Christians favor the "rogue" over the "dull faithful clod". So why do they pretend?

The dogma that a repentant sinner -say, the Progical Son-is to be cherished ahead of the merely moral character has great appeal. Like Luther, popular opinion prefers the rogue, once he is tamed, to those dull clods who have resisted temptation.

It is added however:

But if adopted by most people as a rule of life, the sentiment would make for anything but a peaceful society.

So, the best religious examples/converts are people who behaved terribly in society. If being "criminally terrible" precedes conversion, one could view religion as a collection of criminals.

(Quoted from: "From Dawn to Decadence: 1500 To the Present: 500 Years of Western cultural life". Author: Jaques Barzun. Harper: 2001. P. 55.)

[edit on 22-4-2010 by halfoldman]

Peoples respect for the anti-hero over the hero has long been a cultural phenomenon. Men in black, Vin Diesel, girls going for bad boyz, and all the associative garbage connected to popular culture. The fact is that no one was not a sinner, and we all have had "righteousness as rags" at one point in time. The difference between a saint and a sinner is one who wills to continually overcome their sins, and one who embraces them or turns a blind eye to them. Eventually the grey area can be cleared, and a whole lot of nonsense weeded from ones life. Sidestep culture; the devil is such a fraud, and he rules culture. You can't go "through" with a full investigation of the gay issues, without becoming gay - no thanks! I'd rather sidestep that. You can't be an acceptable cultural model without adopting the elements of popular success. You also can't remain unconnected to evil, which is detestable by its own definition, as a part of an ideology that links wholesomeness and evil in common bondage.

So when will we free our souls from demons? They are appointed to us, to keep us anchored to sin. They are also more determinist that we can perceive, and make belief in anything better than their morally low, status-quo a non-permanent achievement. Or is it? Build yourself a plateau of virtue in your life, and see the results! Sidestep culture, sell it back to them if you can. Make it your counter-culture, because their white is black.

Amanda Seyfried Has Red Carpet Reversal
ca.lifestyle.yahoo.com...

reply to post by Northwarden

Quite some astounding statements to digest: so you intimate that saints and sinners really do the same stuff: just the saint knows what he/she does is wrong, and prays about it?

A saint is a reformed sinner, but how better can I put it; the knee-jerk reactions to a societies psycological impacts on our value-decisions, which become value-conclusions, are a conditioning of our minds to impressions which could be as deep rooted as Oscar the Grouch and Grow-over, grover, or from the cowardly antics of Scooby-Do, which we found amusing, or more remembered heroesand anti-heroes such as found in every boys comic collection. We overlook the fantasy labels, andsee they affected reality in an impactful way, and forgive ourselves a re-examination and inquiry for the sake of re-prioritizing our moral standpoints in a manner that is "true to thyself".

MkUltra, Mind Control - there`s some really good threads on it too - that`s probably to root cause - for every thousand who hack at the leaves of evil, only one hacks at the root, Thoreau - of our robbed senses of patience, and the causation of our distraction with pointless volumes of knowledge since. Keeping people wrapt in pointlessness spends for them their currencies of time - a very valuable asset indeed. May I suggest a meritocracy, in the spirit of the Bavarian Illuminati, and unlike them, a religion that already exists and continually draws us back to God. Through His Son, Jesus. Only another can of worms, but more than a label, outdistancing predispositions, and more alive in the hearts of many children than many adults alive today, I feel assured.

reply to post by Northwarden

Wow a great meditation.
After a casual reading however, I'm still a bit unsure on what the "root" of "evil" is or entails.
I figured it was our human foibles like lying or jealousy, but you imply those might be "evil leaves" of some deeper "rooted' evil plant?

In the full Bible churches I belonged to in the 70's I always noticed how the church members looked up "more" to the ones who had been really messed up before being saved. You know - totally out of control with drugs, alcohol and sex. It was really like a banner held up to proclaim the Lord's saving grace, although you were never supposed to outright say that.

Of course, human nature being what it is, I also saw the same mode of thinking used time and time again as an excuse for guys to cheat on their wives (happened all the time) or to just get some on the side if you were single. It just just felt so good to be forgiven all over again!

And.....none of that stuff worked if you struggling with being gay.

[edit on 22-4-2010 by warza]

Let's remember what the Bible says completely, and in this scenario apply the following:

"As it is, there are many parts, but one body.

The eye cannot say to the hand, "I don't need you!" And the head cannot say to the feet, "I don't need you!" On the contrary, those parts of the body that seem to be weaker are indispensable, and the parts that we think are less honorable we treat with special honor. And the parts that are unpresentable are treated with special modesty, while our presentable parts need no special treatment. But God has combined the members of the body and has given greater honor to the parts that lacked it, so that there should be no division in the body, but that its parts should have equal concern for each other. If one part suffers, every part suffers with it; if one part is honored, every part rejoices with it." - 1 Corinthians 12:20-26

Remeber then, that God is perfect fairness as well as perfect justice (demonstrated by the many situations and parables presented in and out of the Bible). Both of which are incomprehensible to us...though I enjoy very much trying.

Pray train study play,
God bless.

[edit on 22-4-2010 by saint4God]

The prodigal returns only to become one of the clods.

I have often thought that really good sinners make the better christain. There seems to be some strange paradox at work here. Some have a hard time listening to someone blow about sin when all they know of it is stealing from the cookie jar. Others rant about sin becouse they remain inslaved to it. Most that have had thier full measure of it and return seem to be another type of expositor.

But make no mistake that the "sinless" drive more back out to the fields than the notorious ex-sinner. No one likes the selfright jackass and hopefully an ex-sinner knows better. Who would be of better use to the father the reformed prodigal or the self justifing elder son?

Where is the root of evil? I would say the answer is an essay, and the nutshell hides the fruit. I think it's a failure to pray, and ask God for a spirit of discernment, and a protection from evil, long enough to study and ascertain where our hidden madnesses or non-distinct characters lay. It is also bourne of an unwillingness to do away with our double-mindedness, our agencies of separate thought and action, which divide our souls, enable our spiritual slavery to concepts of evil, and prevent our will from exerting to see the reasons for escape. I'll include this:

Those within the church who have denied the Lord and have acknowledged the Father only, and have confirmed themselves in that belief, are not in heaven; and as they are unable to receive any influx from heaven, where the Lord alone is worshiped, they gradually lose the ability to think what is true about any subject whatever; and finally they become as if dumb, or they talk stupidly, and ramble about with their arms dangling and swinging as if weak in the joints. Again, those who, like the Socinians, have denied the Divinity of the Lord and have acknowledged His Humanity only, are likewise outside of heaven; they are brought forward a little towards the right and are let down into the deep, and are thus wholly separated from the rest that come from the Christian world. Finally, those who profess to believe in an invisible Divine, which they call the soul of the universe ( Ens universi), from which all things originated, and who reject all belief in the Lord, find out that they believe in no God; since this invisible Divine is to them a property of nature in her first principles, which cannot be an object of faith and love, because it is not an object of thought [1.2]. Such have their lot among those called Naturalists. It is otherwise with those born outside the church, who are called the heathen; these will be treated of hereafter.

4. Infants, who form a third part of heaven, are all initiated into the acknowledgment and belief that the Lord is their Father, and afterwards that He is the Lord of all, thus the God of heaven and earth. That children grow up in heaven and are perfected by means of knowledges, even to angelic intelligence and wisdom, will be seen in the following pages.

I encourage anyone to read this book, and it`s even on-line. Utterly eye-opening to those looking for spiritual direction from God.
www.spiritwritings.com...

Originally posted by halfoldman
reply to post by Northwarden

 

Quite some astounding statements to digest: so you intimate that saints and sinners really do the same stuff: just the saint knows what he/she does is wrong, and prays about it?

What you said brought this to mind. In most places if you are say an ex prostitute that comes to God you are going to have to move out of town anyway. I mean if you stay you are going to be setting in the back row for the rest of your life friend. And dont think you are going to be considered wife material for any of the young church bachelors.

There are no ex-sinners. Who better to forgive sins than a sinner. Who better to understand shortcomings in others, and be accepting of those that fall short...than those that fall short too.

All sins are equal, it is man that defines degrees of sin. Thus, a drug addict or killer is just as guilty as a lustful person, or a gossip, or a liar. Those that attempt being faithful, have placed serving others above serving self... being sensitive to others needs above one's own needs.

Thus, the "dull clod" is not a submissive weakling, but seeking strength to fight the primal urges and knee jerk reactions of a selfish person. Those that attain such a level are respected, because they did what so few can do.

As Jesus said, "Love thy neighbor as thyself."
"Do unto others as you would have done unto you."
"Judge not, lest ye be judged."
"Love thine enemies."
... and so on.

Easier said than done..............God Bless You.

Good words, AlreadyGone.
Second line.

reply to post by Logarock

Yeah. I remember the early 1990's "anti-Satanic" paranoia.
When Christians finally pressured me to join them it was so easy to become an "occult expert" by flashing Black Sabbath and Iron Maiden album covers, and quoting lyrics.
They had a great need for horror and entertainment.
If I did't have a consciense I could have made a career and written books.

From Randomguy, the first mention I saw of this, and a good thing to see. Fifteen minutes of this could be life-changing thanks to his sound understandings.

Former High Priest Satanist Stephen Dollins
video.google.com...#

reply to post by Northwarden

"former" satanist?
my point exactly, i guess just being ex-methodist is usually too drab.
so common people do some sins,
so that the confessional narratives will at least beat Oprah, Dr Phil and other pop psychology that has stolen your methods and thunder.

Can anyone add more adjectives or descriptions?
"I was a smoking, drinking, drugging, whoring, rock 'n' roll, ouija board shuffling, satan worshipping, gay cycle slut from hell.

And then I met Jesus, and now I'm just ex-interesting."


[edit on 22-4-2010 by halfoldman]

Originally posted by AlreadyGone
There are no ex-sinners. Who better to forgive sins than a sinner. Who better to understand shortcomings in others, and be accepting of those that fall short...than those that fall short too.

I know their are no ex-sinners, it was tongue in cheek. None the less you try telling that to about 95% of christains.

reply to post by Logarock


I know, good point. I deal with them every Sunday at church, ...why? That is my mission...we have to tell the truth..there and at ATS.

Originally posted by AlreadyGone
serving self... being sensitive to others needs above one's own needs.

Thus, the "dull clod" is not a submissive weakling, but seeking strength to fight the primal urges and knee jerk reactions of a selfish person. Those that attain such a level are respected, because they did what so few can do.

Really? Is that what its all about? Walking around drawing attention to yourself on some wannabe mother Teresa trip. Ozzing with the humility and stench of the repentant sinner? Self satisfied that you are more understanding than the common selfish riff raff kneejerks? Well God bless your little heart.

What the church needs these days are prople respected for not trying to talk with marbles in their mouth. Pulpits are full of clods, churches are full with clods. Useless clods.

All of this
presumes that
the "rogue" was guilty.

Where as the "dull faithful clod"
reveals his jealousy of forgiveness
and condemns themself for not confessing.

Consider this in Star Wars terms, Episode IV.
What did Han Solo _really_ do that was so wrong.
Was Luke jealous of the audience cheers when at the
last moment Han returns, guns blazing, to save the day?


David Grouchy

reply to post by Logarock


Wow...I can see how "enlightenment" has added a sense of optimism amd acceptance in your words. If only we could be so free from religion as you are, then we would all be equally as happy as you display here.