The Arizona Bill on ILLEGALS, Answer Me This?

reply to post by Everwatcher33


I think the issue is why we don't often involve the criminal court is because that would mean using state laws in most cases. It is just easier to use the INA and send them thru the deportation process than
it is to arrest them on a criminal issue.

reply to post by Everwatcher33


That's assuming they can even find the immigrants file.

That is why no local law agency should ever be the only person to determine if someone is legal or not. There is no way they have all the info. Heck the USCIS usually doesn't have all the info.

What we need to be screaming about in this nation is COMPLETE IMMIGRATION REFORM! FROM THE BOTTOM UP!

reply to post by Everwatcher33


And more money should go to ICE than currently does. There is no need for the amount that USCIS spends for the lack of work they actually do.

Originally posted by Everwatcher33
Actually you don't use the same databases ICE does, FBI maybe, but ICE...no. They use your systems and put some information in NCIC but most of it is stored in immigration systems. You don't have access to most of those...at least the last time I checked.

The information for STATUS is the same. The only difference is ICE keeps MORE files on the individuals themselves for their investigations and follow ups. The STATUS files determining if they are here legally or not are available to anyone with NCIC access, minus their green card numbers, which is stupid. Sure you may not get the in depth personal information, but I don't need that....I just want NCIC to show me that this person is NOT a citizen or has overstayed their welcome.

Originally posted by Everwatcher33
I do have one question though rcwj. What happens when you get someone who has been here legally for a long time and all they have are the old green cards? How do you know if it's fake, don't tell me you can look at the systems because most of the time even the systems immigration uses don't have the information on their status either without looking at an immigrants A-file?

Call ICE and verify the GC number.

The positioning of the person in the photo. (obviously I won't say how or what it SHOULD look like...don't want anyone getting any ideas...lol), The cut of the card, look at the font, wording, spacing, sometimes the material used, and then of course you have the color...since green cards are no longer actually green...

And I am sure there are more indicators. As for expired green cards I think, even though they should be responsible and renew it, their status is still ok to be here.

[edit on 4/29/2010 by rcwj1975]

Originally posted by Identified
reply to post by Everwatcher33

 

I think the issue is why we don't often involve the criminal court is because that would mean using state laws in most cases. It is just easier to use the INA and send them thru the deportation process than
it is to arrest them on a criminal issue.

Yeah I tend to agree but when it comes to inadmissble/excludable aliens they can't go through criminal courts because there are no laws to charge them under since criminal courts can't hear immigration matters. Deportable aliens are another matter, they have to be convicted of an Agg felony by definition under INA 101(a)(43) before it is considered a felony in immigration eyes. The key is conviction or some finding of guilt though.

The problem lies in the transition between USCIS and ICE. USCIS tries to send criminal cases to ICE but I would say ICE rejects 2/3 of those. It's a funding/man power issue. They only take the bigger cases because there is more reward, they don't have time for the small cases. It's sad if if you think about it.

Originally posted by rcwj1975

Originally posted by Everwatcher33
Actually you don't use the same databases ICE does, FBI maybe, but ICE...no. They use your systems and put some information in NCIC but most of it is stored in immigration systems. You don't have access to most of those...at least the last time I checked.

The information for STATUS is the same. The only difference is ICE keeps MORE files on the individuals themselves for their investigations and follow ups. The STATUS files determining if they are here legally or not are available to anyone with NCIC access, minus their green card numbers, which is stupid. Sure you may not get the in depth personal information, but I don't need that....I just want NCIC to show me that this person is NOT a citizen or has overstayed their welcome.

Originally posted by Everwatcher33
I do have one question though rcwj. What happens when you get someone who has been here legally for a long time and all they have are the old green cards? How do you know if it's fake, don't tell me you can look at the systems because most of the time even the systems immigration uses don't have the information on their status either without looking at an immigrants A-file?

Call ICE and verify the GC number.

The positioning of the person in the photo. (obviously I won't say how or what it SHOULD look like...don't want anyone getting any ideas...lol), The cut of the card, look at the font, wording, spacing, sometimes the material used, and then of course you have the color...since green cards are no longer actually green...

And I am sure there are more indicators.

Actually the alien number can be found in NCIC it's on their rap sheets too. You just have to look for it. And no you can't always find info on people, some of these people have been here legally for decades legally and there isn't any info on them in any systems held by either agency.

How is ICE going to help you when they don't want to answer your questions? Or they don't have the info, if USCIS doesn't have the info you won't and neither will ICE. You do know that the older cards has no photo right? There have been different colors, some pink, some white, some green, some a blue type color. A lot of the older ones don't even have a status indicator on them it's just a permanent resident

[edit on 4/29/2010 by Everwatcher33]

reply to post by rcwj1975


Also older cards have no expiration date...

Kinda funny eh? There are a ton of green card types can you identify them all?

Originally posted by Trudge

We are already at 15 to 20 percent unemployment so what do you think another 100 million would do to that number? Also they would now get all of the benifits of being a citizen and would take even more money from the government while trying to find a job (of course there wouldn't be any).

So if we did like you say and make 20 million illegals now legal if they don't have a job they can now get unemployment, food stamps, free housing, etc, and now the 100 million family members will also get the same thing. Ok so if you think our taxes are high now see what would happen to your taxes if that happened. Oh and don't forget there will now be 20 million new illegals to deal with to replace the 20 million we just made legal and I guess if we have it your way we should make them legal as well and wait for the next 20 million to come to make them legal also.

So if we follow what you want then I should be able to break laws and get rewarded also. I should be able to use someones SSN and buy a bunch of stuff and get to keep it because I broke the law and, also break into there house and demand they give me a room to live.......

Now that's just silly. Like I said in my previous posts. There would have to be mechanisms in place to absorb that amount of people into our society.

FYI you can't get unemployment. At least in the state of florida. not sure about other states. Unless you were fired from a job. you have to build up credits and once they run out no more unemployment.

I never said it would be easy to accomplish. If you are worried about them getting freebies from the government. Then mandate that they not be able to recieve any. No food stamps, housing etc.

And your last sentence there is preposterous. I never said that.

However you totally glossed over my other statement. This country is unable to control our borders. How can you stop illegals from comming in if you can't stop them from entering?

Your solution isn't a solution unless you can protect the borders.

reply to post by rcwj1975

There are few subjects as rife with ignorance, bigotry and outright mysticism as immigration law. Talk to lawyers themselves-- immigration law is a black art. It's more obtuse than tax law. I would suggest this is due to deliberate steps taken to undermine state sovereignty.

Unknown to most, the United States federal government has never had legal jurisdiction over who lives, works or breathes air in any of the 50 states. This responsibility lies, and rightly so, with the states themselves. Prior to the ratification of the Articles of Confederation (and later Constitution), each state had its own residency and citizenship requirements. They even issued their own passports. The states, literally and legally, are each on par with any foreign nation. That's why foreign leaders are referred to as "statesmen". Many states still list immigration requirements within their state constitutions. These "states, united", remained such until well after the 15th amendment went into effect in 1870, when clever DC leaders began selling the public on the concept of federal versus state citizenship, and "US" passports as a matter of 'convenience'. The 'national defense' clause in the constitution is also regularly dragged out to rationalize this usurpation of state power.

From that point on, virtually all citizens became federalized citizens under the Uniform Commercial Code, as opposed to free men governed by their own conscience and their respective constitutions. This is when the US flag began to take precedence over state flags in our capitols. Folks assumed it "has always been that way".

Our current immigration problem stems from the fact that after seizing this important power from the states, the federal government has exercised it in an illogical, unfair, and haphazard fashion. Legal applicants wait years to be processed through the morass of bureaucracy and red tape of Homeland Security, while others simply walk across our unprotected boarders and set up house. This has happened for a number of reasons, among them the fact that our leaders no longer view our nation as an independent, sovereign entity worthy of protection (any more than they do the states, for that matter) but rather a loosely affiliated trading block governed by international banks and corporations. See NAFTA and SPP for more on that aspect. For all intents and purposes, the United States no longer exists.

States are hamstrung by Fed 'color of law' statutes claiming authority on this matter as well as the threat of lawsuits and withheld federal funds should they rock the political boat on this issue, or try to practice self help like AZ or TX are now doing.

The solution, like with so many other huge problems we face today, is to simply re-establish the proper, legal and moral right to the states to determine who live and work within their borders. This was never a federal matter, nor was it meant to be. It cannot be resolved by any amount of money, laws, or press conferences coming out of Washington, but by common sense and adherence to that "deeply flawed document" our president has labelled the Constitution.

As far as imprisoning "illegals"-- do we really think we have the unlimited funds to house and feed these people when states are going bankrupt one by one? Saving millions on health care, schooling and welfare to illegal residents makes little sense if we simply spend it on trials and lengthy incarceration which benefit no one.

On the other hand, I am not proposing we turn a blind eye to actual crimes committed by non-citizens. But let's agree to define 'crime' by its truest measure, i.e. "Injury or loss to person or property." We have more than enough laws on the books to cover that.

Get DC out of the business trafficking people like commodities, and watch the problem resolve itself at the state and local level.

Originally posted by Everwatcher33
And just to pose a question to everyone saying it is indeed a criminal offense to be here illegally. Why would AZ have to pass a law to make it ILLEGAL (crimally) to be here in the US if it wasn't already illegal?

Because even the grand state of Arizona has never read the INA nor have they looked to see if there were laws that they could have been using all along.

Frankly I think Arizona isn't interested in Laws as much as they are interested in stopping the influx of aliens into Arizona. And since they know those aliens have a certain "look" it makes it easy to pull them over and question them about their status under this "New" law they have made.

Here is a section of the law:
"For any lawful contact made by a law enforcement official or a law enforcement agency…where reasonable suspicion exists that the person is an alien who is unlawfully present in the United States, a reasonable attempt shall be made, when practicable, to determine the immigration status of the person…"

That is pretty broad and much broader than any other law. So I think Arizona was just interested in randomly asking "darker skinned" people if they are here legally.

BTW Arizona already has a State Law on Human Smuggling which they could have used to arrest those crossing the border.

All that talk about alphabet agencies totally misses the point. They come into play after the fact!

The US currently has technology to make our land border impenetrable, but it is not used. One wonders why? It is obvious to me that an illegal workforce is silently sanctioned by TPTB. Unless we change that mindset nothing is really going to change. It's just window dressing.

reply to post by rcwj1975


I really think it is stupid how they keep the Alien Registration Numbers (A-#'s) so secret within the System.

I believe that anyone with reason (Law inforcement HR of companies, Hospitals, Schools, Etc...) should be able to go online and plug in an A number and within seconds get information about that immigrant.

But I guess computerizing the system is too difficult for those that work there???

reply to post by rcwj1975


They have changed the head position on the green cards several times in the past years. Used to be front on, then it was 3/4 front on, etc.....

I believe everyone with the old greencards should be told they have 1 year to get a new one. If they don't then their status should be revoked.

You have to be harsh and vigilant when it comes to this stuff.

Originally posted by grey580


I never said it would be easy to accomplish.

There is the thing. i have enough hardships on my own.
I have done my part for my country and raised 6 law abiding tax paxing kids.
Why would i ever voluntarily support or even think to help more?
If they won't stay and fight for their own rights in their own country, why would they here? I see no good in taking on their problems.

reply to post by h5mind


True only the states have rights over workers. But the feds have rights over Tax ID numbers and SS numbers. So legality for workers goes right back to the feds in that case.

Loopholes are so lovely and the INA is full of them.

Originally posted by Identified

Originally posted by Everwatcher33
And just to pose a question to everyone saying it is indeed a criminal offense to be here illegally. Why would AZ have to pass a law to make it ILLEGAL (crimally) to be here in the US if it wasn't already illegal?

Because even the grand state of Arizona has never read the INA nor have they looked to see if there were laws that they could have been using all along.

Frankly I think Arizona isn't interested in Laws as much as they are interested in stopping the influx of aliens into Arizona. And since they know those aliens have a certain "look" it makes it easy to pull them over and question them about their status under this "New" law they have made.

Here is a section of the law:
"For any lawful contact made by a law enforcement official or a law enforcement agency…where reasonable suspicion exists that the person is an alien who is unlawfully present in the United States, a reasonable attempt shall be made, when practicable, to determine the immigration status of the person…"

That is pretty broad and much broader than any other law. So I think Arizona was just interested in randomly asking "darker skinned" people if they are here legally.

BTW Arizona already has a State Law on Human Smuggling which they could have used to arrest those crossing the border.

Bingo, you hit the nail on the head.

The only problem I have is with that section. Everything is fine with me, don't care that they made it illegal to be illegal.

Originally posted by Identified
reply to post by rcwj1975

 

I really think it is stupid how they keep the Alien Registration Numbers (A-#'s) so secret within the System.

I believe that anyone with reason (Law inforcement HR of companies, Hospitals, Schools, Etc...) should be able to go online and plug in an A number and within seconds get information about that immigrant.

But I guess computerizing the system is too difficult for those that work there???

It is done that way because an alien number is a good as a SS number. It has a ton of personal information that comes with it. You can steal an immigrants identity with an A number that's why. Don't go giving them out to anyone or allowing anyone access.

reply to post by WhiteDevil013


I agree with you, I was once watching a show on hulu about some guy who spent 30 days with illegal immigrants. They came here illegally had some kids who are legal citizens who go to school in California. Well guess what, she ended up getting a scholarship to go to college for FREE!! For Free!! I am a white women and I can't even get a scholarship to go to college, I have to pay for it, and this little, you know what, gets to go to college for FREE! Her parents are not allowed to be here and she gets to go to college for FREE! How screwed up is that. I was crying at the end of the show because that's not fair at all!!! We have to work our asses off to pay for our kids to go to college and this girl got to go to college for FREE!!!

They plug up our ER rooms, with menial problems, I should know I was once at the ER because of a hernia, and I was seen over a Hispanic women who couldn't speak a word of English while her stupid son was trying to tell the doctor she was vomiting!! My God!! My son had to get his appendix out and they almost passed over him to deal with another Hispanic family who couldn't speak English. I was like uh uh we have insurance don't be blowing us off!

Plus, they brought in gangs, rapists, murders, theives, they take our jobs, and they are still here, getting free rides!! WHY?? All because some liberals are like they are human give them trials, so we can pay for them again to be put in our legal systems sucking up all our tax money, social securities, and all our colleges!! Yeah let's give them more rights!!! If it was an American in another country they wouldn't be treating us this nice at all. I lived in Germany for 5 years, all the Germans that could work on the military bases got the good jobs while the Americans got the crappy retail jobs. At least other countries take care of their own, while we support the illegals. I firmly believe that what AZ is doing, is what should have happened a long time ago, and all states should be doing this, because illegals are everywhere!!!

Okay I am done ranting for now, which I did not fully intend on doing but this is a hot topic for me!! Enough! I am done!

Originally posted by Everwatcher33
Actually the alien number can be found in NCIC it's on their rap sheets too.

Yes IF they have a criminal history....if its their first offense the RAP sheet is no help.

And no you can't always find info on people, some of these people have been here legally for decades legally and there isn't any info on them in any systems held by either agency.

I agree and sometimes they have nothing and there is nothing available, but that is rare and USUALLY on older folks, who in my experiance, aren't the ones causing the problems I deal with.

How is ICE going to help you when they don't want to answer your questions? Or they don't have the info, if USCIS doesn't have the info you won't and neither will ICE. You do know that the older cards has no photo right? There have been different colors, some pink, some white, some green, some a blue type color. A lot of the older ones don't even have a status indicator on them it's just a permanent resident

Well some didn't have photo's and then after WWII they put photos on them...to my knowledge they had photos ever since. Of course I wasn't around back then so if they didn't before 1995 (when I got into LE) then I wouldn't have a clue..lol. As for the colors, yes they were different colors, but to spot a forgery of an older card today is pretty simple considering there has only been 2 styles since like 1990. Plus ALL CARDS had an experation date since I am in LE, so again if they are OLDER cards, I would have to take your word on it since I do not know.

Originally posted by grey580

Originally posted by Trudge


If you are worried about them getting freebies from the government. Then mandate that they not be able to recieve any. No food stamps, housing etc.

Under the law Legal Immigrants can not receive welfare. When you enter the US you file an I-864 which is an Affidavit of support. This means that you can support yourself and your family for the duration of time required to enter and adjust status (ten years). The only time this form is not required is when you become a citizen and only upon completion.

However under the Immigration Reform and Control Act (IRCA) of 1986 the government pretty much left it up to the States whether they gave welfare to undocumented workers.

And I believe under the 1996 act they made it okay for states to just not ask for proof before giving out aid for schooling.