The Zeitgeist Movement is *Pure Communism*

I dont really see why you are against zeitgeist so much. Do you really love capitalism so much? At least peter joseph is trying to break away from the corrupt system that we see in play in America today. Do you have a better idea for what kind of system we should be heading towards? Because Capitalism just destroys our earth and creates many problems for society. Im not saying that any form of government is going to completely eliminate all of the problems that exist in society, but I think when we are thinking in terms of making things better for the good of the majority of the population, we need to create more equality, and not have it divided into social classes where the high class (1%) has more say than the rest of the people just because they own more money, which they just steal from the rest of the citizens

The anit-religous sentiments in the Zeitgeist movies bothered me.

Im not a religous person, that is I dont follow a prescribed doctrine, but I think its a fundemental human right to believe in whatever you like so long as it doesn't hurt anyone. Ok, people might say "well look the wrongs that have been done in the name of religion" and I agree with that. But that does not mean that we should do away with religion, it simply means that there are people out there who don't use their minds and follow a dogmatic view of reality.
Also if you look at it, the makers of the (Zeitgeist)movies mention only the Abrahamic religions, Judaism, Islam and Christianity. These religions all have the same origin, and although they are considered 'world religions' they are only three branches of the same family, and not representative of all the diverse spiritual beliefs human beings foster. By abolishing religion, as the movie proposes, we would be indeed 'cutting off the head to cure a cold'.

I know this is slightly off topic, but communism also tried to abolish religous expression and where did that get anybody.

What we need to abolish is people not using their minds....good luck with that

reply to post by JosephMatthew

If you consider Zeitgeist & TVP free from your own propaganda programming, you might start to see the strength in the solutions proffered.

I hope this helps; not trying to change your mind or argue (not interested) only to show that your viewpoint reflects false information. I hope you see your way through it and can consider the ideas free from fear-based propaganda.

It is interesting that you mention fear and propaganda. As I recall, the ZM main tool for recruitment and the dissemination of its message, which it tags TVP as its solution too, is a movie based on fear. It has three parts all claiming that we are being duped and controlled. It makes conclusions about events from speculation and conjecture. The first part is totally based in lies born from the new age cult of theosophy, which is such a contradiction given the claims it makes about religion. The other parts are mashed from truther and NWO conspiracy.


It is a master piece of paranoia and fear, with which it presents a solution that is based on imagination and sci-fi fantasy all while assuming that it is really only a matter of "if we just tried". It assumes that all the technology it needs will simply be achieved via an application of attention to the needs envisioned by TVP.
The fact that we have been focused on automating as much as possible, for over a century now, seems to be ignored by TVP as a real gauge of our ability to address TVP vision. Instead, it offers a utopian ideal juxtaposed with the lies, fear and paranoia it sells in the Zmovie.
It attacks the three dominating pillars of contemporary society. Religion, Politics and Economics in order to present its own new world order.
Fear. Propaganda. Zeitgeist.



[edit on 14-4-2010 by Derised Emanresu]

Originally posted by bulletproof_monk
I dont really see why you are against zeitgeist so much.

For one thing, its pure communism yet it thrashes and screams and kicks that it isn't. If thats not a good enough reason, see here:
Zeitgeist Movement = most hardcore NWO propaganda ever.

Do you really love capitalism so much?

Well, yeah, but that doesnt mean I support this tyrannical fascist corporatist system that is so far off the tracks its getting harder and harder to distinguish it from communism.

It was communist enough that most jobs I've had I basically always got paid the same despite outworking most other coworkers. You gotta wait a year sometimes to get any raise, and almost no matter what the highest flat rate raise companies are willing to give is a 'dollar' which the others also get.

So the lazy people too often get paid the same amount of units of measurement of worth as the motivated people. Too often you wont get the solid boost you deserve unless you move on to a new company. Its too bad you typically have to take off work to go look for a new job, as the conformist system tends to have everyone working the same hours on the same days.

This is all to monolithic as far as I'm concerned. So for highly skilled, motivated and capable people like me communism is already proven to be a pitfall just by observing the monolithic qualitities of the system we now serve. This further makes it obvious how a deeper communist system will encourage the lazy.

Another simpler way to view it is without private property, and with trading banished, I wouldn't even want to have the exotic vegetable garden I have as already most of the 'proletariats' out there who are out of work are still too lazy to go outside and grow their own food, instead they go down and collect food stamps futher adding to the looming (inter)national collapse.

So with the idea of all of EVERYTHING being owned by the total system, and everyone having a 'basic human right' to food, I'll go spend my free time and effort building a super garden like I now have, only for the lazy people to help themselves to my exotic food stuffs. COUNT ME OUT!

Therefore, yes I love capitalism. People like me are destined to be self-employed, and others should have no right to my motivation so they can further their own laziness. I'm not a cog in the machine, I seek out my own destiny.

Do you have a better idea for what kind of system we should be heading towards?

See my response to this question on page one.

Because Capitalism just destroys our earth and creates many problems for society.

Actually, communism has been by far the greatest woe to the earths environment. Al Gore even shows examples of it in his propaganda film, while ironically inherently calling for communism.

Im not saying that any form of government is going to completely eliminate all of the problems that exist in society, but I think when we are thinking in terms of making things better for the good of the majority of the population, we need to create more equality, and not have it divided into social classes where the high class (1%) has more say than the rest of the people just because they own more money, which they just steal from the rest of the citizens

The best intentions can lead to the worst results when misguided. A flip side to communism and equility is we can all be equally poor. When put into preactice 'pure communism' always ends up as such.

An important perspective when proposing a new system is to factor in The Iron Law of Oligarchy, which posits that:

all forms of organization, regardless of how democratic or autocratic they may be at the start, will eventually and inevitably develop into oligarchies. The reasons for this are the technical indispensability of leadership, the tendency of the leaders to organize themselves and to consolidate their interests; the gratitude of the led towards the leaders, and the general immobility and passivity of the masses.

Therefore, the more consolidated the system is at its onset, the more hardcore of a corrupt oligarchy it will become and the more efficiently it will reach that point. The US Constitution was written specifically to prevent this inevitable outcome, and it took an awful long time to get this far in.

[edit on 14-4-2010 by IgnoranceIsntBlisss]

Here's some more Communist description, this time from 1847, titled "The Principles of Communism":

What will this new social order have to be like?
Above all, it will have to take the control of industry and of all branches of production out of the hands of mutually competing individuals, and instead institute a system in which all these branches of production are operated by society as a whole – that is, for the common account, according to a common plan, and with the participation of all members of society.

It will, in other words, abolish competition and replace it with association.

Moreover, since the management of industry by individuals necessarily implies private property, and since competition is in reality merely the manner and form in which the control of industry by private property owners expresses itself, it follows that private property cannot be separated from competition and the individual management of industry. Private property must, therefore, be abolished and in its place must come the common utilization of all instruments of production and the distribution of all products according to common agreement – in a word, what is called the communal ownership of goods.

In fact, the abolition of private property is, doubtless, the shortest and most significant way to characterize the revolution in the whole social order which has been made necessary by the development of industry – and for this reason it is rightly advanced by communists as their main demand.

So what about 'money' under this description of communism?

Finally, when all capital, all production, all exchange have been brought together in the hands of the nation, private property will disappear of its own accord, money will become superfluous, and production will so expand and man so change that society will be able to slough off whatever of its old economic habits may remain.

Note that "superfluous" means not needed.

Was abundance an original goal of pure communism, as far back as 1847?

Instead of generating misery, overproduction will reach beyond the elementary requirements of society to assure the satisfaction of the needs of all; it will create new needs and, at the same time, the means of satisfying them. It will become the condition of, and the stimulus to, new progress, which will no longer throw the whole social order into confusion, as progress has always done in the past. Big industry, freed from the pressure of private property, will undergo such an expansion that what we now see will seem as petty in comparison as manufacture seems when put beside the big industry of our own day. This development of industry will make available to society a sufficient mass of products to satisfy the needs of everyone.

That sounds familiar. Moving on,

The same will be true of agriculture, which also suffers from the pressure of private property and is held back by the division of privately owned land into small parcels. Here, existing improvements and scientific procedures will be put into practice, with a resulting leap forward which will assure to society all the products it needs.

In this way, such an abundance of goods will be able to satisfy the needs of all its members.

Did that say scientific?

Do you want to work a crappy job? Well they had the answer to that back in 1847:

The form of the division of labor which makes one a peasant, another a cobbler, a third a factory worker, a fourth a stock-market operator, has already been underminded by machinery and will completely disappear. Education will enable young people quickly to familiarize themselves with the whole system of production and to pass from one branch of production to another in response to the needs of society or their own inclinations.

Machines are going to take our jobs anyways, was apparently the concern back in 1847. I guess what Jacque Fresco and Peter Joseph are mad about is that machines havent already taken all of our jobs away.

What will be the attitude of communism to existing nationalities?
The nationalities of the peoples associating themselves in accordance with the principle of community will be compelled to mingle with each other as a result of this association and thereby to dissolve themselves, just as the various estate and class distinctions must disappear through the abolition of their basis, private property.

Hmm... a global government?

Will it be possible for this revolution to take place in one country alone?
No. By creating the world market, big industry has already brought all the peoples of the Earth, and especially the civilized peoples, into such close relation with one another that none is independent of what happens to the others.

Further, it has co-ordinated the social development of the civilized countries to such an extent that, in all of them, bourgeoisie and proletariat have become the decisive classes, and the struggle between them the great struggle of the day. It follows that the communist revolution will not merely be a national phenomenon but must take place simultaneously in all civilized countries

Is communism against religion, as is TZM?

All religions so far have been the expression of historical stages of development of individual peoples or groups of peoples. But communism is the stage of historical development which makes all existing religions superfluous and brings about their disappearance.

Well, even though its all the same, at least its a good thing ZP claims it sin't communist!


[edit on 14-4-2010 by IgnoranceIsntBlisss]

So you think America is heading in the right direction right now? If i remember correctly America is being run by corporations who don't care about you or me. they care about make more money than they already have. They dont care if anyone dies, as long as its making them profit.
I see your side of the argument. People should get rewarded for working hard, but thats not how it really works in america right now. I'm almost certain there are many people who are born into poverty and they work their asses off only to stay poor in the end.
What im saying is that the top 1% has more money than they know what to do with it. They have enough money to give each household plenty of money and still have enough cash to live nicely. They are just too greedy and dont care about others.
I know some people are lazy, but are you saying that they deserve to die? Maybe if their system didnt treat them like crap theyd have a better outlook on life and work harder. Because like you said, the way things are now you dont have to work hard, and you'll get paid just as much as you would if you were working your ass off. Ya, some people are lazy and dont have much work ethic, and theyll take the easy way out. If we had a system where we paid by how much work you actually got done instead of how much time you waste on the job im almost certain people would start working harder and more efficiently. dont you?

This thread is stupid... I'm not even going to bother about an in depth debate with those against TVP... You're obviously just scavenging for replies and trying to demonise something you've been programmed to initiate a fear response from. You're against Communism because you are afraid of the people around you, you'd prefer to stay locked in your bubble, and an alternative mode of motivation scares you because you are shallow-scared little human being - Just like TPTB wan't you to be.

You don't want to have to contribute to something meaningful, you'd rather sit at home in your mums basement and buy comic books rather than work in your neighbourhood to create a permaculture garden because it might mean breaking out of the egg you live in.

What is The Venus Projects short term goals?

To build a theme park for people to have a taste of the Utopia we should be working toward - instead of being corporate livestock.



Its pretty pathetic when people who are allegedly spreading 'Ignorance Isn't Bliss' are happy to spread disinformation - or at least engage in dis-empowering dilutory rhetoric in an attempt to dissuade people from seeing possible solutions and/or attempting to enlarge their e-penis...

I don't know whats more pathetic.





[edit on 14/4/10 by ghostsoldier]

Originally posted by bulletproof_monk
reply to post by Ridhya

 

Im just saying that no way of governing people is going to be perfect. There is always going to be people out there that are greedy and corrupt and want to be better than others. What im saying is that capitalism promotes this kind of behaviour and makes people greedy and corrupt because they become way too materialistic and have a need for more and more money. There is never going to be enough. At least with communism, it doesnt promote being materialistic,

I have to comment on this. Capitalism is not bad in itself,but human nature can be,and that is something no government can "regulate". You know the saying,"Power corrupts,and absolute power corrupts absolutely"?
Any form of society will have Leaders and Followers,since we don't all share the same strengths or abilities,and that is fine.(Myself,I am not much of either,and that suits me!)

I'll bet you never read,"Animal Farm". The message is that while all are "equal",some are "more equal" than others!

Maybe you like seeing where this country is headed then? Read,in their own words,what the Communist party is saying:

U.S. Communist Party Sees Democrat Victory as Its Own

“The right-wing stranglehold on Congress has been broken,” declared Joelle Fishman, chair of the Communist Party USA’s (CPUSA) political action commission. “Electing the Democrats to control congress is a victory for communism.”

Fishman delivered her report to the committee as it discussed the results of the election. “With Democrats in charge the future of the Communist Party looks bright,” said CPUSA’s Executive Vice-chair Jarvis Tyner.

Fishman argued that the results of the election were a mandate to enact the near-term CPUSA agenda, which includes socialized medicine, tax increases, intensified regulations, and nationalization of selected businesses. Fishman thanked the women’s equality movement and the African American and Latino communities, the lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender community, environmentalists, and other public advocacy groups for helping bring America a step closer to the communist ideal. “The CPUSA emerges from this election in a key position to lead,” Fishman said. “The Democratic leadership in the House is in agreement with key elements of our near-term agenda. The long struggle to bring communism to America is nearer success than it’s ever been.”

Erica Smiley, National Coordinator of the Young Communist League, was bouyant, “The results of the 2006 election indicate a major turning point in our struggle to communize America.”

www.azconservative.org...

Here's a little 10-minute cartoon,that "seemed far-fetched in 1948"...

nationaljuggernaut.blogspot.com...

There's a saying that goes,"A young man who is not a communist has no heart. An old man who is a communist has no brain."

It's easy to idealize things when you are young,but reality teaches us otherwise. And the way History Repeats Itself,it is wise to learn from the past. (Even if it's too late to stop it now!)

reply to post by ghostsoldier


Wow talk about an ad hominem attack!

How about you actually directly respond to my charges, and the comparisons with actual communist writings???

Or just be honest and admit that it / you are *Pure Communist*?

There wouldn't even be a point in making making this thread if TZM didn't keep declaring itself not to be communist. It's like the Freemasons trying to claim they're not a religion, but arguably more clearly worse!

And since you're claiming I'm spreading disinformation, you should have no problem quoting me to demonstrate such. That's what I have done because I have a case.


PS: About that neighborhood permaculture garden you talked abotu building, could you show us some pictures of the one you rallied everyone to build?

[edit on 14-4-2010 by IgnoranceIsntBlisss]

reply to post by On the Edge

Which "Communist" party are you referring to, the one that expresses your point.

* American Socialist Union
* August 29th Movement
* Black Workers Congress
* Communist Labor Party
* Communist Labor Party of North America
* Communist League of America
* Communist League of Struggle
* Communist Party (Marxist–Leninist) (USA)
* Communist Party USA
* Communist Union
* Communist Voice Organization
* Communist Workers' Group (US)
* Communist Workers' Party (United States)
* Council communists (US organization)
* Democratic Workers Party
* Facing Reality
* Fieldites
* Fourth Internationalist Tendency
* Freedom Road Socialist Organization
* Freedom Socialist Party
* Freedom Socialist Party (Oregon)
* I Wor Kuen
* Independent Labor League of America
* International Committee Against Racism
* International Socialist Organization
* International Socialists (U.S.)
* International Workers Party
* Internationalism (US)
* Johnson-Forest Tendency
* Kasama Project
* League for the Revolutionary Party
* League of Revolutionaries for a New America
* League of Revolutionary Black Workers
* League of Revolutionary Struggle
* Leninist League (US)
* Maoist Internationalist Movement
* Marxist Workers' League (US)
* Marxist Workers Party
* Marxist–Leninist Party, USA
* New Communist Movement
* News and Letters Committees
* Party for Socialism and Liberation
* Patriot Party (1960s–1980s)
* Progressive Labor Party (United States)
* Proletarian Party of America
* Proletarian Unity League
* Provisional Communist Party
* Ray O. Light
* Red Guard Party (United States)
* Revolutionary Communist League (Internationalist)
* Revolutionary Communist Party, USA
* Revolutionary Communist Vanguard
* Revolutionary Communist Youth Brigade
* Revolutionary Marxist League
* Revolutionary Socialist League (U.S.)
* Revolutionary Student Brigade
* Revolutionary Workers Headquarters
* Revolutionary Workers League (Oehlerite)
* Rummagers League
* Socialist Action (U.S.)
* Socialist Alternative (US)
* Socialist Equality Party (United States)
* Socialist Organizer
* Socialist Organizing Network
* Socialist Unity (United States)
* Socialist Workers Organization (U.S.)
* Socialist Workers Party (United States)
* Sojourner Truth Organization
* Solidarity (U.S.)
* Standing Together to Organize a Revolutionary Movement
* The O (political group)
* The Trend
* Trotskyist League (US)
* U.S. Marxist–Leninist Organization
* Venceremos (political organization)
* Workers Party (U.S.)
* Workers Party of America
* Workers Party of the United States
* Workers Vanguard
* Workers World Party
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Which one is really "Communist"? You tell me, these are just the American ones, so I guess divided they fall.

Those that don't have a clue about the history of marxist/communist philosophy shouldn't really be talking about it in ways they don't understand.

I suggest that once you got the gist of what Marx and Engels were on about, move on to the 1917 russian revolution and then move onto Lenin's life particularly the end of it and what happened to Leon Trotsky. Then flash forward to the incredible accomplishments (not just the negatives) of what Castro and Che were able to do with a tiny third world country for their people.


I could change my name to Jesus - would that make me so?

[edit on 14/4/10 by ghostsoldier]

Originally posted by IgnoranceIsntBlisss
reply to post by ghostsoldier

 

How about you actually directly respond to my charges, and the comparisons with actual communist writings???

Or just be honest and admit that it / you are *Pure Communist*?

There wouldn't even be a point in making making this thread if TZM didn't keep declaring itself not to be communist. It's like the Freemasons trying to claim they're not a religion, but arguably more clearly worse!

If people like you and your corporatist handlers hadn't brainwashed the world into thinking that Communism is just as bad as sodomy they probably would admit that it contains "Communistic"-ideas. But seeing as how that is not the case - they are doing their best to legitamise themselves in a world filled with idiots who are trying to demonise it - on the basis that its tantamount to Stalinism.

Yes I'm a Communist - but unlike you - I don't have a mis-understanding as to what it is, why its failed in the past, why it is a good thing and why TVP is a good idea.

The Zietgeist Movement - probably thought (oh how stupid of them) that "conspiracy"-theorists would cling to the idea because its an alternative to the BS around perpetrated by TPTB. And if it spread, they might be able to build that theme-park for Jaque so that people could learn something cool - instead of going to Disney Land to become idiots.

But I guess they found out the hardway, that there are some losers who would rather demonise something so they can feel like they accomplished something meaningful - when really they are part of the problem.

[edit on 14/4/10 by ghostsoldier]

reply to post by ghostsoldier


Hey thanks for admitting that it and you are pure communists, although I smite your rash attitude.

The whole idea is based on the LIE that it isnt pure communist, and then you people act like this when people challenge it / you on what the very nature of it even is. This shows clear signs of Stalinism, so therefore you're already set up to repeat history should you get the chance.

[edit on 14-4-2010 by IgnoranceIsntBlisss]

reply to post by ghostsoldier


If you're just trying to cloud the issue,it won't work.

"A rose by any other name...."

Norman Thomas,U.S. Socialist party presidential candidate said,"The American people will never knowingly adopt Socialism,but under the name of Liberalism they will adopt every fragment of the Socialist program,until one day America will be a socialist nation without knowing how it happened."

"As Communists we advocate Socialism because it is the next necessary step to get to Communism. That is, it's not that we've given up on building a house, we just realize there is a need for a sturdy foundation first." ( In their own words,not mine.www.scn.org...)

As for what Jesus would say? We've already been told that in "the end times" there will be worldwide tyranny,so I'm not even surprised to see it taking place.

James Madison:"The accumulation of all powers legislative,executive,and judicial in the same hands,and whether hereditary,self-appointed,or elective,may be justly pronounced the very definition of tyranny." (Don't we already have that,considering what an illusion the "two party system" has become?)

I do like this quote by Karl Marx though:"When all political foundations of religion are wiped out,when the organization and the institutional structure of the church are destroyed,then normally religious faith,the Christian faith,would have to disappear. But it is not out of the question that the Christian faith will survive anyhow. This would mean that there is a religious reality that does not depend soley on the sociological and the institutional,and under these conditions,we would have to heed this reality,which is not in the category of traditional religion."

If you like Communism,rejoice! You're winning! Because a country that doesn't stand for something will fall for anything! Having swept God and morality under the rug,infesting our schools and society at large with socialism from every angle,it worked.

"As for me and my house,we will serve the Lord."....

[edit on 14-4-2010 by On the Edge]

Originally posted by IgnoranceIsntBlisss
reply to post by ghostsoldier

 

Hey thanks for admitting that it and you are pure communists, although I smite your rash attitude.

The whole idea is based on the LIE that it isnt pure communist, and then you people act like this when people challenge it / you on what the very nature of it even is. This shows clear signs of Stalinism, so therefore you're already set up to repeat history should you get the chance.

No, I'm just pissed off at the ignorance in the way you're conducting the information you're presenting.

You call it Communism like its a bad thing - potentially thousands of lurkers will now dismiss the wisdom that the Zietgeist movies and The Venus Project has to offer.

You'd rather nit-pick terminology on an internet discussion forum - then actually promote an alternative to the root causes of our problems, just to stimulate a response.

You'd rather geek over conspiracies as a hobby, rather than solve them.

Who's the sheep?

I'm not saying I'm perfect - but I am saying that this thread is largely a waste of good energy.

I think The Venus Project is a step in the right direction - I would like to go to the theme-park one day - but while ever people are dismissing the entire theory just because they refuse to call themselves communist on an indy-viral video made by some kid who admired the philosophy behind Jaque Frescos futuristic-utopian ideals and the themepark they wanna build. I'm not going to get the chance.

YOU PROVIDE ME WITH AN ALTERNATIVE TO THE WORLDS ILLS - THAT DOESN'T HAVE A COMMUNIST UNDERTONE - AND I'LL TIP MY HAT TO YOU

IF NOT.

Then shut up.



ETA: ps. Stalin wasn't a Communist, neither was Hitler.

[edit on 14/4/10 by ghostsoldier]

reply to post by ghostsoldier


Again, thank you for admitting that it is pure communist. It's really quite simple: if it LIES about being communist, and chastizes discussion of its nature, then it must be bad. If it thinks its going to push its pure communist agenda it had better damned lay it all out on the table and explain in detail how it will bring about the vision of pure communism that historically every time its been tried it has failed. But it doesnt. It LIES.

And if you actually read this thread, and my 2 other ATS threads I've linked in, there are plently of potential solutions to the many different problems that ZP also tries to address. The thing about some of my potential solutions, is I dont claim to have the ONLY solution to all of the worlds problems like Addendum does.

Communism isn't ideas, really, but more ideals. If you direct the same motivation towards concepts of libertarianism, while building an overall system that prevents corruption, then there can be a way. Moreover, the ideal system would allow you people to have your own communities, and others to try their own ideas. But the global system ZP proposes seeks to prevent that even more than the current US Federal Government does. Nice try.

PS: It's remarkable that in earlier times debating this very issue I argued that it was "perhaps the purest form of communism ever proposed", and once I actually started searching for the parallel language of the 2 did I notice that in fact ZP is literally promoting "Pure Communism". PC has always been the original driving force of ideals behind communist movements, yet every time they decend into the abyss. The ZP 'we're not communist' propaganda is them referencing the blanket term 'communism' with the their failed state predecessors, while not admitting that their founding blueprint of ideals is the same roadmap that the others tried to follow.

[edit on 15-4-2010 by IgnoranceIsntBlisss]

Here's a new solution idea:
Globally promote education and resistence to imperialism via media . Phrases related to imperialism aren't often enough used. It's not well enough understood thoughout 'civilizations'. We need a global 'shame society' in the context of imperialism. This could even help satisfy some of the global village notions of the ZP rhetoric.

The only catch is, ZP is in fact imperialistic!

Originally posted by IgnoranceIsntBlisss
reply to post by ghostsoldier

 

Again, thank you for admitting that it is pure communist. It's really quite simple: if it LIES about being communist, and chastizes discussion of its nature, then it must be bad. If it thinks its going to push its pure communist agenda it had better damned lay it all out on the table and explain in detail how it will bring about the vision of pure communism that historically every time its been tried it has failed. But it doesnt. It LIES.

That's why they wanna build the theme-park. Have you even vistited the Venus Projects website, or are you just going by what The Zeitgiest movies have said?

No one is chastising the discussion of its nature, I'm chastising you because you are suggesting that the nature of it is inheritantly bad because (again) because they didn't call it communist on an indy-viral video made by some kid who admired the philosophy behind Jaque Frescos futuristic-utopian ideals and the themepark they wanna build.

Originally posted by IgnoranceIsntBlisss
And if you actually read this thread, and my 2 other ATS threads I've linked in, there are plently of potential solutions to the many different problems that ZP also tries to address. The thing about some of my potential solutions, is I dont claim to have the ONLY solution to all of the worlds problems like Addendum does.

You have not mentioned an alternative in this thread.

They don't claim to be the (as you put it) "ONLY" solution - they said (to paraphrase) "its not perfect but its the best idea yet." - So you are lying.

"plenty of potential solutions to the many different problems"

Lets here them. This is a new thread, and you're trying to make a point. Lets get some points down then, show some quotes, do something but don't direct me away from you providing solutions RIGHT HERE - and tell me they are solutions, and tell me they are not "communistic" in nature when you put them all together. Do it.

Originally posted by IgnoranceIsntBlisss
Communism isn't ideas, really, but more ideals. If you direct the same motivation towards concepts of libertarianism, while building an overall system that prevents corruption, then there can be a way. Moreover, the ideal system would allow you people to have your own communities, and others to try their own ideas. But the global system ZP proposes seeks to prevent that even more than the current US Federal Government does. Nice try.

Communism IS an idea
Communism IS an ideal

Capitalism IS an idea
Capitalism IS an ideal

Libertarianism IS an idea
Libertarianism IS an ideal

The Venus Project is about circular (highly functional) cities with high technology (alot of which doesn't even exist yet) and respect for nature.

Each one of those cities could be a different community about different things. One growing tomatoes and one building spaceships. Who knows.

But claiming that the monetary-system and the differential-advantage it creates isn't the root cause of most of the worlds troubles - is almost laughable.

The only thing TVP is trying to prevent, is the differential advantage and inequalities the monetary system creates. Sure they haven't filled in the blanks - but do you really need to solve all the worlds problems before you build a themepark - I mean get a clue

Originally posted by IgnoranceIsntBlisss
Here's a new solution idea:
Globally promote education and resistence to imperialism via media . Phrases related to imperialism aren't often enough used. It's not well enough understood thoughout 'civilizations'. We need a global 'shame society' in the context of imperialism. This could even help satisfy some of the global village notions of the ZP rhetoric.

The only catch is, ZP is in fact imperialistic!

First,
What causes Imperialism Corporatism Capitalism Differential Advantage

The Venus Project - if extrapolated away from its humble motives at this stage - to world wide implementation.

Would have NOTHING to do with Imperialism, because it would be built on co-operation and sharing. Capitalism creates scarcity. Scarcity creates tension. Tension creates problems.

The only rule would be removing human suffering, and evolving - in every sense of the word.

PS.
And if Imperialism didn't exist - you Americans would be begging Cuba for help.

PPS.
Oh and implementing a WORLDWIDE - EDUCATION - and - RESISTANCE to an FOREIGN POWER -through "CONTROL" of the MEDIA- Sounds a little too Communistic to me to warrant a tip of the hat. so for now I guess you better just



[edit on 15/4/10 by ghostsoldier]

Originally posted by ghostsoldier
That's why they wanna build the theme-park.

Just go to Epcot. Walt Disney was a communist and that was basically the utopian idelas that motivated his dream society.

Have you even vistited the Venus Projects website, or are you just going by what The Zeitgiest movies have said?

I've been all through the ZP materials. Read my 'NWO' tread I linked.

No one is chastising the discussion of its nature, I'm chastising you because you are suggesting that the nature of it is inheritantly bad because (again) because they didn't call it communist on an indy-viral video made by some kid who admired the philosophy behind Jaque Frescos futuristic-utopian ideals and the themepark they wanna build.

They dismiss being commie at every turn, in all of the official materials. Your a case point in example, as you 'chastize' "anyone" who disagrees:

I'm not even going to bother about an in depth debate with those against TVP...

At the official TZM forums they ban and block IP's if you go in challenging, as I know first hand.

You have not mentioned an alternative in this thread.

Hmm...

Originally posted by kr0ss:
I personally don't see any better solution than The Venus Project but if there is, or if there is any solid evidence that TVP is BS, I'd be happy to listen to your point of view. Jaque Fresco says the same, by the way.

Well, you can have a world centrally controlled by a monolithic communistic machine dictatorship, one in which once the machines exceed human intelligence (as is needed for it to even work) we face being annhilated, or we can strive for a world where people have a choice of what type of society they want to live in. Right now the US federal government is already too monolithic. I tried to get some discussion going about solutions not too long ago:
How would YOU build the new society?

They don't claim to be the (as you put it) "ONLY" solution - they said (to paraphrase) "its not perfect but its the best idea yet." - So you are lying.

Wrong. I just re-watched Addendum again a couple nights ago and there are TWO unapologetic occasions where PJ claims it as the ONLY solution. About in the middle when it transitions between the problem and their solution, and somewhere towards the very end I think just before the activism outline.

Lets here them. This is a new thread, and you're trying to make a point.

My point with this thread was to prove that ZP is pure communist. Arguments relating to such got buried in my other thread. Outcires for a solution lead me to start the other 'new society' thread.

Libertarianism is a framework (not a commanding blueprint) that actually allows ideals.

The Venus Project is about circular (highly functional) cities with high technology (alot of which doesn't even exist yet) and respect for nature.

I'm not sure that driving around in circles is ideal efficiency (I'm being serious).

Each one of those cities could be a different community about different things. One growing tomatoes and one building spaceships. Who knows.

Sure, but for it to work the machine running it would need to dictate who does what to have any certainty that all needs are being met to ensure abundance. I want to do whatever the hell I want. As I do it. As it makes sense.

But claiming that the monetary-system and the differential-advantage it creates isn't the root cause of most of the worlds troubles - is almost laughable.

Thanks for the good laugh, because I have never in my entire intellectual life declared that the corrupt monetary system as we know it is a good thing.

The only thing TVP is trying to prevent, is the differential advantage and inequalities the monetary system creates.

This is a good example of ZP black propaganda: it shows whats wrong with the system we have, as if its the only possible way to do a monetary system. That's the same thing the Federal Reserve itself claims, thats its the onyl way to do it. Look up: False Dichotomy. Did you in yourself just declare ZP to be the only solution?

you are trying to obfuscate what it is about.

!!!
*smacks hands together*


Man I needed a laugh that good! Thanks! ZP tries to obfuscate the truth of its ideology at every turn.

reply to post by IgnoranceIsntBlisss


Lemme get this straight - your solution is to do one of the following or a combination.

Originally posted by IgnoranceIsntBlisss
So come on lets hear it people. Are you willing to go down with ship?
www.usdebtclock.org...

Let me know is I miss any possible ways out...
*New societies.
*Off the grid into obscurity.
*Stick it out with the consumers.
*Move to Costa Rica (if you're loaded).
*Move to an island (if you're a multimillionaire).
*Move to Argentina (not a bad idea!).
*Move to New Hampshire (and hope theres time for their plan to work).
*Watch American Idol and forget about it.
*Buy a (big) house sailboat ($$$).

I've even thought long and hard about constructing artificial islands ("Waterworld"), for a few years now. Choice example:

The problem is building them so that they could handle the open seas.

If there's any other way lets hear it!

So really your only solution for the betterment of society is to build a new one...

Hmmm, seems familiar...

How are you going to do that so that it either A) doesn't perpetuate the problems of the world already B) does function on a large-scale to solve the worlds problems ??? Tell me man, I wanna know.

We can't all run into the woods and play Robinson Caruso to somehow solve the problem.

So far you got nothing, no alternative, nothing - you're just picking petty holes to divert your own short-sighted worldview from feeling out of its depth.

So I still think you should



I'd rather go to a Utopian Theme-Park than you're crappy floating island.

Atleast one is an educational-prototype for the betterment of world - not just a half-baked escape fantasy.