The Arizona Bill on ILLEGALS, Answer Me This?

Originally posted by mryanbrown
What ever happened to needing EVIDENCE a crime has been committed. Probable cause is the most destructive phrase to a free-society. Just look at the word... Probable.

"They were PROBABLY breaking a law, so I arrested them."

Probable cause leads to a more indepth investigation of the circumstances that would suggest a crime may have taken place. The investigation then leads to the evidence or lack-thereof needed for an arrest.

For example:
A police officer walks past a row-home in a sketchy area of a city and witnesses a window broken from the outside, the door slightly ajar.

This is probable cause to investigate a break-in.

Once inside if the officer finds a man carrying a TV from one room to another and finds that the man lives there (proved with I.D. if he cannot produce it immediately he may be detained temporarily) further investigation of the window and door might occur but the resident will not be arrested. If the man didn't live there, then you have an arrest.

Probable cause only leads to an arrest when there has been an actual crime, probable cause, though subject to abuse is what allows officers to do their jobs since they cannot be everywhere at once with eyes on everything. It is the trade off for not living in a CCTV nightmare.

SO STOP YOUR DAMN FOOLISHNESS.

reply to post by rcwj1975


Maybe you should speak to the "Scumbags" at Tyson chicken who obviously pay slave wages which would only be attractive to someone in a very desperate situation. If you did so, I'm sure you would soon be out of a job, becasuse Tyson has political connections. How long will it take you to realize that you are an Agent of a very corrupt system? Generally speeding/traffic tickets target the good citizens. Sure you may catch a real criminal once and a while, but mainly your providing revenue for the corrupt system. I was in your shoes, many,many moons ago. How do you stand all the BS?

Originally posted by richierich
If cops would just do their local jobs and forget about what happens to the accused after they are booked, maybe we would see more local crime suppressed. it is NOT your job!! your job is to apply local ordinance and state law...not worry about Federal law and ICE matters.

Thank you! OMG THANK YOU! One of a few obvious voices of reason.

Seriously, since when did the police become IRS enforcement agents?

Originally posted by mryanbrown
reply to post by Trudge

 

Mexicans have kids like popcorn (and drain our system) and the politicians want the parents vote, and the kids. If the parents are illegal, they will just wait for the kids to turn 18 becuase they pop out like 4 kids which is even better than 2 votes the parents would give.

Now see, I think that would be enough evidence to point out, that's racist. And ignorant, beyond any doubt.

But some mods lately seem to be in support of unconstitutional legislation and will remove posts critical of the racism popping up like wildfire in these posts if you don't have a long enough, absolutely direct post.

Hmm ok I guess I could have worded it differently by saying most mexicans are catholics and it seems (in my opinion) that religion encourages more children thus draining our states of much needed money.

added- After reading your edit from you last post it seems that you must already think you know everything there is to know in the world. Let me say growing up both of my parents are hard democrats which made me become a democrat. I am now an independent.

Once I got older and started paying attention to politics I learned that all politics use are emotions like the one you demonstrated with your CAPS to get votes. If you can make people feel in a strong emotion one way or the other than they can get your vote. I thenrealized that all politians lie just to get a vote, they don't care about you or me. If the government would do there job we wouldn't even be having this conversation. They are supose to stop illegals from comming into this country but they don't even care or try very hard to stop this problem. If I was born in Mexico I would be doing the same thing comming to America to get a job but that doesn't make it right. I don't blame the Mexicans, I blame the government.

[edit on 29-4-2010 by Trudge]

[edit on 29-4-2010 by Trudge]

Originally posted by richierich
Here is your answer: There is NOTHING you can do to make sure that an If you want to deport aliens, then join ICE....otherwise get back to protecting and serving the locals, and that means forget all the fed stuff.

I think arresting an ILLEGAL for stealing an American Citizens SS card and using it to destroy her credit is serving the people of my city. So now that I have done that and find that this guy is in fact illegal why not be able to make sure he gets deported FOR SURE? It may be a federal gig to deport, but that is the major issue here. They suck at their job, have for many years and are basically part of the entire problem....so why not allow states to deport once ILLEGALS are found under legitamite circimstances?

As you stated in your post if ICE decides to not deport thats their decision, but OUR problem....so if the middleman keeps pouring water back into our sinking boat, it may be time to throw him overboard so we can actually stay afloat don't you think?

reply to post by sremmos


Your kidding right? They do this to people all the time, no matter the race. Hell, in my neighborhood wearing red while walking down the street can get you pulled over. Even wearing a sweater to protect yourself from the wind can!

It doesn't matter what reason a cop has for pulling you over or stopping you,They'll still find one, Even if it's something small or insignificant.

Even if it is by race they'll find another reason, it doesn't even have to be about race at all.


And by the way, OP, thank you for this post.


Many of us in Arizona are thanking our Governor (not to saying that we actually like her, this just made it a bit easier. Shs...an idiot) for this but can't say anything or do anything about it because of this stupid protesting idiots. You'd think these students here would want to be in school getting an education, but no, any excuse to get out of school and not "waste the day learning." It saddens me, 85% of them don't care at all, they just want out of school. Much ado about nothing, to be honest.


If the feds had stepped up to begin with this wouldn't be a problem. Someone I know, a cop, told me that they refuse to even come out to the police stations unless they have collected more than 5-15 illegals in one spot. The only time they even show up at other times is if it's on the news and it's some truck or house busted with at least 10 of them. Even then it usually takes them hours to even show up at all, if they even do that day or at all. It's sad, but until now nothing was even done about it. Finally at least there is something happening.

The attention might not always be good but at least it gets it out there. People need to know, to realize what is going on. Too many victims, too many unsolved crimes.

And all these unsolved murders from people escaping back over the border.

Originally posted by rcwj1975

As a LEO I need Probable Cause or atleast Articutable Reasonable Suspicion to make a traffic stop or stop someone on the street.
[edit on 4/28/2010 by rcwj1975]

Hey, I'm generally on your side on the illegal immigration issue, but I want to comment on the statement you made which is quoted above on probable cause.

I know the law SAYS that you need probable cause, but I've also seen LEO's fabricate their "probable cause" and even though there were several witnesses that testify in court to the contrary, the judge will say, "Well, the officer says this, so I'm going with his testimony". I work in state government, BTW, so really do know what I'm talking about.

My point is that the legal system is basically a racket that the average person will never be able to win when going up against it, so why all the angst about using it the way it has been set up to deal with this issue?

Surely, no one is really going to say that for the illegal immigration issue alone we suddenly have to play it by the book?

reply to post by eNumbra


Sure, probable cause will only lead to an arrest if cause has been found.

The probable problem?

Probable cause will always lead to a violation of constitutional rights, even if an arrest is not made.

Why don't we instead of having probable cause. Just have "Just cause".
I mean it's just as vague, and would make it soooo much easier for the police.

reply to post by wash222


In the Mexican community you have to be married by 25 and have all your kids, otherwise you're considered an "undesirable old maid." it's disgusting really. A 19 year old with 4 kids, the oldest already 8...sad...how the hell is it even possible?

Originally posted by mryanbrown

Originally posted by rcwj1975
As a LEO I need Probable Cause or atleast Articutable Reasonable Suspicion to make a traffic stop or stop someone on the street.

What ever happened to needing EVIDENCE a crime has been committed. Probable cause is the most destructive phrase to a free-society. Just look at the word... Probable.

"They were PROBABLY breaking a law, so I arrested them."

First off Probable Cause is in the Constitution and you gotta know the definition before you make statements. We DO need evidence to convict someone of a crime...again, do a quick search and read the definition of PC and I think you'll understand what it means because your example is NOT accurate.

Stop looking for people to violate petty traffic statutes to meet quotas. And start arresting people who COMMIT CRIMES.

Already being done, but you do know some of the worst criminals ever caught were caught during TRAFFIC STOPS.

And stop with this probable cause nonsense. P.S. (at everyone else, not the op)

So the constitution is nonsense? I am just confused as to why you think PC is wrong?

There's not actually a law requiring ANYONE to carry some form of ID on them. And until someone can start citing LAWS when they say "it's a law"...

Under what context? Driving, Buying alcohol, entering venues, etc??? Or you mean just going for a walk?

Originally posted by seasoul

When I was younger, I worked shoulder to shoulder with illegals (e.g. construction, greenhouses, landscaping, restuartants, you name it.). In general, they're some of the most gentle / beautiful (heart and soul) human beings I’ve ever had the experience to meet.

Times have changed, today there is a surplus of hands. The work force here is saturated. There's no shortage of illegal laborers, and unfortunately there are just not enough jobs to go around for everyone.

In a way, enough is enough. It’s time to draw the line.

Again I feel the real villians are not the illegal workers but the illegal employers who make out by hiring them.
.

Yes - I agree. Also wonderful people.

However - I know from my own experience working at a meat processing plant in So CA - - the company would no longer hire white people to work in the plant. The longest a white person stayed was 3 weeks. That's reality - not racist. It costs money to hire and train someone.

I now live in an agricultural area in Arizona. I have never seen a white person working the fields. There used to be a legal immigrant/migrant work program. A bus would pick up workers at the border - drive them to the field - then take them home at the end of their day.

What we need AGAIN - - is a legal work program. Crops have to be harvested whether Americans will do it or not.

SW Arizona is the #1 producer of winter vegetables in the United States.

I'm telling you - - - when fresh vegetables triple in price - - - no one but those who know - - - will put responsibility where it really belongs - fencing the border.


[edit on 29-4-2010 by Annee]

Honestly, I feel that local L.E.O's should have the power to deport an individual right then and there. Arizona has the right idea and hopefully Texas will follow suit setting the example for the rest of the United States. Why should he be given a trial? He isn't a citizen of the United States and as far as I am concerned should not be treated as so nor given the same rights as us, for example the right to a trial. Yeah, lets just throw him in jail so the tax payers can waste MORE money and give him a free ride for at least another month.

I don't know about other states, but here in Tennessee it costs the tax payers $215 a day per inmate in jail that's $6,450 a month for ONE person illegal or not. So just so I am clear, we should give this guy a trial which the taxpayers WILL pay for, and we should provide him a place to stay with three meals a day, hot showers and semi-clean clothes? This guy knew the risk he was taking by entering the country ILLEGALLY, I'm sure he understood clearly the actions he was doing and you can rest assured knowing that he didn't give a f*ck about the person who's life he was destroying for his own gain.

A few years ago, I got an intimate look at the inside of one of Nashville's jails. As I was being processed with my fellow shenaniganizers, there was a confirmed ILLEGAL immigrant brought in on DUI charges for processing. He was then taken to a holding room off to the side where I noticed there were roughly 5-6 other confirmed ILLEGALS awaiting deportation from ICE. As I was sitting there, I talked to one of the Correctional Officers and asked if they were really going to be deported, to which he replied, "No, ICE isn't that concerned about deporting them." In fact, as I was sitting there waiting to be led to my cell, I over heard a second conversation between two C.O.'s regarding the ILLEGAL inmates stating that the Tennessee ICE Agent's weren't going to pursue processing for deportation, and it was the local's problem now. A day or so later, as I was out in the general population, I saw a few familiar faces from the group of ILLEGALS that were detained in the holding room, walking around, laughing and enjoying the vacation they were just given, because once their sentence was up, they got to be released back on to the streets of Nashville to resume taking advantage of the system. Most of these illegals are in and out of jail...it makes no difference to them because they KNOW that ICE isn't going to do a damn thing and the local L.E.O's CAN'T do a damn thing about it.

Forget what the government says or thinks, they have the chance to do something about it and they refuse and American's are standing up finally and taking the matter into their own hands, like Arizona and soon to be Texas' new immigration laws. Yet the government rises up and says "we don't like that your doing that." Honestly, it's like training your dog to quit sh*tting in the house, and then getting pissed that it's sh*tting in the backyard.

ICE is a government run agency...why is everyone so surprised that they AREN'T doing anything about it? If the government TRULY wanted to do something about illegal immigration, it WOULD be done, but that's a discussion for a different topic.

reply to post by Annee


But we did have more murders of Americans... two this time, over in New Mexico... Just like the AZ rancher.... it's not the first time, wont be the last...
so let me ask, how many more Americans need to die before we take action? or is losing a few ranchers the price we pay for fresh produce?

Originally posted by rcwj1975
First off Probable Cause is in the Constitution and you gotta know the definition before you make statements. We DO need evidence to convict someone of a crime...again, do a quick search and read the definition of PC and I think you'll understand what it means because your example is NOT accurate.

Uh I never mentioned anything about a conviction. Just the detaining/arresting without evidence of a crime being committed.

So the constitution is nonsense? I am just confused as to why you think PC is wrong?

Uhhhh, also pretty sure the constitution NEVER mentioned probable cause.

Under what context? Driving, Buying alcohol, entering venues, etc??? Or you mean just going for a walk?

Going out in public, as an everyday citizen doesn't require ID.
You can get into the semantics of what a driver really is and why you don't need a drivers license... But for sake of time and arguining. Let's say you do need a drivers license.

But being outside, walking, on the bus, carrying alcohol etc. You don't need an ID.

[edit on 29-4-2010 by mryanbrown]

[edit on 29-4-2010 by mryanbrown]

Originally posted by mryanbrown

Probable cause will always lead to a violation of constitutional rights, even if an arrest is not made.

Did I not just ask you to cease things like this?

Probable cause does not always lead to a rights violation. Without PC the only crimes that could be prosecuted would be ones Police witness themselves or are left with damning evidence enough for a warrant at the scene of the crime itself.

Probable cause is the only thing that allows an officer to investigate the ongoing commission of a crime, otherwise they'd have to wait for it to be reported, investigated and the investigation to turn up enough evidence for a warrant.

Once again it exists because police cannot be everywhere at once and seems a fair trade off for a 24/7 monitoring system run by big brother.

[edit on 4/29/2010 by eNumbra]

reply to post by centurion1211


I have always been one to admit that there is corruption in LE as there is EVERYWHERE, but there are more than a few who take this profession seriously and the procedure seriously.

Making up PC is easy if your willing to lie...I agree, but as anything else eventually you will get caught and well pay for it. This job is so much easier when you simply follow the procedures that are in place and DON'T take it personally.

PC is set in stone, you either have it or you don't and if you DON'T you shouldn'e be making an arrest...

ARS is a different animal. Having suspicion is good and bad. It leads cops with good sense to stop and deter crime before it happens or as it is happening, but this I believe, is the more abused part of LE. What is suspicious to you may not be to me so that is where the problems arise.

Originally posted by Annee

I'm telling you - - - when fresh vegetables triple in price - - - no one but those who know - - - will put responsibility where it really belongs - fencing the border.


[edit on 29-4-2010 by Annee]

This is really sick logic.

You think having cheap vegetables - and strawberries I suppose - trumps all the other negatives from allowing illegal immigrants to stay here and continue to pour in?

Can't wait for you to throw the race card. Oh, too late (see next post).

Just

[edit on 4/29/2010 by centurion1211]

Originally posted by DaddyBare
reply to post by Annee

 

But we did have more murders of Americans... two this time, over in New Mexico... Just like the AZ rancher.... it's not the first time, wont be the last...
so let me ask, how many more Americans need to die before we take action? or is losing a few ranchers the price we pay for fresh produce?

Crime has increased every where. I'm so sure they are all committed by illegal aliens.

Go research drugs on the Canadian border. When's the last time you heard on any MSM about drugs coming from the northern border? Ask yourself why this is not as big an issue as the southern border.

Perhaps because they don't have dark skin.

Originally posted by mryanbrown
Uhhhh, also pretty sure the constitution NEVER mentioned probable cause.

Not sure what constitution you read but here you go....

Amendment 4 - Search and Seizure. Ratified 12/15/1791.

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

Oh and to clarify an arrest is a SEIZURE....just so your clear how this amendment also covers making arrests, not just for searching or seizing evidence.

[edit on 4/29/2010 by rcwj1975]

Originally posted by rcwj1975
reply to post by centurion1211

 

I have always been one to admit that there is corruption in LE as there is EVERYWHERE, but there are more than a few who take this profession seriously and the procedure seriously.

Making up PC is easy if your willing to lie...I agree, but as anything else eventually you will get caught and well pay for it. This job is so much easier when you simply follow the procedures that are in place and DON'T take it personally.

What you say was probably true - right up until the budget crisis started to hit state and local governments. That's when LEO's changed from "to serve and protect" into predators only trying to help their jurisdictions rake in some more money. Women driving alone in nice cars make easy targets, for example. Easy to intimidate, likely to pay. Especially with the judges always on the LEO's side. No LEO is going to get caught doing this. Who is going to catch them, their fellow LEO's also doing the same thing?

Again, I've seen it happen, and way more than once.

Time to wake up and realize that LEO's are no longer your "friends" or there to help you. They're now just a money making tool of state and local government.

[edit on 4/29/2010 by centurion1211]