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Originally posted by EzraBuckley
Sit back. Take a deep breath. Uncle Ezra is about to truth you.
I have a thought experiment for all those who seem to believe The Constitution has some sacred meaning in and of itself. You see I maintain that the constitution is nothing but parchment and ink, and that its significance is only found in the way any given generation of Americans interprets it.
I have a thought experiment for all those who seem to believe The Constitution has some sacred meaning in and of itself.
Law is self evident and whatever interpretation of it remains simple and easy to understand and requires no fantastical paranormal hypothetical where instead of confirming that all they've been quoted for saying and cited as authority is true, they act as you've described them because, after all, it's your hypothetical.
The Supreme Law of the Land.
It's significance does not lie in what it grants, because let us be clear all that it grants is a limited amount of power for a limited amount of time, to a a limited amount of elected and appointed officials
its significance lies in the restraints it places upon the government created by it.
It is a sacred document because it has been "Ordained" by the We the People, and because it is law. There is no need, however, to cite any authority what-so-ever, as law is self evident.
Really? You think slavery and woman's suffrage would be the things they would fine appalling? Because I think it would be the central banking system, erosion of State's rights and general consolidation of power by the Federal Government as well as our broken party system. They would be appalled that what they predicted, the fall of America and our freedoms from within not without, is coming to pass.
You have put forth a false argument and superimposed your beliefs onto the founders and soldiers as to what you think they fought for or died for a signed onto
What? It grants power for a limited amount of time? For how long? I'd love to buy balloons and champagne for when the time runs out.
Originally posted by EzraBuckley
reply to post by hawkiye
You have put forth a false argument and superimposed your beliefs onto the founders and soldiers as to what you think they fought for or died for a signed onto
Nope. Sorry. The argument is intended to undermine the foundations of inherent reverence to the Constitution. It doesn't matter if, in fact, the founders and soldiers would reject the document as it now stands. The issue is that they COULD. And the question is, suppose they DID reject the document. Then, if the bases for considering the Constitution "sacred" (the founders and the soldiers) were to say "Actually this is a terrible idea" what basis is left other than the interpretations and sentiments of the present generation?
This generation is the only one that matters. The Constitution is parchment and ink with no inherent value that we are free to interpret as we wish.
Originally posted by Jean Paul Zodeaux
reply to post by EzraBuckley
It is perfectly understandable that someone who thinks offering fanciful hypothetical situations as a "thought experiment"
would have a hard time understand assertions that law is rooted in reality, and is not made of magic fairy dust, where wizards and elves get to change reality.
There is also no surprise to your confusion when discussing the limited amount of power granted elected and appointed officials. While you seem to think you can somehow undermine the reverence people show this Constitution, it also seems you've never read it. Why else would you ask this:
What? It grants power for a limited amount of time? For how long? I'd love to buy balloons and champagne for when the time runs out.
Every elected, and with the exception of lifetime positions for certain Justices, even appointed officials serve in office for a limited amount of time, and are granted a limited amount of power. It doesn't take hypothetical situations disguised as thought experiments to understand that, just reading the document for yourself.
our attempts to play semantics are out of desperation, for in the end, no amount of semantics can confuse what is self evident. No amount of razzle and dazzle, (not that any is on display here), will distract those who know the law, from buying into your moral relativism. Those who create the government, get to limit it, but in your world this is nonsense? Work for the government, do you?
No not wrong. Your argument is false. You have no idea how they'd react today your just imposing your own beliefs. Of course any generation is free to do as they please with it or any other document as is proven by this generation ignoring it pretty much.
Two things. One, in your initial assertion (the one I was replying to, which you don't quote here) you said, within the same sentence "the Constitution establishes nothing but only limits power" and "the Constitution establishes government and defines its power." This is self-negating. It's slightly worse than saying nothing at all.
When Richard Dawkins created his thought experiment known as The Weasel Programs, he did not create a paranormal experience where the ghosts of our forefathers magically appeared and then inexplicably followed a preordained script written by an amateur philosopher, instead what he did was rely upon simple data, 0's and 1's to create a simple hypothetical, one of which he borrowed and simplified further. The experiment was inspired by the thought that if a room full of monkeys sitting around banging on typewriters, were given enough time, one of them, or collectively, would write the complete works of William Shakespeare. The key in this hypothetical is given enough time, and Dawkins seizing on that, created a hypothetical that given enough time a monkey could type "Methinks it is a weasel".
I offer reverence for the law because it is a part of the reality of which we all exist, and of this law that governs man, I have told you it is in the rights of man that law exists, and so it does not matter to me that you hold no reverence for this law in regards to yourself, it only matters you respect my rights as I respect yours. Abrogate and/or derogate my rights, and you will know by what authority I cite the law. Harm me or my loved ones, and we will not exchange snarky remarks with each other, but we will come to know the law much more intimately. That's how we roll!['quote]
Oh but, see, here you fall prey to muddled thought again. You spend five or six lines not saying much, once again not describing the basis of the law you claim is self-evident. Sorry to be a pill, but I'm going to have to keep insisting you explain this point if you want to try to use it. Then yous ay something like "respect my rights as I respect yours" which is fair enough, but I'm still waiting for you to explain how those "rights" have any basis other than the rights people agree to give each other (moral relativism). I still don't see any natural basis for the Law, much less for the Constitution.
Then you make some kind of weird, vaguely threatening remark about vigilante justice. This actually destroys your entire case, because "vigilante justice" presupposes that there are times when our law is not a perfect representation of "natural law", when people need to go outside "the law" to get "justice." So if the law were a simple and perfect reflection of some ideal Natural Law, it would be one and the same with Justice and there would never be a need for the weird vigilantism you threaten for no good reason.