The Pentagon Mystery....where has that PESKY plane gone???

Originally posted by The Soothsayer
reply to post by weedwhacker

 

That's true... after having typed my last post, I was thinking (I should probably think before hand, but habits die hard)... the shuttle was designed to withstand heat, whereas a plane isn't. I stand corrected, good sir.

However, if I may add fuel to the fire (heh)... with the pictures of the firefighters and flames dancing about, could people have honestly picked up wreckage while in the middle of an inferno?

Why do you think anyone could pick up wreckage in the middle of an inferno?

They did so afterward - after the fires had been put out and the Pentagon damage area shored up to allow safe access by investigators and those who recovered the wreckage and bodies.


[edit on 19-4-2010 by jthomas]

Thanks for the video link dave..

Problem is the sum amount of all those photos would total an amount that would fit into an average sized pick-up!!

Where did the plane go??

I particularly liked the photo labelled as "cockpit"..hilarious!!


Yup, you truthers crack me up!!

reply to post by benoni


In light of the amateur comments about the perceived lack of aircraft components found at the Pentagon. Some of which weighed hundreds of pounds and would not be recommended to be dropped down the trouser leg.

Can anyone identify a bolt or square inch of material from a missile or drone please ?

So I take it you cant explain away the lack of plane, so youve now turned this into a "hunt the drone"???

Who is the actual amateur here??

Again...where did the plane go??

120 tonnes worth.....vanished.

(except for the odd bits and pieces which anybody would know prove nothing....

The video tape would show everything we have Q's surrounding....yet its not been released.."for the sake of the families.."

Your denial of the 9 11 "conspiracies" speaks volumes to me.......dont worry, i understand boys!!

Originally posted by benoni
So I take it you cant explain away the lack of plane, so youve now turned this into a "hunt the drone"???

Who is the actual amateur here??

Again...where did the plane go??

120 tonnes worth.....vanished.

(except for the odd bits and pieces which anybody would know prove nothing....

The video tape would show everything we have Q's surrounding....yet its not been released.."for the sake of the families.."

Your denial of the 9 11 "conspiracies" speaks volumes to me....

...dont worry, i understand boys!!

You know, there were buckets of Boeing 757 debris found at the Pentagon. Pieces of great weight and pieces embedded in the concrete of the Pentagon by great force :-

www.rense.com...

There were also body parts of the passengers and crew of AA 77 recovered from the Pentagon. Radar and the recovered FDR placed AA 77 at the Pentagon. Air Traffic Control at nearby Reagan Intl Airport placed AA 77 at the Pentagon. Crew of a C 130 in the area identified AA 77 and reported impact with the Pentagon. Approx. 100 witnesses saw a plane impact the Pentagon. Many of those identified it as an American Airlines airliner.

You can hand-wave all that away and retreat into never never land if you wish but it wont change the situation in the real world.

Here's a link that shows a 757 at scale to the Pentagon hole damage area...
SCALE

This site shows photos of airplane wreckage from within the Pentagon...
WRECKAGE

Sometimes you have to see things from both sides of the issue before deciding on an issue. Keep an open mind, be prepared to understand things from an other's perspective.

Thank you The Soothsayer for your links.....

My fave is this one.....very helpful!!

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/caeb4d6a4003.jpg[/atsimg]

Does this look right to you...???

Why are you confused??

Its ridiculous...your belief of the Official Story beggars belief!!

Even a monkey could see that the whole sorry tale is sooo ridiculous that no one of sane mind would even have the audacity to defend it!!

The ridiculous hole punched out, cartoon style...just like on The Road Runner ....beep beep!!

Originally posted by benoni
Thank you The Soothsayer for your links.....

My fave is this one.....very helpful!!

Does this look right to you...???

What is "looking right" supposed to look like? How would you know?

reply to post by The Soothsayer


OK...trying to keep this in perspective ( small pun, sorry )...

This site shows photos of airplane wreckage from within the Pentagon...
WRECKAGE

I took a gander at that link, above.

Few things:

I feel the "scale" is way off. But, that is only my impression, I do not have sufficient computer graphics skills to display WHY I feel so.

ONE big, glaring item that JUMPED out at me, though...was a caption, in that link, describing American Airlines 77 as "269,434 pounds".

Anyone else see this as a problem, as it relates to the crediblity of that 'source"?

No?

Well, considering that the MAX Gross Take Off weight of ANY B-757 is 255,000 pounds (and, that IS the MTOW of our (my company's) B-757-300s -- AA does NOT fly the dash 300 models, NOR did the -300 exist in 2001..)

The FOB (Fuel OnBoard) was estimated by NTSB, for AA 77:

Based on ACARS transmissions to the airplane, the fuel load on the airplane when on the ramp was 48983 lbs. This results in about 36,200 lb. of fuel remaining upon impact with the Pentagon (the end of the DFDR data).

www.ntsb.gov...

(Page #8)

Weights

Operating empty with P&W engines 57,840kg (127,520lb), with RB211s 57,975kg (127,810lb). Basic max takeoff 99,790kg (220,000lb), medium range MTOW 108,860kg (240,000lb), extended range MTOW 115,665kg (255,000lb) or 115,895kg (255,550lb).

www.airliners.net...

OEW (Operating Empty Weight) is always aircraft-specfic, per Ship number. It varies by only a few hundred pounds. This figure includes, for Airline purposes, as part of the term "Operating" --- ALL required crewmembers, (based on average weights per person) along with average catering supplies, magazines and amenities such as pillows, blankets, etc normally installed in the cabin.

ADD to the OEW the 'payload' ( you can calculate the number of passengers on AA 77, and allow for the average weight, as airlines do, for the checked baggage. 27.5 pounds per bag is the accepted 'average' )...

Average passenger weight is usually, depending on airline, 165 pounds summer, and 175 pounds winter. ('winter' assumes heavier clothing...).

Averages vary, and tend to adjust upwards, lately.

Known 'cargo' as payload...such as US mail, etc.

There were NOT 60 passengers on AA 77, but let's use that number, as an excess figure.

60 X 175 = 10,500

Assume EACH pax had a checked bag....27.5 X 60 = 1,650

Allow for 'cargo'? Say, 10,000 pounds (Well outside guess, probably well above reality)...

Add up:

OEW: 128,000
Pax: 10,500
Bags: 1,650
Cargo: 10,000
Fuel: 36,200

EQUALS: 186,350 pounds.

Note, please....I made allowances and OVER-estimated the 'unknowns'...(although they ARE 'known', IF we look hard enough.

THIS is why the Internets are so full of BS!

People just ACCEPT, without question (in many cases) what they read.

Takes a perspective on many, some who have actual experience in these matters, to clarify. And, to provide clarity, and remove the hyperbole.




[edit on 20 April 2010 by weedwhacker]

Excuse me.... on another 9/11 thread today you deny Amerika used 9/11 as a pre-cursor to illegal invasions of Iraq and AfPak,arguing it (coincidentally) just "landed in Amerikas lap", then judge others for their gullibility pertaining to the Internet...and how some will believe anything???


......are you serious???????



Please tell me which airline you supposedly fly for...I need to avoid it.

reply to post by GoodOlDave

Excellent comments. Over a hundred people saw the plane hit the Pentagon. I read the testimony of one man who was so close he could see the faces at the windows.

That French author you mention is probably the godfather of what is now a full on industry. People make their living cranking out this stuff, and a conspiracy theory no different than the Princess Diana was murdered insanity is actually thought to be real, - except that the theory that says that she was killed by British intelligence is a lot more credible than a missile hitting the Pentagon, which is one of the biggest fantasies of all time.

Any theory is in some serious trouble once it starts to rely on elements like, - all the witnesses were faked/paid off/intimidated. What about the real witnesses, ie those that saw the missile hit? How could the conspirators know who exactly would be in the vicinity of the Pentagon on 9/11? And having your secret operatives running around scattering body parts and bits of plane wreckage about the place might look a touch suspicious.

reply to post by weedwhacker




Methinks you included the wrong link in your post... the one labeled WRECKAGE shows pictures of the plane wreckage; it's the SCALE link that your talking about.

Irregardless, you provided some nice information!

Theres no wreckage...or so little that it begs the question...

Where did the plane go?
It cannot vapourise...!!

Have you ever heard of a car crash that resulted in NO car wreck visible??

Have you ever heard of a boeing 757 crashing and no sign of a plane??

Excluding the Shanksville "crash site" of course, yet another plane MIA......

Eyewitnesses prove nothing....physical evidence could, but there isnt any.

Why not??

And how can this be explained..no seats, wreckage(excluding that bucketful mentioned, which is hardly proof of anything!!), fuselage etc, etc.....

No evidence of a 757 = NO 757.

reply to post by The Soothsayer


Thanks, "Soothsayer"

However, the link to "WRECKAGE" in that post was actually linked to another ATS member's post, just to clarify.

Sorry if it was confusing.

reply to post by benoni


Well....how many times will it take?

Theres no wreckage...or so little that it begs the question...

No, not really, it doesn't "beg the question" at all.

And, the comment "There's no wreckage..." is not entirely accurate.

Not as pertains to American Airlines 77, and its impact at the Pentagon on 11 September, 2001.

PLENTY of wreckage, from that airplane, was recovered. Enough to positively identify that airplane, and tie it to the flight. AND, of course, the DNA matches, with the victims is contributing proof.

THING that keeps confusing people, it seems, is the DIFFERENCE between most airliner accidents, and the visual aftermaths, compared to this one.

FIRST (and this has been repeated many, many times, sorry) the SPEEDS involved make a huge difference. I've tried many different analogies, mostly seem to no avail.

Does thinking of a bullet help? In terms of analogies?

Imagine a bullet, and substitute a bullet for an airplane. Imagining, so far, OK?

THROW a bullet at a wall, with your hand. HOW FAST was that bullet traveling, when you threw it? No need for an exact figure, just keep that image in mind....

NOW...LOAD a bullet into a gun or rifle. FIRE the gun or rifle at he wall.

See any difference?

NOW...say you are Superman, and are strong enough to pick up an entire airplane...say it's a Boeiing 757.

Now, as Superman, just throw that B-757 at a wall. OK, maybe Superman will make it go really, really fast (fast as a speeding bullet?) but...let's assume it isn't that fast, but only as fast as a normal Human arm can throw.

Still with me?

At normal speeds, the Superman throw of the Boeing 757 will result in...well, it will look much like a toy, thrown by a child.

BUT (and this is important)...IF that Boeing 757 is moving at a very high rate of speed, it has something called 'Kinetic Energy'. Check in with Doctor Newton, (Isaac, if you're on friendly terms) if you wish to learn more about this topic.

(Maybe Suprman can throw the jetliner at that speed, upwards of 480 knots, from a standing start...but he might throw out his shoulder in the process. But, hey! He's Superman! He can do anything!)

However, since 'Superman' is fiction, we are stuck with reality, and physics. A brush-up in physics might help, in order to understand this.

Velocity(squared) - times - weight - equals - force.

FORCE increases as the SQUARE of velocity. It is NOT linear, it is progressive, it is exponential.

This is why a study of physics will come in handy, in order to increase comprehension skills.



[edit on 20 April 2010 by weedwhacker]

Ok, Ok...F = MA

I presume this is what you are saying, and nobody is disputing this fact..

but that Law applies to all plane crash sites, yet ALL terrestrial plane crash sites leave a debris field ...except on 9/11

Dont tell me its yet another coincidence that on 9/11 the plane defied the above "standard" when it comes to plane crashes....excluding Shanksville, which also had hardly a crumb of wreckage...oh, thats right,thats because that plane, for the first time in Aviation History, managed to "bury" itself in some (coincidentally) soft soil....yeah right!!

www.youtube.com...

Hers a plane crash...the plane "fell from the sky" at great speed, yet wreckage is clearly visible....

The shankville and Pentagon "crashes" bear not even the slightest resemblance to this...why??

reply to post by benoni


Its funny you post that video cause in the crater I see debris and junk that looks a lot like the one in Shanksville. So i see a resemblence there. The blackened and burned debris. Also some parts of the fuselage laying around, like at Shanksville. Yeah yeah I can see a resemblence there, good thing you pointed it out. Now we can confirm the Shanksville crash site as a PLANE crash site. Good job!

As for the Pentagon, can I ask you, did the plane flop down on top of the Pentagon building, or did it ram straight into the wall of it at full speed? Be sure to ask yourself this before comparing the crash in Iran to the Pentagon.

The iranian plane never "flopped" down...where did you get that nonsense from??

It fell vertically from the sky....yet large chunks of fuselage are clearly scattered all over.....

A plane flying vertically into the ground and a plane flying horizontally into the Pentacon are fairly balanced comparisons...
But , seeing as you brought it up, the vertical crash from the skies by the Iranian plane is eerily similar to Shanksville....but thats the only similarity(thanks for the heads up!!)....
as seen from these pix..

Shanksville....



[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/8caeb39775c0.jpg[/atsimg]

and the iranian Crash Site...

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/59d7ed0a30ee.jpg[/atsimg]

and...

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/eb7657a8d667.jpg[/atsimg]


Do these look the same Gen...??

Remember, they both came down vertically....

Why then is there an absence of wreckage at Shanksville??

Thanks again Gen....

Have you swopped teams ....???

Originally posted by Alfie1
You know, there were buckets of Boeing 757 debris found at the Pentagon. Pieces of great weight and pieces embedded in the concrete of the Pentagon by great force.

Then you should have no problem showing us the official FBI reports that match these buckets of parts to AA77.

There were also body parts of the passengers and crew of AA 77 recovered from the Pentagon.

And if the fire was hot enough to destroy the plane it would have also destryed DNA evidence.

Approx. 100 witnesses saw a plane impact the Pentagon. Many of those identified it as an American Airlines airliner.

Witness statments are the least reliable of any evidence. thats why there still needs to be a proper criminal investigation.

Originally posted by weedwhacker
PLENTY of wreckage, from that airplane, was recovered. Enough to positively identify that airplane, and tie it to the flight. AND, of course, the DNA matches, with the victims is contributing proof.

Please show us the proper, offical FBI reports that the wreckage matched the plane and the flight.

BUT (and this is important)...IF that Boeing 757 is moving at a very high rate of speed, it has something called 'Kinetic Energy'.

You keep forgetting that the force of impact would have destroyed the composite nose and thin aluminum airframe around it. The nose could have never made it all the into the building and punch through the outer ting.