what shall the penalty be for an abortion?

Originally posted by Titen-Sxull
reply to post by Sinter Klaas


Never in our known history human population has ever been higher then 2.000.000.000 people. Now we almost have 7.000.000.000

I don't see where you want to go with survival and of the species and all.

I do definitely agree with you that as a species, we must change our ways.
But this has hardly anything to do with abortion IMO.


Edit.
I do go with you on responsibility. It's our responsibility not to take life for granted. I also think it is our responsibility we do not willingly introduce life in a world it is not wanted or safe.

Our current ways leave me to say we do not deserve to survive at all.
I hope we will change. Soon !








[edit on 4/24/2010 by Sinter Klaas]

Don't worry it will never be made illegal. However I see a day coming where it may be made mandatory. I saw an article somewhere that said in ten years down syndrom babies are going extinct simply because their being aborted.

reply to post by skunknuts


So you mean every 1 out of 10,000 is going to be a great option quarterback that might be a journeyman in the pros if he can get his mechanics down?

I'm sold! Pro-Life all the way?

Originally posted by Loken68
Don't worry it will never be made illegal. However I see a day coming where it may be made mandatory. I saw an article somewhere that said in ten years down syndrom babies are going extinct simply because their being aborted.

Well they can determine very early in a pregnancy if a baby will get the down syndrome.
Why would anyone want to decide to live a life with a much bigger energy cost then with a child without down ? And. Why would you want a child to live a life with down ?

Why wouldn't you want a child to live with down.
It's sadly enough only the children who are the least effected by the syndrome that have the biggest problems with it.
Other children are just simply happy living children.

You can even start a tv show. Like life goes on.
This Corky character even became a millionair in reality when he started his own business. He has got down, down.


Mandatory is bad and it worries my. To many things get or already are mandatory.
Or life is lived for us and it looks like we are getting close to only be left as an observer.

We can not allow this to happen.

PS.
Lets go kill everybody with any power. Or nuke TPTB or something

Just joking here but it's no lie that anyone that does what politicians do. Will pay with his life.

Originally posted by Conqueror of Seth

Originally posted by rubbertramp
from my understanding, abortion was brought to america as a eugenics operation by margaret sanger.
mostly targeting minorities, especially blacks.
for some, this may be a good thing.

Your understanding is wrong. Terminating and preventing human pregnancy has been around as long as human beings have. The first people to perform abortions on the American continents were... *drum roll* Native Americans. They had a well studied knowledge of how to terminate pregnancies by using abortifacients, like St. John's wort.

good point, i forgot the 'planned parenthood' part. the mass abortion clinic concept.

Originally posted by rubbertramp

Originally posted by Conqueror of Seth

Originally posted by rubbertramp
from my understanding, abortion was brought to america as a eugenics operation by margaret sanger.
mostly targeting minorities, especially blacks.
for some, this may be a good thing.

Your understanding is wrong. Terminating and preventing human pregnancy has been around as long as human beings have. The first people to perform abortions on the American continents were... *drum roll* Native Americans. They had a well studied knowledge of how to terminate pregnancies by using abortifacients, like St. John's wort.

good point, i forgot the 'planned parenthood' part. the mass abortion clinic concept.

Already debunked that nonsense on the previous page. Thanks for playing, better luck next time.

reply to post by Conqueror of Seth



i noticed that after i replied, there was a couple of quotes posted, and i'm pretty sure in other quotes i remember, she said different.
i'll see what i can come up with.
if not i'll concede defeat.


[edit on 24-4-2010 by rubbertramp]

here;s just a few, this lady rambled quite a bit about here beliefs.

"The most merciful thing that a large family does to one of its infant members is to kill it."
Margaret Sanger, Women and the New Race
(Eugenics Publ. Co., 1920, 1923)

Margaret Sanger (1883-1966)
On blacks, immigrants and indigents:
"...human weeds,' 'reckless breeders,' 'spawning... human beings who never should have been born." Margaret Sanger, Pivot of Civilization, referring to immigrants and poor people
On sterilization & racial purification:
Sanger believed that, for the purpose of racial "purification," couples should be rewarded who chose sterilization. Birth Control in America, The Career of Margaret Sanger, by David Kennedy, p. 117, quoting a 1923 Sanger speech.

On the right of married couples to bear children:
Couples should be required to submit applications to have a child, she wrote in her "Plan for Peace." Birth Control Review, April 1932

On the purpose of birth control:
The purpose in promoting birth control was "to create a race of thoroughbreds," she wrote in the Birth Control Review, Nov. 1921 (p. 2)

On the rights of the handicapped and mentally ill, and racial minorities:
"More children from the fit, less from the unfit -- that is the chief aim of birth control." Birth Control Review, May 1919, p. 12

Originally posted by rubbertramp
just wondering, i had this conversation with a pro-life friend.
i'm pro-choice myself, cause if you make something illegal by law, shouldn't there be a penalty?
so, if abortions are made illegal, and a pregnant woman still gets one, what shall the penalty be?
prison time, house arrest?
shall we restrain a pregnant woman who wants one in order to stop her?
if abortion is murder, would the death penalty be relevant concerning the mother or doctor?

during a search on this topic i didn't find anything leaning this way, link it if it's been covered previously.

I have no stance on abortion. I would rather it not be made illegal, but could care less if it is curtailed severely. I have no real opinion, though.

But, if it were made illegal, the penalty should include a vasectomy for the father who failed to protect himself and his partner from an unwanted pregnancy.

edit to add: it seems harsh, what i said. and that would not seem to match with someone who had no real opinion. However, i am approaching it logically. If we were to outlaw abortion, it would be due to the sanctity of life. Anyone who violates that sanctity should forfeit the capability, right?

[edit on 24-4-2010 by bigfatfurrytexan]

reply to post by ararisq


thank you for the completely thoughtless barely recognizable reply.

It is stupid to suggest that simply because someone is pro-choice, that they do not want to murder babies?

...alrighty then Whatever floats your boat.

Anti-Abortion & Pro-Choice are both flawed movements.

Anti-Abortion advocates propose that murder can take place before birth, which I believe is a fundamental error. How can you kill something that has not been born?

Pro-Choice advocates that mothers are afforded full power and rights to decide whether they want a child or not. The father has no say in the matter, even though the decision affects his life for the next 18 odd years. Who would have thought 9-months of labour is of greater consideration than raising a child?

-------------

How about we create a Pro-Sense movement: If you cannot provide a healthy, loving and disciplined lifestyle for your future kid, then have an Abortion. If you can do these things and feel the experience will enrich your and your partner's lives, then do NOT have an Abortion.

[edit on 25/4/2010 by Dark Ghost]

reply to post by rubbertramp


your post is stunning , OP. You suggest that we may have to monitor women's wombs using the law?
You have serious issues about freedom. Freedom, for a woman, means being free to have a kid if she wants to, OR NOT !
if she got raped, or gets an undesired baby with her bf, does that mean shed'll have to do jail time? come on, this is a twisted judgment.
you should turn Fox News off and look for better information before posting such a crap-post.
you're insulting every woman who ever had to experience abortion.
your pro-life choices only affect you, my friend, don't try to convert other people to your narrowed opinion !
goddamn it !

reply to post by MattMulder


sorry, but i think you misunderstood my opinion.
i'm pro-choice, this is really for those who want to make abortions illegal. i think if they do, then there should be a penalty. if the far right is willing to force their opinion on women, then they should, constitutionally, come out and tell us what the penalty will be.
saying they want to make it illegal, and not discussing a penalty is ignoring the second half of the issue.

Originally posted by Aggie Man
Every pro-lifer should be mandated to adopt and care for ALL unwanted children...see how long they still support pro-life then.

Or here's a crazy thought! How about all those ladies getting abortions close their legs and use protection?

I know right?



P.S.
I'm being half sarcastic here. I personally know two women who are, well let's say not too *shy* when it comes to sleeping around. One has had one abortion so far, the other three. How about taking some responsiblity when it comes to what you're doing?

Of course, those raped thereby force impregnated, I have nothing against your choice to end your pregnancy.

My point is, we should start taking responsibility. We live in a "use and throw away" society where we can easily erase mistakes only to continue to do them again and again and again...

reply to post by Conqueror of Seth


here's some links and quoted for anyone who thinks this woman was anything but evil.

the negro project

the eugenics connection

margaret sanger papers project

"We should hire three or four colored ministers, preferably with
social-service backgrounds, and with engaging personalities. The most
successful educational approach to the Negro is through a religious appeal.
We don't want the word to go out that we want to exterminate the Negro
population, and the minister is the man who can straighten out that idea if
it ever occurs to any of their more rebellious members."
-- Margaret Sanger's December 19, 1939 letter to Dr. Clarence Gamble, 255
Adams Street, Milton, Massachusetts. Original source: Sophia Smith
Collection, Smith College, North Hampton, Massachusetts. Also described in
Linda Gordon's Woman's Body, Woman's Right: A Social History of Birth
Control in America . New York: Grossman Publishers, 1976.
"Our failure to segregate morons who are increasing and multiplying
... demonstrates our foolhardy and extravagant sentimentalism ...
[Philanthropists] encourage the healthier and more normal sections of the
world to shoulder the burden of unthinking and indiscriminate fecundity of
others; which brings with it, as I think the reader must agree, a dead
weight of human waste. Instead of decreasing and aiming to eliminate the
stocks that are most detrimental to the future of the race and the world,
it tends to render them to a menacing degree dominant ... We are paying
for, and even submitting to, the dictates of an ever-increasing,
unceasingly spawning class of human beings who never should have been born
at all."
-- Margaret Sanger. The Pivot of Civilization , 1922. Chapter on "The
Cruelty of Charity," pages 116, 122, and 189. Swarthmore College Library
edition.
"Today eugenics is suggested by the most diverse minds as the most
adequate and thorough avenue to the solution of racial, political and
social problems.
"I think you must agree ... that the campaign for birth control is not
merely of eugenic value, but is practically identical with the final aims
of eugenics ... Birth control propaganda is thus the entering wedge for the
eugenic educator.
"As an advocate of birth control I wish ... to point out that the
unbalance between the birth rate of the 'unfit' and the 'fit,' admittedly
the greatest present menace to civilization, can never be rectified by the
inauguration of a cradle competition between these two classes. In this
matter, the example of the inferior classes, the fertility of the feebleminded,
the mentally defective, the poverty-stricken classes, should not be
held up for emulation.
"On the contrary, the most urgent problem today is how to limit and
discourage the over-fertility of the mentally and physically defective."
-- Margaret Sanger. "The Eugenic Value of Birth Control Propaganda."
Birth Control Review , October 1921, page 5.
"Give dysgenic groups [people with 'bad genes'] in our population
their choice of segregation or [compulsory] sterilization."
-- Margaret Sanger, April 1932 Birth Control Review .
"The third group [of society] are those irresponsible and reckless
ones having little regard for the consequences of their acts, or whose
religious scruples prevent their exercising control over their numbers.
Many of this group are diseased, feeble-minded, and are of the pauper
element dependent upon the normal and fit members of society for their
support. There is no doubt in the minds of all thinking people that the
procreation of this group should be stopped."
-- Margaret Sanger. Speech quoted in Birth Control: What It Is, How It
Works, What It Will Do. The Proceedings of the First American Birth
Control Conference . Held at the Hotel Plaza, New York City, November 11-
12, 1921. Published by the Birth Control Review , Gothic Press, pages 172
and 174.
"In passing, we should here recognize the difficulties presented by the
idea of 'fit' and 'unfit.' Who is to decide this question? The grosser,
the more obvious, the undeniably feeble-minded should, indeed, not only be
discouraged but prevented from propagating their kind. But among the
writings of the representative Eugenists [sic], one cannot ignore the
distinct middle-class bias that prevails."
-- Margaret Sanger, quoted in Charles Valenza. "Was Margaret Sanger a
Racist?" Family Planning Perspectives , January-February 1985, page 44.
"Birth control must lead ultimately to a cleaner race."
-- Margaret Sanger. Woman, Morality, and Birth Control . New York: New
York Publishing Company, 1922. Page 12.
"There is only one reply to a request for a higher birthrate among the
intelligent, and that is to ask the government to first take the burden of
the insane and feeble-minded from your back. [Mandatory] sterilization for
these is the answer."
-- Margaret Sanger, October 1926 Birth Control Review .
"[Slavs, Latin, and Hebrew immigrants are] human weeds ... a
deadweight of human waste ... [Blacks, soldiers, and Jews are a] menace to
the race."
"Eugenic sterilization is an urgent need ... We must prevent
Multiplication of this bad stock."
-- Margaret Sanger, April 1933 Birth Control Review .
"[Our objective is] unlimited sexual gratification without the burden
of unwanted children ... [Women must have the right] to live ... to love
... to be lazy ... to be an unmarried mother ... to create ... to destroy
... The marriage bed is the most degenerative influence in the social order
... The most merciful thing that a family does to one of its infant members
is to kill it."
-- Margaret Sanger (editor). The Woman Rebel , Volume I, Number 1.
Reprinted in Woman and the New Race . New York: Brentanos Publishers,
1922.

well, there's my argument of sangers eugenics beliefs.
i'd be interested in any opposing argument anyone bring forth

Originally posted by Frontkjemper

Originally posted by Aggie Man
Every pro-lifer should be mandated to adopt and care for ALL unwanted children...see how long they still support pro-life then.

Or here's a crazy thought! How about all those ladies getting abortions close their legs and use protection?

I know right?

P.S.
I'm being half sarcastic here. I personally know two women who are, well let's say not too *shy* when it comes to sleeping around. One has had one abortion so far, the other three. How about taking some responsiblity when it comes to what you're doing?

Of course, those raped thereby force impregnated, I have nothing against your choice to end your pregnancy.

My point is, we should start taking responsibility. We live in a "use and throw away" society where we can easily erase mistakes only to continue to do them again and again and again...

How about all those men playing around use contraception OMG what a freaking concept. It really pisses me off when only the woman is told to close her legs and use contraception. How about if the men getting women pregnant "close their legs" and "use protection". Dang it is sure not like the woman get's pregnant all on her own now is it? You know, as far as I am aware, it still takes two, one female, one male for a pregnancy to happen.

That means, duh two people are responsible. The moment a woman can get pregnant without a male partner is the moment men can then be taken out of the loop of responsibility, otherwise, men are just as responsible for any pregnancy as a woman is. And I am not talking IVF.

Women have the right to decide what to do with her own body, if someone does not agree with that, then they can raise the unwanted child and pay for the pregnancy themselves and pay for any issues a pregnancy may cause for a woman.

Those against abortion (personally I don't call them pro lifers), stop trying to control other people, if you REALLY want to stop abortions, step up to the plate and start adopting all these babies and give them the life you think they "deserve".

Originally posted by amazed
Women have the right to decide what to do with her own body, if someone does not agree with that, then they can raise the unwanted child and pay for the pregnancy themselves and pay for any issues a pregnancy may cause for a woman.

Those against abortion (personally I don't call them pro lifers), stop trying to control other people, if you REALLY want to stop abortions, step up to the plate and start adopting all these babies and give them the life you think they "deserve".

This is a ridiculous argument. Saying that one must personally assume responsibility for another's poor choices is foolish and doesn't do anything for your cause.

Personally, I'd see abortion eliminated entirely, even in cases of rape. The penalty would be incarceration at worst, although I can't see it being more than typical manslaughter sentencing.

Additionally, law is interference in one's liberty. Saying one must get consent to have sex with a woman, saying one must not murder another, saying one may not steal from another, etc is all applied moral judgments.

You simply disagree with the application of this moral judgment so let's stop being coy.

Women shoulder the burden of pregnancy alone, whether we like it or not. I do not need to be in her shoes, be a woman, or really care about her situation at all to make a value judgment on if abortion is right or wrong.

I believe it's wrong, seek to eliminate it, and would apply punishment to any partaking in the activity.

reply to post by KrazyJethro


even though i disagree for the most part, i appreciate your conviction.
same with almost any topic, in general people just follow the party line and really don't understand the issues.

Originally posted by amazed
Those against abortion (personally I don't call them pro lifers), stop trying to control other people, if you REALLY want to stop abortions, step up to the plate and start adopting all these babies and give them the life you think they "deserve".

Thats funny i thought all government do is want to control people. It is a two faced remark to say to stop trying to stop others freedoms, when america is out there trying to stop everyone having theres.

reply to post by rubbertramp


You are trying to make it sound like every woman who has an abortion is of non white orientation... Wrong.

Or that this woman some how influences other women to have abortions.. also wrong.

Most women seeking abortion I deal with are mostly of white background, so where is the ethnic culling here?

I think that pointing out that the act of an 'abortion' has been around for thousands of years, is quite a good point to make in this abortion debate.