Revelation; 4 Horsemen-Why?

reply to post by DISRAELI


In my opinion, Tetragramaton has to be the origin of it all, but at a much higher level.

As for the horsemen of the Revelation, they are likely to be the application of divine correction at a much mundane level. The same horses appeared earlier in Zecharia. Whilst there were troubles up north in Zecharia's time and two of the horses actually head north, this should not detract from the fact that each horse stand for something completly different.

The four elements are in everything. If you need to resolve some problem you need to address all four aspects. A possible explanation of the horses could be as follows :-

1. The principle of leadership and the benevolent king (first horse - Jupiter)
2. The need to eradicate conflict through the sword (second horse - Mars)
3. The need to restore a value system (Third horse - Venus)
4. A death and rebirth (Fourth horse - Pluto/Mercury)

I have use astrological symbols here. I could have used other symbols.

Thank you again, crowdedskies, for your contribution.
Your comments are very stimulating and thought-provoking.

We agree that this story is about "putting things right", and I think we're just focussing on different aspects of the story. My OP was about "why?", my next thread will be about what the events would actually look like, and perhaps you're taking the question of "how?" to a deeper level. You are giving me food for thought here.

Coming back to "four", I haven't entirely understood this comment;

Originally posted by crowdedskies

In my opinion, Tetragramaton has to be the origin of it all, but at a much higher level.

By "higher level", are you talking about a four-fold nature within God?

Originally posted by DISRAELI

Coming back to "four", I haven't entirely understood this comment;

Originally posted by crowdedskies

In my opinion, Tetragramaton has to be the origin of it all, but at a much higher level.

By "higher level", are you talking about a four-fold nature within God?

Fourfold nature of God is only in the manifest world. God unmanifest would only have one nature which encompasses everything.

It is very interesting that the first horse to come out has a rider who is crowned and has a bow. In Kaballah, I believe that this is the State of Existence known as Chesed. The planet Jupiter could be attributed to it, and therefore the sign of the Archer (Sagitarius). The is the first state of existence after the fall from the Archetypal world.

The first horseman has the qualities of the other horsemen within him and therefore the other horses derive their qualities from the first horse. However each of the three take on a different attribute.

This is my own opinion and I may or may not be correct.

Originally posted by crowdedskies

Fourfold nature of God is only in the manifest world. God unmanifest would only have one nature which encompasses everything.

Yes, I was a little puzzled by what you appeared to mean, so thank you for clarifying that you didn't mean it quite like that.

If we're getting into Kabbalah, we're getting way beyond my area of knowledge, so I won't pursue that side of the discussion.

I will not bring Kabbalah into it as it will hinder rather than help.

You made a very interesting suggestion; asking us to look at events and see whether there has been a case where the horsemen visited us.

To set the ball rolling, I could give an example. Following the invasion of Poland in 1939 by Germany, the world faced the prospect of living under Nazi rule.

Britain declared war against Germany (the first horse). The world is at war with large amount of soldiers being killed (Horse 2). War ends with new regimes and systems set up to rebuild economies (Horse 3). The world changes and peace prevails (Horse 4 - phoenix effect).

If you ignore the various terrorists organisations around the world, it has been a very long period of world peace since 1945.

No doubt a new visit is required soon.

Originally posted by crowdedskies

You made a very interesting suggestion; asking us to look at events and see whether there has been a case where the horsemen visited us.

To set the ball rolling, I could give an example. Following the invasion of Poland in 1939 by Germany, the world faced the prospect of living under Nazi rule.

This is certainly the best answer that anyone has produced so far.

I must admit that my own suggestion was being slightly provocative. I've seen various theories trying to match up the 4 Horsemen with events in recent history, and I was sure that these theories were leaving the "God responding to the needs of his people" angle out of consideration. Rather than say so outright, I was trying to prompt people to examine their theories and see that for themselves.

Your suggestion, arguably, meets the challenge very well. There are people "under threat" from Nazi power, and what happens in the process deals with the threat. So there has been a response to a need.

My own line of approach is;
"God's people" means the church.
John is describing in ch6 something bigger, more dramatic, and more condensed, than many theories allow for (I'm going to cover this in my next thread).
It follows that the world has not yet experienced the events of Revelation ch6.
Probably because the church is not, in fact, being oppressed and harassed to an extent which would match the kind of situation being described in Zechariah and Revelation. What might happen in the future is another story.

I am looking forward to your next thread. If you do concentrate on the Revelation of John rather than Zecharia or Daniel , then I suppose you must be right and it has to do with the church.

This is, hopefully, a link to the second half of this theme;


abovetopsecret

[edit on 24-4-2010 by DISRAELI]

[edit on 24-4-2010 by DISRAELI]

I have seriously analyzed revelations trying to wrap my head around or decipher what it could mean for about 2 years now. From "Numerology" and if all the numbers in the phophecy beared some significance like numerical code. And I read a lot of different theroies here suggesting the 4 horsemen were governments or world leaders or metaphors.
I was thinking that War, Famine, Plauge and Death could have all been forces that the teachings of Jesus would put an end to. Come back in spirit or essence and show a world of conflict and catastrophe what it means to be a leader.
It was written around 70 A.D. and I dont think it was successful at seeing into the future and maybe a manifesto or angst of a man hiding in exile for fear of death later killed for his beliefs. Saying "youre wrong " he will come back with righteousness and will show the world whats going on . Between good and evil , right and wrong whats proper and whats not. He talked of a final battle between good and evil called Armaggetton where the whole world was involved in a "World War".
The thoughts of a dying man maybe, maybe had vengeful words or contempt for the Roman Empire. I was also thinking what the world was like back then no cars, electricity, phones , cops , people were completely isolated. Angels have no private parts and to become a priest some gotta be selabant. What it means to be good and pure and pure good untainted by the pleasures of flesh or the mind altering affects. Sometimes I wonder what the world was like back then. I have a trade paperback of a graphic novel Kingdom Come by DC comics. In the opening sees people fightin killing and orgies in shadow and said there was chaos then out of all of it an angel and a man standing there in light or kneeling in not so dark shades of color.
In my other threads I consider whether the american government planned an attempted murder in a house like the jetsons or "The Truman Show" to undercoverly go along with revelations. If the freemasons or the masons who knew how to build, arrange and achitecture needed some kid in a house with a head injury so they could build things that went out to the 4 corners of the world. For a very old contract ( the masons were a group a few hundred years old) that maybe wasnt such a good idea, just 2000 years of culture and 1/3 of the worlds population today Christian or Catholic and the phophecy was in the Bible.

I was watching the movie "Up in the Air" I think by George Clooney and in it he travels almost everyday of the year has no people connections. The underlying message portrayed in the movie is relationships and family are important. He gets a card to an exclusive club that flew over 10,000,000 miles and thats his life. In the credits there is this song "I was thinking of you so I wrote this song , the world needs a savior ..." I think thats how it was worded. Sorry if my quickly written words sound blasphamous.

[edit on 4/24/2010 by P. O. W.]

THe four horsemen. Ok Here's my view point. I do believe your right in assuming these are the same group of horsmen in the OT.

Rev.6: 2And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.

Notice The rider has no arrows for his bow. this probably means he conquers through peace or leverage. He does have a crown that was "given" not bought or fought for very much like Daniels willful king. I believe that simply because of the crown and the color that this is probably the anti-christ in a counterfit role. I also think I found his arrows but thats another thread

Rev.6:4And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.

Now this red horse has a weapon and he once again is "given" power but it is the power to take peace away but it doesn't say he kills, it says they kill.
So once again this has to someone in a position that is able to influence world leaders into commiting to war. Again I think the red horse rider is the anti-christ.

Rev6:5And when he had opened the third seal, I heard the third beast say, Come and see. And I beheld, and lo a black horse; and he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand.

6And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine.

Wow a pair of balances for a weapon? Again same person but this time he is redistrubeting the wealth with equal or unequal balance's. The prices for the bread show economic hardship. I mean wow a days wage for a loaf of bread.

Rev.6: 8And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

The pale or dabbled horse sums the first 3 riders up. and brings their ultimate reason for coming. The power is once again "given" rule over a fourth of the world by peace or leverage and to kill with the sword of the red horseman. He also uses starvation of the black horseman. I believe the death part is not from war but executions for not bowing to his will. The Hell that follows with him is a reference to the locust from the bottomless pit.

What I believe you have here is 4 views of the same person. Just as the apostles gave four views of Jesus in the gospels.

I am sorry if my post seemed off topic I havent done nearly as much research as you, just thinking of a lot of messed up things for 2 years. Tried to add something , just might have been involved in a joke near death experience with a scar on my arm and maybe some people take a phophecy a little too literally. I dont know I am sorry for saying this I know you seem like you have a strong grasp of what your talking about and I dont mean to insult your faith, but I dont know it was a long time ago.

Originally posted by Loken68

What I believe you have here is 4 views of the same person. Just as the apostles gave four views of Jesus in the gospels.

Thank you for that very important contribution.

You might be interested in following up the link which I planted three or four posts ago. This would take you to the new thread where I give my own view of the differences between the four horses. You will see that my take differs from yours on some of the details.

On the other hand, we seem to be thinking along the same lines in one respect. My main conclusion in that thread is that "these are not four distinct disaters, but the different components of one major, devsatating disaster." I think there's a lot of kinship between that conclusion and the conclusion in your own post, as quoted above.

Originally posted by P. O. W.
I have seriously analyzed revelations trying to wrap my head around or decipher what it could mean for about 2 years now. From "Numerology" and if all the numbers in the phophecy beared some significance like numerical code. And I read a lot of different theroies here suggesting the 4 horsemen were governments or world leaders or metaphors.

Don't worry, my faith doesn't feel insulted. You were rambling a little (lack of sleep?), but not insulting.

A couple of observations. One, on this whole business of "deciphering" Revelation. i think we sometimes make this more difficult than it needs to be. One reason is that modern people don't pay enough attention to the Old Testament, which is the real key to it all. Another is that there is a tendancy to make things over-elaborate. I think the whole "numerology" issue is part of the unnecessary elaboration that we impose upon it.

As for this comment...

I was thinking that War, Famine, Plauge and Death could have all been forces that the teachings of Jesus would put an end to. Come back in spirit or essence and show a world of conflict and catastrophe what it means to be a leader.

I thought that was definitely worth saying, and asking us to think about. There could be a lot of agreement on that point.

here is a good thread about deciphering revelations from back in 2004.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

"I was under the impression there would be no math"

Chevy Chase

reply to post by acrux


That's true. Have you seen the TV show 'Supernatural'? It shows the four horsemen driving cars instead of horses.

reply to post by Bordon81


Thank you very much for pointing me towards that link.

I've just been inspecting it.
I see it's mainly about ch13, so it may be very useful when I get to that point in the series.

reply to post by DISRAELI


The 4 horsemen could mean the 4 power quartet and it's major players are Russia, China, European Union and the USA.

reply to post by bluemirage5


Thank you for that contribution.

Have you had a look at my more recent "4 Horsemen-Running" thread, where I outline my own take on the exact nature of the equestrian gentlemen? I hope you might find it interesting.

I don't know if you've ever read my take on chapter 6 but to sum it up, my opinion is that the four horsemen are the four spirits of heaven, thus they are of God himself.

The Pale Horse, the aspect of God who after the body is destroyed, has authority to let the spirit remain in hell.

Here are two threads that are good examples of a Pale Horse situation. Here are links to them.

tamil refugees

arizona mexico situation

There are people in these situations who had this choice to make. Going into captivity, killing with the sword or welcome Death.

Here is the faith and patience of the saints. Those who keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus:

John 11:25
Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live.

Refugees all over the world have been or are in this situation. Go into captivity in a BEAST state or die the Pale horse death.

The Pale Horse has the power to kill the Fourth part of earth and it is a righteous death.

Numbers 23:10
Who can count the dust of Jacob, and the number of the fourth part of Israel? Let me die the death of the righteous, and let my last end be like his!

The Third part of the earth needs to be refined.

reply to post by iamnot

I now attach a link to connect this thread with my later discussion on ch1, which sets the tone for the book as a whole.
Fear Not