they will hold to self opposing views with regard to the goal or unified purpose; We want Congressional hearings. "But they are all corrupt will be the answer shouted back!" Others will bark out "Grand Juries are the answer." And someone will retort that they are secret and they also don't have Jurisdiction over the executive branch. Someone else will snap;" An International Inquiry is the answer." And someone else will shout back that they also lack jurisdiction unless we give it to them and lose our Sovereignty. This is what I mean that the so called movement is self opposed. It opposes the very solutions it seeks. And often the same person with the solution, will be the one to oppose their own solution and slip back into despair.

The 9/11 truth movement is not a movement inasmuch as it has no common purpose, and no common or unifying goal. It also is self opposing. And it moves nowhere as a result. Thus, at its very best, it is an awareness movement. But it needs to become a populist movement.

In my opinion, the best remedy is too long for the 1435 characters left in this post.

But I propose either Full Congressional hearings, and/or a 9/11 Truth and Reconciliation Commission, which would work under many of the same premises as did the South African Truth and Reconciliation Commission. In pursuing these objectives, there might just be a possibility of saving our Republic.

I also have some ideas how we could accomplish the above goals. But am just about out of space in this post. Whats your thoughts?

Cheers-
Phil

Take some solace in that now, 67% of Americans believe there was a conspiracy behind the JFK assassination.

Give it time - and keep at it.

Yes, it is a quagmire full of money makers, arrogant academics and constantly under attack by "debunkers", the mainstream media (more silence than anything) and the movements own members.

It is clear that any hole exposed in the official story will not be big enough to twist the arm of those in denial.

Curiosity is the antidote, and awareness, while our only victory at this point, is still a victory of a magnitude never known before. Their ability to hide like hole-rats, behind line after line of yellow journalist's spin and ignorance is simply rendered irrelevant and futile, in my view.

I might even go so far as to say, that anything of magnitude that happens in the future will be put upon by a profound scrutiny with such a fine-tooth comb as to render any workforce they might have in opposition (or trolling/debunking potential) of it will most certainly be overwhelmed by inadequacy, impotence and awe.

Yes, it is the only victory afforded us from 9/11 so far, and perhaps we can get by on it. As once your mind is free, you see truth all around you, like you've had some kind of explosion in consciousness - a rebirth (if you will). It's dissemination becomes the most tenacious force on earth. No matter how much effort they throw at it, nothing can seem to stop it.

It is certainly a huge and unexpected victory in such an age.

Originally posted by phil jayhan

But I propose either Full Congressional hearings, and/or a 9/11 Truth and Reconciliation Commission, which would work under many of the same premises as did the South African Truth and Reconciliation Commission. In pursuing these objectives, there might just be a possibility of saving our Republic.

9/11 Truth logic.

"The government is all behind this!!"

So what is the answer? A government investigation!!! Yeah!!!

As far as a truth and reconciliation commission goes, I'd love to see who *you* choose to sit on said commission. Would it be - gasp - the same congressional inquisitors you would have called upon in the other option? You know...the government who is behind all this mayhem and murder and $10 a gallon gasoline (wait.,..its only $2.70 a gallon).

The republic will continue and prosper with out any of your ideas.

I think its a great idea. Nobody hangs, as long as everyone tells the truth and truth is told. Perpetrators can exchange their truthful testimony in exchange for leniency and no death penalty.

Original link:

The Truth and Reconciliation Commission (TRC) was a court-like restorative justice[1] body assembled in South Africa after the abolition of apartheid. Witnesses who were identified as victims of gross human rights violations were invited to give statements about their experiences, and some were selected for public hearings. Perpetrators of violence could also give testimony and request amnesty from both civil and criminal prosecution. The TRC, the first of the nineteen held internationally to stage public hearings, was seen by many as a crucial component of the transition to full and free democracy in South Africa. Despite some flaws, it is generally (although not universally) thought to have been successful.

A common unifying goal is what we need, as we will never have a common unifying theory. And in this division they create all sorts of confusion and disorder.

I think a massive march on the Capitol would be a good idea, with demands from the people that the entire Congress and Executive branch resign. And if refused, then perhaps they be physically removed from office and put in prison to rot.

At this time we would nationalize the news industry, and remove all the state run media folks, and give away the news stations to the people, part and parcel. I am speaking here in a very short process, perhaps 30 days.

We dismantle the FBI and the CIA and every other Federal agency; Some of them being replaced with qualified honest people, and some Federal agencies simply eliminated once and for all.

A lottery could be held, where people are chosen at random to fill the vacancies, and those that wish not to fill those vacancies for whatever reason, would pass, and someone else be chosen.

That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security

This beats whining and arguing about 911 for the next 25 years with no answers. Personally I think it is time we altered or abolished the present form of government as its design is to reduce us into absolute despotism.

Forest fires often start with a single small spark. Sometimes all that is needed is for a single person to put forth the idea, and peoples to say, ya, its about time we took control back of our own out of control government. It is our right to alter or abolish our government. And think its about time we did so. While our Republic can still be saved.

Cheers-
Phil

Originally posted by phil jayhan
They will shout you down for so much as expressing an opinion that they don't first pre-approve. You have to have proof! No opinions allowed. Think about this. Because that's 98% of the poison in the 9/11 well right there.

So the major problem with 9/11 Truth is that you're not allowed to just spout out any baseless nonsense you feel like chucking around?

I think that might be more of a problem for P Jayhan, given his predilections, rather than a problem for the whole "movement".

reply to post by TrickoftheShade


Thanks for this illustration. It helped make my point. There is never a shortage of people who will harass anyone who holds opinions or presents anything in 9/11 which can't be absolutely proven, 100%, a standard even our Court system falls short of, as to find someone guilty of a crime requires only a preponderance of guilt by a jury which at best is subjective.

What is even more frustrating is this is done, many times by people who won't even use their real names, and often have multiple screen names and alias IP's. People who want to attack and 'debunk' anything in 911, and fail to use their real proper names, should in my opinion be categorically rejected and ignored.

People who want to take the seat of an antagonist or a debunker and refuse to reveal who they are and use their real names have no credibility. And should be treated accordingly and ignored.

Cheers-
Phil

I like your style OP!

Good information and food for thought. You speak the truth and are definitely speaking to the choir for many of us here on ATS.

Also should be noted that more than 60% of the 9/11 Commission believe the OS to be false. I still can't get my head around that fact that more people don't find this to be more of an eye opener.

This is what i think about 9/11 and the people who revolved themselves around the event. I remember when the twin towers collapsed, and i remember hearing the words terrorist for the first time in my life in the 5th grade. When 9/11 happened i thought it to be a very surreal event. I had seen crazy things before on videos like Faces Of Death and sites like Ogrish (liveleak now), but people jumping from buildings out of suffocation, that's insane. I remember when George Bush gave the go-ahead to start our war with Iraq, i was super patriotic. I stayed up all night, and was READY for war, i was really inspired for anything war related to come to our grounds, but guess what? The moment never came. We never had to fight terrorist here in America. We never had to end another foreigners life here in America. Everything about the War was far away. Everything about the war came from the Media, and the soldiers that came back didn't even know what they were fighting for. The suicide rate in the military increased by god knows how much, while we were all here, pending on our daily dose of media coverage. I remember reading articles throughout the last 10 years of soldiers exposing the war for what it truly was. I remember seeing the full blown out angle of when the Iraqis took down the Saddam statue. I remember seeing the news covering what seemed to be live war and fire, while in reality the soldiers were just unloading into the open space. (This was also done in Full Metal Jacket, thanks Stanley Kubrick for showing this). This war is 100% fake when aligned to its public cause. The reason people give less of a # now about 9/11 is because of the benefits they are providing to the troops families. You have to realize that the majority of people under our nations military family is great. Our Government is not demanding a national draft, and its because of this, that people are not revolting like they should. The United States Government is feeding and helping military families, little by little, and that is enough to keep folks at bay. One day when a REAL cause of war breaks out, and they slap a national draft on us, is the day where we will see a real revolt and revolution. Its going to take some time, but right now, the current events are not enough to get people to stop working, stop paying taxes, and start the last #ing war this country will ever need. Little by little the end of our loop here in the states is going to come to a conclusion, and then and only then will we really be faced with the truth. The truth is that we are being trained unconsciously to become war machines, through video games and television. The only few that actually care about 9/11 and the truth is those of us on sites like InfoWars and AboveTopSecret. We didn't need the government to tell us that the towers were blown out of proportion with dynamite. We figured out all this information on our own, and we the people came together and formed our own conclusion. The reason there has been 0 progress is because the administration that we have now, will only try to protect its own workers. Think about it this way... capitalism isn't just in the minds of the common American man. Capitalism is in the eyes of every single human being in power of another. The reason's why we continue to let this happen, are beyond me. George Carlin said it the best during his time here on Earth. That old man knew that the messiah was never going to come, he knew the majority of the churches where just capital organizations, he knew what non profit really meant. Friends here at ATS, there is a club, and you and I are not welcomed. Why? Because of our genes, because of our families, because we want to change the world for the better. Because we don't care too much about making a profit. 9/11 is just going to stay there, until a draft actually comes in. Mark my words, no one will care unless they are being forced to care. We needed money, so we joined the military. Enough said.

The greatest victory for the 911 conspiracy movement would be to discover and produce some tangible evidence for, well.... any of the myriad of proposed conspiracies. Despite the vast number of proposed conspiracies, to date absolutely none of them have any tangible evidence to support them. Quite surprising since there are literally thousands of people believing in 911 conspiracy and perhaps hundreds actively investigating and searching for some. Without that, if the only hope for the movement is to sustain a bunch of deceptive "questions" about the 911 events with the hopes of embedding it into the national conscience, then not only do you have nothing but your foisting a falsehood on the world just to satisfy some preconceived anti-establishment feelings. If that's the goal, it is reprehensible.

reply to post by phil jayhan


Thanks for the post I think you are voicing legitimate frustrations with the current state of the truth movement.

However I disagree with you, in that I believe awareness is extremely important. While I acknowledge your point about the corruption in our government and media I don't believe that is a good reason to declare the truth movement dead or poisoned.

There has been great progress over the past nine years especially on the international front. Perhaps we will get some help from abroad which will make the issue simply too hot for our government and press to ignore. In the meantime more and more people are getting the information and it is powerful and disturbing. Sometimes I think as a group we simply need time and distance to deal emotionally with all that this information requires. It is quite a blow to your average American.

reply to post by Phil Jayhan


This is just part of the gradual intellectual retreat of the "truth movement", isn't it?

You guys started off all excited, thinking that within a few years you'd have uncovered some sort of evil conspiracy. But as the years have passed you've realised that you don't really have anything.

The result has been a downgrading of your goals, a backtracking about what's possible and fevered maneuvers to explain why you don't really need an alternative hypotheses.

I see it time and again here. People unwilling to offer a theory about what happened and why. What I have seen more rarely - and congratulations for wheeling it out, because it's a spectacular bit of doublethink - is the notion that you don't even need any evidence for your crackpot ideas.

reply to post by Leo Strauss


I never said that awareness wasn't important. We can go nowhere without it. The point I was making is awareness does not make a movement. Unified goals make and sustain a movement.

This post is a perfect example of the antagonists who oppose 911 truth and most other truth for that matter. People need to stop listening to them and feeling as though they need to answer every one of their disingenuous questions, wasting and squandering peoples valuable time.

Originally posted by traditionaldrummer
Quite surprising since there are literally thousands of people believing in 911 conspiracy and perhaps hundreds actively investigating and searching for some.

This is a perfect example of what I stated in my opening post. The idea is to make you feel your in the minority,part of a fringe movement, that after 9 years only has a few thousand followers. More then 1/2 of America believes 911 was a lie, and my guess is a great deal more than half. It was at 38% back in 2006. Probably more because the polls they took were skewed and favored the official story and the government and were presented by the state run media, CNN, FOX, etc...

But whats the point, after learning about 9/11 and seeing it for the obvious conspiracy that it is, of arguing over details? It was bombs in the towers. It was nano thermite. No, only thermite. Then another will say mini nukes, bombs and thermite, but those that say nano thermite are shills. Energy weapons it was,quips another.

Who really cares how they did it and who really thinks that arguing on the internet over such trivialities will produce any good results?

If you always do what you have always done, you will always get what you have always got.

Let me emphasize something here. We don't need to prove every little aspect of 9/11. If we feel, as a populace that we don't like the answers given to us, over such a high crime as 9/11, and we feel our leaders are being dishonest about this, we have the right to alter or abolish our government.

It's like when your 7 year old comes home from school 6 hours late, and has an unbelievable tall tale of why he was 6 hours late, and is filled with all sorts of lies, does the parent then feel the need to disprove every single one of the childs lies before grounding him for a month? No. They know they are being lied to, and they punish their child accordingly.

In the same manner we should so act. While we still can.

Cheers-
Phil

reply to post by Phil Jayhan


This is a very recent poll, March 2010, which does not at all support your allegations of widespread and increasing support for conspiracy theories :-

www.angus-reid.com...

reply to post by Alfie1


As most people can see, this poll isn't worth a hill of beans. Notice how they didn't have a simple question, like;

Do you believe that the government lied to the American people regarding the attacks on 9/11?

Rather they do what I believe is a cynical tactic, and use the different events of 911, categorize them, and use this to skew the poll. I do not even believe the intention of those making the poll were honest and genuine.

Also note that this is an online survey, taken by a website which seems to supports the governments story already.

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/24941286b963.jpg[/atsimg]

www.visioncritical.com...

But I can say this much. Even if those poll numbers were genuine and they are not IMO, that's still 45 million Americans.

I will repeat what I said above; If we don't like our governments response to citizen inquiry about 911, and feel we were lied to about this high crime,we have a right to alter or abolish our government.

We don't need to argue with those we placed in office. If we believe they lied to us about and/or had any part in orchestrating the days events, we can simply alter or abolish our government. We don't have to disprove every one of their lies. Nor should we.

But whats the point, after learning about 9/11 and seeing it for the obvious conspiracy that it is, of arguing over details? It was bombs in the towers. It was nano thermite. No, only thermite. Then another will say mini nukes, bombs and thermite, but those that say nano thermite are shills. Energy weapons it was,quips another.

Who really cares how they did it and who really thinks that arguing on the internet over such trivialities will produce any good results? If you always do what you have always done, you will always get what you have always got.

Let me emphasize something here. We don't need to prove every little aspect of 9/11. If we feel, as a populace that we don't like the answers given to us, over such a high crime as 9/11, and we feel our leaders are being dishonest about this, we have the right to alter or abolish our government.

It's like when your 7 year old comes home from school 6 hours late, and has an unbelievable tall tale of why he was 6 hours late, and is filled with all sorts of lies, does the parent then feel the need to disprove every single one of the childs lies before grounding him for a month? No. They know they are being lied to, and they punish their child accordingly. In the same manner we should so act. While we still can.

Cheers-
Phil

Originally posted by Phil Jayhan
reply to post by Alfie1

 

As most people can see, this poll isn't worth a hill of beans. Notice how they didn't have a simple question, like;

Do you believe that the government lied to the American people regarding the attacks on 9/11?

Why waste time on a sweeping general question when they're clearly addressing specific claims of conspiracists?

The truth is that if you ask ANY question that is prefaced with "did the government lie about....", chances are that the numbers will be high. This does not represent the nature of the conspiracy claims, which this poll appears to do.

Your response to the poll is simply to deny the findings as you appear accustomed to doing with anything refuting a preconceived notion of conspiracy. Bottom line: it doesn't matter how many people think or believe in 911 conspiracy. Without supporting evidence 911 conspiracy claims have no credibility.

The 9/11 well is poisoned by disinfo artists creating easily-refuted claims. How are people supposed to take anything from the 9/11 truth movement seriously when there are disinfo artists creating disinfo theories like "pods", no planes at the WTC, "energy weapons brought the WTC down", "nukes brought the WTC down", holograms, tv fakery, "dead passengers look like living, well-known people"?

When someone ignores the factual refutations of such theories and continues to peddle those theories regardless of the facts, then they only have one objective in mind: to purposely distort and defame the credibility of the 9/11 truth movement.

People see those ridiculous theories and they laugh their asses off and then retain the impression that the truth movement is a farce. We need people to look at what the truth movement is saying. Not walk away laughing at ridiculous, easily-refutable nonsense.

Thankfully, the 9/11 truth movement itself is not falling for any of the above disinfo as none of it is supported anywhere in the movement. And we need to make sure that people who are new and just starting to look into 9/11 and the truth movement, know that the 9/11 truth movement does not support the above disinfo theories.












[edit on 29-4-2010 by _BoneZ_]

reply to post by Phil Jayhan


I don't agree with your criticisms of the Angus Reid poll. To ask the question you suggest " Do you believe that the government lied to the American people regarding the attacks on 9/11 ? " is absurdly wide. Most people don't expect their governments to be entirely upfront about anything. Those answering yes could include people who suspect the government has been less than frank about, say, prior intelligence warnings or the military response along with die-hard CTers who believe the government planned it.

What better, as in this poll, than to ask specific questions about the main conspiracy theories ?

Originally posted by _BoneZ_
The 9/11 well is poisoned by disinfo artists creating easily-refuted claims. How are people supposed to take anything from the 9/11 truth movement seriously when there are disinfo artists creating disinfo theories like "pods", no planes at the WTC, "energy weapons brought the WTC down", "nukes brought the WTC down", holograms, tv fakery, "dead passengers look like living, well-known people"?

When someone ignores the factual refutations of such theories and continues to peddle those theories regardless of the facts, then they only have one objective in mind: to purposely distort and defame the credibility of the 9/11 truth movement.

People see those ridiculous theories and they laugh their asses off and then retain the impression that the truth movement is a farce. We need people to look at what the truth movement is saying. Not walk away laughing at ridiculous, easily-refutable nonsense.

Thankfully, the 9/11 truth movement itself is not falling for any of the above disinfo as none of it is supported anywhere in the movement. And we need to make sure that people who are new and just starting to look into 9/11 and the truth movement, know that the 9/11 truth movement does not support the above disinfo theories.

So then,if the towers were brought down in a controlled demolition, then can you explain tome the purpose of the hijackers and planes?

Were the hijackers working together with those that rigged the buildings for controlled demolitions? Did they sacrifice themselves so that the US government could blame it on the planes and jet fuel?

Just seems to be a giant sized hole in your theory the size of Texas, which begs an answer.

Why would the hijackers sacrifice themselves if the buildings were already rigged for controlled demolitions? And what part did the planes and hijackers play?

Cheers-
Phil