when does a fetus become a baby ?

I have been unable to answer this question.
as I was going to be aborted back in 1959.
so in a way - i should not be here. my earliest memories
takes me back all the way to 1963 - JFK got whacked.
so, I was aware around 2.5 years old.


the moment of intercoarse...?
the moment of birth...?
the moment of self awareness...?

reply to post by Anti-Evil


When the Mother's heart tells her it's a baby - or until it's viable outside of the womb.

Some women believe it's nothing but a blob of skin - others believe it's more. So, it's the woman who knows the answer.

peace

reply to post by Anti-Evil


The moment the Zygote is synthesized from the Gametes. The Zygote is the first stage of a new and unique life....

Edit to Add:

Maybe a better question would be: Should abortion be used as a form of Birth Control?

The argument has been made that; "A woman has the right to control her own body" but I think it's not a valid argument at all. Everyone knows what can happen when a man and a woman copulate. Both parties are "in control" of what happens (unless it's a rape of course) We all have to deal w/the concequences of our actions. The concequenses of sex should be no different.... IMHO...






[edit on 13-4-2010 by Anamnesis]

reply to post by Anti-Evil


Read what Merriam’s dictionary says about life.

www.merriam-webster.com...

or this one.

dictionary.reference.com...

And I have even heard scientist say when a cell starts to spit it is the beginning of life. Or something to that effect.


Hey but don’t tell people who support murder..err I mean abortion, but cause it’s there right to snuff out a life before it can draw its first breathe, but yet I can’t kill the jerk who cuts me off in traffic.... Figure that crap out.

You pro-life people are ridiculous

Legal abortion (any stage): Less "mistakes" are brought into the world. What happens to a child who's parents don't even want it? I can't even imagine. My mother loved me as much as possible and I still wound up screwed up from my dad leaving.

Illegal abortion: Hundreds of screwed up kids being born every day. They might be making their community and family's lives less stable, but hey at least we can teach them about Jesus!!!

My thinking

Life = experience. With no senses for experience, there is no life. The central nervous system is the first experiences of perception, and arguably when the central nervous system is "turned on" is when life happens

This is about the 2.5-3 month mark

Before that point, I would venture to say its little more than replicating cells.

I have no issue with people getting an abortion before the 2.5m mark...like scraping a growth off...after that is when one gets philosophical issues...because then the brain starts getting information and creation of a unique identity begins.

The question was, "When does a fetus become a baby?".

The body in question is a fetus until it is living outside of the mother's body.

If it is still-borne, it is a fetus.

If it is cut into pieces inside the mother's womb and removed a chunk at a time, the total of the parts are still a fetus.

If anyone is asking if it is a life while still a fetus, yes it is.
It has different DNA sequence than it's mother and father, it is capable of growth, movement and responds to stimuli.

Originally posted by SaturnFX
My thinking

Life = experience. With no senses for experience, there is no life. The central nervous system is the first experiences of perception, and arguably when the central nervous system is "turned on" is when life happens

This is about the 2.5-3 month mark

Before that point, I would venture to say its little more than replicating cells.

I have no issue with people getting an abortion before the 2.5m mark...like scraping a growth off...after that is when one gets philosophical issues...because then the brain starts getting information and creation of a unique identity begins.

I am not looking for any argument here at all.

I would like to say that after dealing with a significant other that had a miscarriage before that 2 1/2- 3 month mark, I'd swear she lost a baby.

The fact of the matter is that there is no general consensus, and no one really knows. It's all based on personal opinions (most of which are founded in religious beliefs); so the only person that can answer that question is you.

You can look to the dictionary...

Source

fe·tus

(used chiefly of viviparous mammals) the young of an animal in the womb or egg, esp. in the later stages of development when the body structures are in the recognizable form of its kind, in humans after the end of the second month of gestation.

Source

ba·by

1. an infant or very young child.
2. a newborn or very young animal.
3. the youngest member of a family, group, etc.
4. an immature or childish person.
5. a human fetus.

however, as you can see from the 5th definition of 'baby', even that blurs the lines.

[edit on 4/13/10 by redmage]

A "baby" is the description of a human at that particular period of physical development. It's like a toddler, child, adolescent, or adult. All are descrptions of a developmental level.

Unfortunately for the pro-deathers, a fetus is also simply a description of a human at a particular time of development. It has it's own specific DNA that is NOT the mother's.

Someone said "...or until it's viable outside of the womb" Wow, so the premature infants that need breathing/feeding assistance aren't human yet? How about someone in a coma? Do they give up their right to be human as well?

Originally posted by kingofmd
Unfortunately for the pro-deathers, a fetus is also simply a description of a human at a particular time of development.

Can't say I've ever seen a "pro-deather" sign, nor a protest; however, people who are pro-choice also believe that continuing the pregnancy ("life") is a valid choice.

Originally posted by kingofmd
Someone said "...or until it's viable outside of the womb" Wow, so the premature infants that need breathing/feeding assistance aren't human yet? How about someone in a coma? Do they give up their right to be human as well?

Your straw man fallacy is unnecessary. No one here is debating "human"; the topic involves when a supposed 'transition' from fetus to baby occurs.

[edit on 4/13/10 by redmage]

Why are my sperm not as improtant as an egg? Why do the religious nuts protect eggs and not sperm? It is sexist. I believe the third trimester is the start of babyness.

I'll probably shock my "liberal" friends on here.

But IMO...life starts at conception where unique DNA is created. This is no longer "part of the mothers body". It is a unique human life...with no less rights than a 40 year old human.

The original question "When does a fetus become a baby" is a bit of a mis-leading question because TECHNICALLY...it is always a fetus while it is still in the womb...even the minute before birth. But that doesn't mean it isn't a human life. Just a technical term.

Here are the stages of life (roughly): Zygote, Embryo, Fetus, Baby, Child, Adolescence, Adult.

There is no magical division line that says one stage is less human than the others.


I'm not very liberal on abortion...I view elective abortion at any stage of life murder. The only exception I make is if the mother's life is in danger...which is more of a medical decision than a birth control decision.

reply to post by redmage


Relgion doesnt play a part in this for me, Although I will say that I am seeing things that may point to a God, but I am not on board yet...

But murder is murder, I shoot you are 26 what is it? I stab you when your 10 what is it? I choke when your 3 what is it? I shake you to death at 2 months what is it? I suck you out of the womb with a vacuum what is it?

Originally posted by earthdude
Why are my sperm not as improtant as an egg? Why do the religious nuts protect eggs and not sperm? It is sexist. I believe the third trimester is the start of babyness.

Your goofy, no one is protecting the egg, when the sperm and the egg meet, and the sperm gets in the egg and deposits its DNA into the egg it becomes life. it is no longer an egg sperm issue but a unity of the two.

Who taught you about sex?

reply to post by OutKast Searcher


I am going to have to agree with you on that, if the mother or child may die, rape or incest are involved then I believe the women has a choice to end the pregnancy, but just because you’re a party girl/guy or whatever the excuses you may come up with doesn’t give you the right to abort the child.

Originally posted by poedxsoldiervet
I shoot you are 26 what is it?

Depends on what the courts decide, but it'd likely be murder, or manslaughter.

Originally posted by poedxsoldiervet
I stab you when your 10 what is it?

Again, it depends on what the courts decide, but it'd likely be murder, or manslaughter.

Originally posted by poedxsoldiervet
I choke when your 3 what is it?

Again, it depends on what the courts decide, but it'd likely be murder, or manslaughter.

Originally posted by poedxsoldiervet
I shake you to death at 2 months what is it?

Again, it depends on what the courts decide, but it'd likely be murder, or manslaughter.

Originally posted by poedxsoldiervet
I suck you out of the womb with a vacuum what is it?

As sad as it is; it's the removal of an internal parasite that's incapable of surviving on its own.



[edit on 4/13/10 by redmage]

As far as im concerned (i asked my brother about this, he is a doctor), this happens at the 42nd day, thats when the pineal gland is formed and when "consciousness" kicks in.

Everything before that is kind of a protoplasmic mass, still baby shaped but not "conscious"

"An error does not become a mistake until we refuse to correct it. We intend to take full responsibility for our errors."
America's last true president who gave a damn-JFK.

Rape , fornication , selfishness , are sins that the unborn is innocent of , why punish them. I forget we live on a planet of suffering , where the strong exploit the weak , where the innocent has to pay for the guilty.

Abortion should only be used in cases where the mother's life will be at risk if the child is carried to term or rape which is a bit harsh but rape is a very sensitive and traumatic issue , and then only if it's her , the mother's choice. Using abortion as a form of birth control is equivalent to saying that child was waste and allowing this will only allow this mentality to continue , that the unborn is waste , thus people have no respect for life. Abortion should also be carried out as soon as possible within 3-4 weeks after fertilization (get the vile deed over with quickly , before the poor thing develops neurons to feel pain in my opinion).

I abhor abortion where an innocent , defenseless , speechless child's potential is murdered , when with more mature heads deciding , that child could live a meaningful life , from conception , to adulthood , to the grave.

My answer to the OP , at conception , that's when the two (egg and sperm) become one new life and the "action" starts happening.

[edit on 13-4-2010 by De La Valletta]

[edit on 13-4-2010 by De La Valletta]

reply to post by redmage

it's the removal of an internal parasite that's incapable of surviving on its own.

This is one of the more idiotic arguments I hear about abortion.

A newborn infant can not survive on it's own...in a natural environment it still needs to be a "parasite" by feeding on the mother's milk.

So by your logic...mothers should still be able to kill them if they are too much trouble...right?

You have to intentionally suspend logic for this argument to make sense.

The lengths some people will go to in order to escape personal responsibility is astounding to me. Not to mention in the case of abortion it is also 100% hipocritcal and sexist because only the women are granted a "choice" to either take responsibility for their actions...or cop out and kill a human to escape it.