All Roads Lead to Rome

reply to post by Extant Taxon


I think that you might be missing the forest for the trees Extant Taxon, as have several others concerning this thread have also done.

It is entirely probable that Proto could be engaging in mere speculation concerning much of what he posts.
In fact, I think he prefaces many of his statement with those very same words.
Hell... Even I disagree with some of what he has presented as speculation some of the time, but what he has hit the nail on the head with, so to speak, is the extent, reach, and the power of the Roman Empire.

We can argue all day about the certain aspects of his post, but what might be small errors, which seems to be the focus of everyone's argument AGAINST the thread, does not in any way fail to allow the reader to see the bigger picture.

Rome never died, but merely went underground and infiltrated the Christian movement in order to make it its own because it fit their desire for a one world government to a tee.
The eschatological aspect of Christianity makes it the poster child for a blueprint for one world government.

Proto may be presenting speculation regarding SOME points of his OP, but that does not in any way discredit the broad message that he was attempting to convey and that message is, without a doubt, that all roads truly do lead to Rome.

Cheers

Originally posted by xuenchen
sorry!

I was posting the defs as a courtesy to readers who may not have known the meanings.

p.s. AND, I did not quote YOU or address my post to YOU.

Fair enough, though that could have been made clearer. Your reply immediately followed my post and it can be a habit on ATS to reply to posters in this manner, in that a reply to the prior poster is implied by default.

reply to post by Josephus23


You're missing the point here, I would argue. My posts were directly aimed at "Proto," not for his fanbase to answer. Though such conversation is instructive in researching cults of personality in virtual environments perhaps. Why is that certain people feel the need to field questions intended specifically for another poster, in some sort of defensive posturing, running interference? Curious.

I feel I'm not missing the imaginary forest for the non-existent trees in whichever parallel reality it is where the rules of normal discourse and presentation of source material (how about that mysterio cabal only "Proto" is in contact with?) don't apply to the poster who has been furnished with perfectly acceptable queries.
Which he either refuses to answer or simply attacks the person who asks them.

Poor, poor form, old chap.

Historical narratives are formed to withstand criticism and the author of such a narrative is fair game when their methodology, intellectual integrity, source material, and unwillingness to engage in a discussion in the subject is so, so suspect.

I hope this makes my reasons for posting here clearer.

reply to post by Extant Taxon


Yeah it is very poor form, but we've gone through this for well over 100 pages.

The OP has no evidence to back up a lot of his main claims.

A lot of what he has posted at the front can be seen by some as outright lies and/or deluded fantasies.

We are expected to believe he is in touch with this secret cabal.

Etc, etc. We've gone through this, and frankly, I really don't care anymore. He's taken the time to write something up, as far as I'm concerned its only my fault if I swallow it whole, not his. So I haven't swallowed it whole, rejected a lot of what was presented and moved on to some of the more interesting assumptions made at the beginning.

Researching how Roman law is still present and utilized today is very interesting stuff.

No, the OP hasn't proved a lot of things (the fables about Julius Caesar, etc) and I do believe that these are either lies or just baseless stories he has heard from other places and presented here. I do not take them as fact, because I look at what evidence is available in order to form an opinion. There is no evidence, and in fact, there is counter-evidence for a lot of the claims made in the OP, which is why most don't believe some of the elements presented.

Having said that, this thread has opened up my interests into Roman history, and how the financial systems of old have developed and evolved along with national and international law to this present day. And for that I only have the opening piece to thank, with all its flaws, fallacies and fantasies, there is a really interesting list of tangents which one can choose to investigate for themselves.

I'm not trying to deter you from questioning the OP, just saying its been done (viciously, I might add) for over a hundred pages, and its got us nowhere.

You have excellent prose by the way, makes me jealous.

Adios.

reply to post by serbsta


I agree... While it's not all true, it's still an important piece of history that still ties into our life

Originally posted by Extant Taxon
(how about that mysterio cabal only "Proto" is in contact with?)

Conjecture old fellow, no one other than the individual members of the "cabal" know whomsoever they have contacted whether acting as individuals or as part of the group.

Proto may only be the proto contact with more contacties to follow depending on the success or direction taken by the initial experiment or he may be one of many already girding their loins for the fall.

Originally posted by serbsta
reply to post by Extant Taxon

 

Etc, etc. We've gone through this, and frankly, I really don't care anymore. He's taken the time to write something up, as far as I'm concerned its only my fault if I swallow it whole, not his. So I haven't swallowed it whole, rejected a lot of what was presented and moved on to some of the more interesting assumptions made at the beginning.

Researching how Roman law is still present and utilized today is very interesting stuff.

No, the OP hasn't proved a lot of things (the fables about Julius Caesar, etc) and I do believe that these are either lies or just baseless stories he has heard from other places and presented here. I do not take them as fact, because I look at what evidence is available in order to form an opinion. There is no evidence, and in fact, there is counter-evidence for a lot of the claims made in the OP, which is why most don't believe some of the elements presented.

Having said that, this thread has opened up my interests into Roman history, and how the financial systems of old have developed and evolved along with national and international law to this present day. And for that I only have the opening piece to thank, with all its flaws, fallacies and fantasies, there is a really interesting list of tangents which one can choose to investigate for themselves.

That this thread raises interest and investigation into real topics by way of some happy, unintended side-effect is a good point.

Originally posted by serbsta
reply to post by Extant Taxon

 

I'm not trying to deter you from questioning the OP, just saying its been done (viciously, I might add) for over a hundred pages, and its got us nowhere.

Yes, I've seen much of it. My intention here though is to attempt to penetrate that Wall of Jericho that surrounds the fairy summerland the OP merrily inhabits and get him to engage with the real world. Seems a wasted effort but it makes for a worthwhile diversion in terms of conspiratainment whilst I'm waiting for my heating to get repaired. I shiver here in sub-zero temperatures right now, warmed only by the glow of my laptop's screen....

And the heat generated by raising "Proto's" ire.

Originally posted by Thepreye

Originally posted by Extant Taxon
(how about that mysterio cabal only "Proto" is in contact with?)

Conjecture old fellow, no one other than the individual members of the "cabal" know whomsoever they have contacted whether acting as individuals or as part of the group.

Proto may only be the proto contact with more contacties to follow depending on the success or direction taken by the initial experiment or he may be one of many already girding their loins for the fall.

The basis of this entire thread is all "Proto's" conjecture as far as I'm concerned.

Historical Falsehood and Wild Speculation, Nothing More

The OP begins with two demonstrably false claims--of a universal flood and a revival of human culture at Troy--and goes on from there to pile historical falsehood and wild speculation into a tottering tower as topless as those of fabled Ilium, and as irrevocably doomed. I stopped reading at the point where the OP claimed that Athens and Sparta were the chief Achaean (there were no 'Greeks' in the thirteenth century BCE, sorry) instigators of the war against Troy. Wrong. That would be Sparta and Argos, whose kings, Menelaus and Agamemnon respectively, were, according to the Iliad, the leaders of the Achaean expeditionary force against Troy.

Talk about historical howlers! Athens did not become a power in Mediterranean affairs until the late sixth century BCE, hundreds of years (about eight hundred, probably) after the supposed Troy supposedly fell.

The Iliad and the Odyssey are the only contemporary or near-contemporary sources for the Trojan War. Athens is mentioned only once in the Iliad--a poem 15,693 lines long--and the Athenians another five times, all passing references in battle scenes, nothing important. The Odyssey mentions Athens three times--all navigational references relating to Odysseus's voyages, nothing more.

By comparison, Agamemnon, king of Argos, is mentioned repeatedly in nineteen of the twenty-three books of the Iliad. His brother Menalaus, King of Sparta, appears--again, repeatedly--in fifteen of them. It is a wearisome task to count the references to Argos, the Argives, Sparta, etc.

Oh, and did I mention that there is absolutely no evidence for a historical connection between Rome and Troy? The claim that the founders of Rome were refugees from Troy was a political fiction, which was exploited by Virgil in the Aenid to flatter his patron, Augustus Caesar.

If the OP is so poorly acquainted with history and legend that he mistakes Argos for Athens, it's unlikely that anything else he says can be trusted. The enormous length of this thread (though I notice that most of the posts on it seem to be by the OP himself) is a testament to the eager gullibility of a few ATS members. It has no other significance whatsoever.

Originally posted by Extant Taxon

Originally posted by Thepreye

Originally posted by Extant Taxon
(how about that mysterio cabal only "Proto" is in contact with?)

Conjecture old fellow, no one other than the individual members of the "cabal" know whomsoever they have contacted whether acting as individuals or as part of the group.

Proto may only be the proto contact with more contacties to follow depending on the success or direction taken by the initial experiment or he may be one of many already girding their loins for the fall.

The basis of this entire thread is all "Proto's" conjecture as far as I'm concerned.

edit on 29/11/10 by Extant Taxon because: Grammatical error corrected

How does that glib comment advance the discussion, you tried to diminish Proto's work by the implication that the "cabal" was either all in Proto's mind or even a lie.

Proto's conjecture is backed by historical records and documents, this great secret wasn't put together by a couple of ten year olds, to unravel at the first tug from an adult intellect, of course conjecture and secrecy will be involved to suggest otherwise is beneath you and a lazy way of attacking the concept.

reply to post by Thepreye

Now I'm here...

Proto's conjecture is backed by historical records and documents

Nope. See my post above yours.

This great secret wasn't put together by a couple of ten year olds, to unravel at the first tug from an adult intellect

There is no secret, just a crazy conspiracy theory that falls to pieces in the first paragraph.

Originally posted by Astyanax
Historical Falsehood and Wild Speculation, Nothing More

Oh, and did I mention that there is absolutely no evidence for a historical connection between Rome and Troy? The claim that the founders of Rome were refugees from Troy was a political fiction, which was exploited by Virgil in the Aenid to flatter his patron, Augustus Caesar.


... It has no other significance whatsoever.

Yes you did mention, its been mentioned by myself (and many others) throughout the course of the thread. I'm sure its possible to pull up a list of posts and replies to that specific issue through search, but most of it was barrage and deflection, to and fro.

The opening piece is full of holes, historical flaws and conjectures which once pieced together in some incoherent way seem to fit close enough for most to swallow. These historical flaws have been addressed and we've got no where. Virgil's poem being taken as historical fact is just one example.

But I disagree with your point that this thread has no significance whatsoever, I suppose I should first ask what you mean by 'significant' exactly? The beauty of this thread lies in the many pages throughout which have shown many members contribute some very interesting evidence to support a wide range of theories, some loosely linked to the OP, some not.

Look back at the pages where many interesting posts regarding the Papal Bulls, posted by the OP and other members, have shown just how wide spread the Christian-ized Roman Empire has established its boundaries. Whether this translates to actual international law is up for debate, but it is there, in plain writing, in their own words. Look back at the pages regarding constitutional banking and how international banking cartels working through the Anglo-American establishment are still operating effectively today and are administered by an interesting set of laws and codices, laws and codices which have been applied to the populace as well.

Thrashing the entire thread due to specific issues in the OP isn't fair. The thread isn't just the first page, its the 148 pages that have followed since as well, proclaiming the thread as insignificant really isn't fair to the many members who contributed some very interesting information.

With that said... I am of to milk the cows!

Originally posted by Thepreye


Proto's conjecture is backed by historical records and documents.

No it isnt.

Ok... of to milk the cows... seriously.

Originally posted by Astyanax

Now I'm here...

What do you mean by this?

Originally posted by Thepreye

Originally posted by Extant Taxon

The basis of this entire thread is all "Proto's" conjecture as far as I'm concerned.

edit on 29/11/10 by Extant Taxon because: Grammatical error corrected

How does that glib comment advance the discussion, you tried to diminish Proto's work by the implication that the "cabal" was either all in Proto's mind or even a lie.

Proto's conjecture is backed by historical records and documents, this great secret wasn't put together by a couple of ten year olds, to unravel at the first tug from an adult intellect, of course conjecture and secrecy will be involved to suggest otherwise is beneath you and a lazy way of attacking the concept.

You've constructed an argument here to attack that I've never made, in that I never, explicitly or implicitly, made the allegation that "a couple of ten year olds" put this together. I'm not fond of repeating myself, so if you want to know exactly what my argument is go back a page or so.

Also, what is this religious zeal with which certain posters in this thread are defending "Proto" (is he now some sort of mythical entity?) and his grand speculations? I'm fairly sure that I directed queries at him, not his acolytes.
By the way, if you think my characterisation unfair then please stop behaving in a manner akin to that of cult members, defending the guru and his ideology.

Originally posted by Extant Taxon

Originally posted by Thepreye

Originally posted by Extant Taxon

The basis of this entire thread is all "Proto's" conjecture as far as I'm concerned.

edit on 29/11/10 by Extant Taxon because: Grammatical error corrected

How does that glib comment advance the discussion, you tried to diminish Proto's work by the implication that the "cabal" was either all in Proto's mind or even a lie.

Proto's conjecture is backed by historical records and documents, this great secret wasn't put together by a couple of ten year olds, to unravel at the first tug from an adult intellect, of course conjecture and secrecy will be involved to suggest otherwise is beneath you and a lazy way of attacking the concept.

You've constructed an argument here to attack that I've never made, in that I never, explicitly or implicitly, made the allegation that "a couple of ten year olds" put this together. I'm not fond of repeating myself, so if you want to know exactly what my argument is go back a page or so.

Also, what is this religious zeal with which certain posters in this thread are defending "Proto" (is he now some sort of mythical entity?) and his grand speculations? I'm fairly sure that I directed queries at him, not his acolytes.
By the way, if you think my characterisation unfair then please stop behaving in a manner akin to that of cult members, defending the guru and his ideology.

The 2 ten year olds analogy was my own effort to describe such a poorly thought out conspiracy that an investigator such as yourself could unravel it at the first effort, nowt wrong with my comprehension skills so no need to go back to your initial input, I wouldn't want to read it twice any more than you want to repeat it.

I've made, I would guess, less than 12 posts in this thread of thousands and now I'm in some kind of cult that you perceive, no doubt based upon my pun with Proto's name and the fact that he may be the first contact of some "cabal" and thus be their proto contact, err paranoia perhaps.

to Extant Taxon

Also, what is this religious zeal with which certain posters in this thread are defending "Proto" (is he now some sort of mythical entity?)

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
reply to post by Stormdancer777

 

It's this simple Stormdancer, we can save humanity when we heal humanity, and unfortunately if you ever read Proto's Astrological Chart, born on the same day as one Julius Caesar, that task of healing humanity seems to have fallen on me.

Now I did not ask for the job, and the pay sucks!

But if you really read this thread, I have touched on a lot of very powerful things on how we can begin to heal humanity and change the course of the world.


In fact we have become so dysfuntcional few of us believe in ourselves enough to even think we can become the Masters of our own destiny and universe and deserve to even live in it.

That's badly wounded.

It's about forgiveness, another virtue of Christ and Apollo and Caesar himself, so people can begin to stop hating, and mistrusting, and fighting over vanities, and prides, and jealousies, and heal and move forward.

Proto has a a job to do, a big one!

So why not try to help Proto out since it's a worthy cause.

I am not asking for your money, I am asking for your love, and to love everyone, and to forgive everyone, by first forgiving yourself, and everyone to take off their mask, admit what is really going on, and stop playing the game, that is going to destroy us.

Now on the spiritual level that is what Proto is up too, and the Universe would not have given Proto this task, if they thought Proto uncapable of carrying it out!



[edit on 29/4/10 by ProtoplasmicTraveler]

You asked,

Originally posted by Thepreye

The 2 ten year olds analogy was my own effort to describe such a poorly thought out conspiracy that an investigator such as yourself could unravel it at the first effort, nowt wrong with my comprehension skills so no need to go back to your initial input, I wouldn't want to read it twice any more than you want to repeat it.

Since you don't understand that your use of that analogy is an implied argument against my position, and an entirely false on at that, I beg to differ.

reply to post by Stormdancer777


'nuff said.

reply to post by Extant Taxon

Also, what is this religious zeal with which certain posters in this thread are defending "Proto" (is he now some sort of mythical entity?) and his grand speculations? I'm fairly sure that I directed queries at him, not his acolytes.

Actually having read your tortuous overly verbose and insanely repetitive critiques, and diligently scanning them for questions I have yet to discover one put forth in a straightforward lucid way.

Your previous queries asked two months ago were previously answered and your dissatisfaction with those answers is not a particular cause of concern to me.

Evidently you fancy yourself to be some Masonic authority, and seem perturbed no one but you views you in that light. This is not surprising since you are not a Mason and Masonic Scholars who are not Masons tend to be far from the mark because Masonry is actually a Secret Society.

Much of your bellicose meanderings are simply the musings of a mind bound by societal constructs that can not comprehend that a skeptic using scientific principles can not find more information to apply them to Secret Societies because they are in fact Secret Societies that rely on Oral Tradition as much as they do written tradition.

While you utterly fail in most of your conjectures and speculations, I think what you have failed to factor into your current equation is that by design most of your comments are meant to be inciteful and taunt others and to be generally rude and while you have been for the most part aiming at me, some of the generalizations you are casting, are in fact ensnaring other members in that web, who are obviously taking exception in how you are portraying conspiracy theorists in general.

While it is true that I am fortunate to have many friends here on ATS, it is also true that there are a small number of people such as yourself, frustrated and ambivalent that I have rejected their arguments or world views for well stated reasons that they wish not to accept.

I would imagine you are the beneficiary of other such people since in fact you have not posed one intelligently constructed question, nor offered one shred of proof for any counter theories in regards to these things, other than your repetitively stated dissatisfaction with mine, to the point of sheer tedium.

You might want to read the book “How to win friends and influence enemies”.

By the way, if you think my characterisation unfair then please stop behaving in a manner akin to that of cult members, defending the guru and his ideology.

I think your characterization of you being angry and frustrated due to a malfunctioning heater on a cold night is pretty accurate as evidenced by you resuming a discussion with no new questions or statements of fact after previously having had your questions answered two months ago.

This thread now in its eight month of discussion has bred a wide variety of quality and not so quality discussions and led to a body of research that a number of the participants have labored and put much effort into, that they have every right to be proud of and attached too.

While you have overlooked those discussions to primarily focus on your one area of imagined expertise, and your overly angry generalizations and dismissals of ‘fringe elements’ and personal commentaries on their ‘sanity’ is not going to particularly endear you to those who have diligently tried to maintain a quality discussion revolving around quality research.

In the meantime while you fail by and large to recognize these things, these other members have seen over these months a small but regular stream of eclectic critics come and go as they attempt to impose their world view and thinking on the thread, fail, and eventually give up that pursuit as you yourself have done on two previous occasions.

So while your over all demeanor and style might be appealing to a few critics that have also attempted this, and may receive some nominal support as evidenced by a few stars, the bulk of the members who have honestly participated in the thread are likely to see your intrusions simply as the ego driven musings of a member, who by his own admission is an angry and frustrated man, who needs to bolster himself by being diminishing to others.

Anyway having said that, if you do have any serious questions you have not posed and had answered before and are capable of putting them forward in a straightforward respectful way, by all means then do so.

I will certainly answer them to the best of my ability.

By the way you haven’t earned my ire, but my pity.

Originally posted by Astyanax


The enormous length of this thread (though I notice that most of the posts on it seem to be by the OP himself) is a testament to the eager gullibility of a few ATS members. It has no other significance whatsoever.

Not to mention that probably half of the thread is taken up by questions from members which are just ignored by the OP because they don't "Fit" his theory.