Organic Produce Hype & Delusions

As an avid gardener, I find much of the obsessionism about organic produce to be hysterical and deluded.

I will say that there are some nasty synthetic pesticides out there, but the same could be said about some that nature produces.

The lunacy I dont understand is all of the screaming about 'synthetic' fertilizer. This is the area in particular that blows my mind.

For instance, Potassium Nitrate is a commonly used 'synthetic' fertilizer. The funy thing is, you can literally take cow/horse/bat/human/etc manure, do a simple extraction process using wood ashes, and you literally end up with potassium nitrate crystals that can be used for making fireworks or whatever. Think about that.

Another key type of fertilizer is Ammonium Nitrate. Oh no, not AMMONIA!? Try this: go pick up a truckload of 'uncooked' horse manure. When he scoops up the load from the huge hot steaming pile, take a whiff of that steam. I dare you! How does it feel inhaling all of that ammonia vapor? Another experiment: wear a thick pair of socks, in clean shoes with clean feet, and go work outside all day in the hot sun carrying things and etc without getting dirt in your shoes. Now take a whiff: AMMONIA. Our bodies excrete the stuff, yet we're all sopposed to lose our minds over it being in the CHEMICAL fertilizer?

So what if some scientists figured out efficient ways to mass produce the stuff enabling widespread agriculture and therefore the food you've eaten your entire life? People talk like its some chemical neurotoxins cooked up in some pharmacuetical dungeon.

I utilize manure etc composts, and I buy organic fertilizers such as bone meal, and especially the bags that have all the micronutrients, but if had some CHEMICAL potassium nitrate I wouldn't be afraid to use it. The fact is enough organics are produced to support the everyday gardener, but NOT the mass scale global agriculture that feeds the world.

The same can be said of organic pesticides. Dont believe me, then why does organic produce cost so much? Try stopping by a health food store and prepare to drop dead at their prices on literally everything in the store. Either the stuff costs more to produce, or they know that enough suckers out there have bought into the hysteria and are willing to blow their hard earned cash.

And then you don't even know what you're getting. Someone close has a Florida agricultural license, and the guy who comes out to inspect his citrus trees also inspects farms / groves / markets of all sizes all over the state. According to him, most 'organic' produce is a joke. You simply don't know what youre getting, and the state(s) don't enforce this little sector of the industry in any way comparable to how they would in ensuring the state has healthy citrus trees.

The real point here is don't get ripped off. I encourage everyone to go out and grow a nice garden, and even strive to do it organically the best you can, as I do. But don't drive yourself mad obsessing all day about not having all organic produce every time you eat. After all, the only produce you can acertain is even organic is that which you grew yourself, and odds are it will be cheaper than the evil SYNTHETIC produce you'd buy at the local market.

[edit on 21-4-2010 by IgnoranceIsntBlisss]

[edit on 21-4-2010 by IgnoranceIsntBlisss]

S & F because I think this is an important topic and should be discussed further.

I agree with you to an extent about fertilisers since as you say most are refinements of natural compounds. Not so sure about pesticides and some other agricultural chemicals however. Some of those can be very nasty.

There are however some organic, no let's not use that word, natural alternatives.

As an example, an extract of 'Horsetail' (Equisetum) can be used as a cure for mildew on roses etc.

I would love to see this thread develop into more details of this sort of thing.

Isn't it the same group of people who are doing other things that we are against? They are the group that is pro MJ, they are also running cults! I know it sounds crazy, but the people you would expect to be on our side are just as much against the good people as they are the government. You have to be careful what movement your apart of. The darker they are the more subtle they are. It's all around us.

The only benefit i see from organic food is heirloom veggies, also growing your food in the sun, from dirt, but don't they do that with everything already anyway?

reply to post by PuterMan


Thanks. It sounds like I need to get some of that horsetail...

For further thought into the idea of CHEMICALS, consider some of the various ways one could produce iodine, which is used in surgery and with open wounds:

Another way is to prepare a potassium iodide solution, and then bubble chlorine gas into the solution. The chlorine gas will oxidize the iodide ions into iodine.
Another way is to mix one part sulfuric acid to one part potassium iodide.

Another way is to mix hydrogen peroxide with hydrochloric acid and potassium iodide.

The hydrogen peroxide in the above can be replaced with sodium hypochlorite, hypochloric acid, or some other oxidizers.
wiki.answers.com...

Yikes, 1 step between chlorine gas and into a wound!? This reminds me of how ammonium nitrate can be used as plant fertilizer to feed people, or add fuel to it to make explosives that kill people.

Now consider the Haber Process, which is the method used to make 1/3 of the worlds fertilizer:

The Haber process, also called the Haber–Bosch process, is the nitrogen fixation reaction of nitrogen gas and hydrogen gas, over an enriched iron or ruthenium catalyst, to produce ammonia.[1][2][3][4] The Haber process is important because ammonia is difficult to produce on an industrial scale, and the fertilizer generated from the ammonia is responsible for sustaining one-third of the Earth's population.[5] Despite the fact that 78.1% of the air we breathe is nitrogen, the gas is relatively unreactive because nitrogen molecules are held together by strong triple bonds. It was not until the early 20th century that this method was developed to harness the atmospheric abundance of nitrogen to create ammonia, which can then be oxidized to make the nitrates and nitrites essential for the production of nitrate fertilizer and explosives.
en.wikipedia.org...

So now you feed this to plants, and somehow the plant is supposed to be bad for you?

How about if you used SYNTHETIC fertilizers to feed off-season cover crops, which are then mulched into 'green manure'?

Synthetic fertilizers are commonly used to treat fields used for growing maize, followed by barley, sorghum, rapeseed, soy and sunflower[citation needed]. One study has shown that application of nitrogen fertilizer on off-season cover crops can increase the biomass (and subsequent green manure value) of these crops, while having a beneficial effect on soil nitrogen levels for the main crop planted during the summer season. en.wikipedia.org...

Now the world of pesticides is another story, which could get more controversial. But for a qualitative glance, consider this:

In China, an estimated half million people are poisoned by pesticides each year, 500 of whom die.[69] en.wikipedia.org...

Now consider that in the US each year 7,600 people die from asprin, or in better context here 17,000 die from illicit drug use. 55,000 die from "toxic agents", 32,000 to adverse presicription drug reactions, and 75,000 to microbial agents. If only 500 die from pesticide poisoning per year in CHINA of all places, then things could be much more worse.

Moving on, how about some natural pesticides?

Do you like limes in your Coroma, or lemon in your water? Guess again!

Limonene and Linalool (Citrus Peel Extracts) - Contain insecticidal compounds that kill many insect pests, e.g., fire ants, and fleas, but may be of low toxicity to mammals. There is some controversy as to their safety and should, therefore, only be used with discretion and proper notification. The two most effective insecticidal compounds are d-limonene, a terpene that constitutes about 90% of crude citrus oil, and linalool, a terpene alcohol. Terpenes are hydrocarbons found in essential oils. They are used as solvents, fragrances and flavors in cosmetics and beverages. Linalool can also be extracted from pine wood. Citrus oils have a fresh floral odor and an oil consistency. Limonene and linalool are contact poisons that heighten sensory nerve activity in insects, causing massive over-stimulation of motor nerves that leads to convulsion and paralysis. www.getipm.com...

The thing about the overall idea of pesticides is that chemicals that harm insects don't necessarily harm mammals.

Take spiders for example. There are over 40,000 different species of spiders. Of the 109 genera, only 4 have venom considered potentially lethal. Despite probably all spider venom being lethal to insects, 98-99% of all spider bites to humans are harmless, and there were only about 100 reliably reported deaths from spider bites in the 20th century.

Now consider coffee. It would be safe to say that a great deal of the types out there who scream about organics also drink coffee.

Organic coffee may be a natural, bean-based, pesticide-free beverage. But did you know that all coffee is filled with chemicals?

Scientists have identified 1,000 different chemicals in a cup of coffee. But how many of the 1,000 chemicals have been tested in animal cancer studies? Only 22--leaving 978 compounds in your morning java about which we know very little. And of those 22 that were tested, were any found to be carcinogens, or cancer-causing compounds? Seventeen of the 22 are, in fact, carcinogens.
findarticles.com...

Originally posted by IgnoranceIsntBlisss
As an avid gardener, I find much of the obsessionism about organic produce to be hysterical and deluded.

I will say that there are some nasty synthetic pesticides out there, but the same could be said about some that nature produces.

The lunacy I dont understand is all of the screaming about 'synthetic' fertilizer. This is the area in particular that blows my mind.

For instance, Potassium Nitrate is a commonly used 'synthetic' fertilizer. The funy thing is, you can literally take cow/horse/bat/human/etc manure, do a simple extraction process using wood ashes, and you literally end up with potassium nitrate crystals that can be used for making fireworks or whatever. Think about that.

Another key type of fertilizer is Ammonium Nitrate. Oh no, not AMMONIA!? Try this: go pick up a truckload of 'uncooked' horse manure. When he scoops up the load from the huge hot steaming pile, take a whiff of that steam. I dare you! How does it feel inhaling all of that ammonia vapor? Another experiment: wear a thick pair of socks, in clean shoes with clean feet, and go work outside all day in the hot sun carrying things and etc without getting dirt in your shoes. Now take a whiff: AMMONIA. Our bodies excrete the stuff, yet we're all sopposed to lose our minds over it being in the CHEMICAL fertilizer?

So what if some scientists figured out efficient ways to mass produce the stuff enabling widespread agriculture and therefore the food you've eaten your entire life? People talk like its some chemical neurotoxins cooked up in some pharmacuetical dungeon.

I utilize manure etc composts, and I buy organic fertilizers such as bone meal, and especially the bags that have all the micronutrients, but if had some CHEMICAL potassium nitrate I wouldn't be afraid to use it. The fact is enough organics are produced to support the everyday gardener, but NOT the mass scale global agriculture that feeds the world.

The same can be said of organic pesticides. Dont believe me, then why does organic produce cost so much? Try stopping by a health food store and prepare to drop dead at their prices on literally everything in the store. Either the stuff costs more to produce, or they know that enough suckers out there have bought into the hysteria and are willing to blow their hard earned cash.

And then you don't even know what you're getting. Someone close has a Florida agricultural license, and the guy who comes out to inspect his citrus trees also inspects farms / groves / markets of all sizes all over the state. According to him, most 'organic' produce is a joke. You simply don't know what youre getting, and the state(s) don't enforce this little sector of the industry in any way comparable to how they would in ensuring the state has healthy citrus trees.

The real point here is don't get ripped off. I encourage everyone to go out and grow a nice garden, and even strive to do it organically the best you can, as I do. But don't drive yourself mad obsessing all day about not having all organic produce every time you eat. After all, the only produce you can acertain is even organic is that which you grew yourself, and odds are it will be cheaper than the evil SYNTHETIC produce you'd buy at the local market.

[edit on 21-4-2010 by IgnoranceIsntBlisss]

[edit on 21-4-2010 by IgnoranceIsntBlisss]

"organic" means you feed the microorganisms in the soil.
"conventional" means you feed the plants with already broken down nutrients.
basically, forget about the plant. if you use organic fertilizers the soil maintains itself ad becomes even healthier. synthetic pesticides kill the soil- literally.
the laws are something else. organic foods can still be radiated, have nanotechnology, and have a certain amount of pesticides.
it's become a marketing technique, i think.


neem oil - even better Azatrol or Azamax- is a great systemic, organic pesticide made from the neem tree. can be used up to the day of harvest.
and it doesn't kill BENEFICIAL (predatory) insects. i love this stuff, though expensive. oh yeah- it's organic....it has to cost twice as much!!


[edit on 23-4-2010 by IandEye]

Originally posted by IandEye
"organic" means you feed the microorganisms in the soil.
"conventional" means you feed the plants with already broken down nutrients.
basically, forget about the plant. if you use organic fertilizers the soil maintains itself ad becomes even healthier.

Ok, fine, but can you explain where we'll get all of that compost and etc, enough to replace all of the chemical fertilizers that feed the world? Even if it could be done, how would the costs affect the economies?

the laws are something else. organic foods can still be radiated, have nanotechnology, and have a certain amount of pesticides.
it's become a marketing technique, i think.

NANOtechnology, in produce? Please explain I'd really appreciate it!

neem oil - even better Azatrol or Azamax- is a great systemic, organic pesticide made from the neem tree. can be used up to the day of harvest.
and it doesn't kill BENEFICIAL (predatory) insects. i love this stuff, though expensive. oh yeah- it's organic....it has to cost twice as much!!

I'm aware of it, but why wouldnt it kill beneficial insects and microrganisms?


[edit on 23-4-2010 by IandEye]

Originally posted by IgnoranceIsntBlisss

Originally posted by IandEye
"organic" means you feed the microorganisms in the soil.
"conventional" means you feed the plants with already broken down nutrients.
basically, forget about the plant. if you use organic fertilizers the soil maintains itself ad becomes even healthier.

Ok, fine, but can you explain where we'll get all of that compost and etc, enough to replace all of the chemical fertilizers that feed the world? Even if it could be done, how would the costs affect the economies?

hahaha- the best compost in the world is HUMANURE yet we crap into the septic system all day long......

the laws are something else. organic foods can still be radiated, have nanotechnology, and have a certain amount of pesticides.
it's become a marketing technique, i think.

NANOtechnology, in produce? Please explain I'd really appreciate it!

Nanotechnology, the science of the ultra small, is up-and-coming as the technological
platform for the next wave of development and transformation of agri-food systems. It
is quickly moving from the laboratory onto supermarket shelves and our kitchen tables
(Scrinis and Lyons, 2007). Therefore we investigated in a literature review and a
comparison of the findings with the EU regulation of organic farming to what degree
nanotechnology can be applied in organic food production. The regulations do not
restrict the use of nanotechnology in general. Because little is known about the impact
on environment and human health, precaution should be taken when it comes to
applying this technology in organic food production.

orgprints.org...

neem oil - even better Azatrol or Azamax- is a great systemic, organic pesticide made from the neem tree. can be used up to the day of harvest.
and it doesn't kill BENEFICIAL (predatory) insects. i love this stuff, though expensive. oh yeah- it's organic....it has to cost twice as much!!

I'm aware of it, but why wouldnt it kill beneficial insects and microrganisms?

amazing, i know. well. azatrol treats the tissues of the plant. predatory insects eat other insects, not the plant tissue.


[edit on 23-4-2010 by IandEye]