Martian Rovers do stuff. Again. (I smell a distraction)

With yesterday's article on CNN.com detailing yet another spiffy mission for the two newest Martian rovers to head off on, basically collecting even more rocks and confirming the existence of craters on the planet's surface.

Why the hell do we even pay attention anymore? This is not news; we did the same basic thing back in 1997, when a lot of people made a huge deal over it, despite the fact that we'd achieved the same goal with the Viking probes back in the 70s. No matter how many "scientific breakthroughs" we have accomplished by sending wave after wave of these little toys to the Red Planet, I'm guessing they don't justify the multi-million dollar price tags. No, there's something else we're not being told.

I can't accept that, in a time where NASA's budget is being hacked to pieces, that we'd continue to run the same experiments we've been running for years. I'm guessing that the military has some vested interests in the planet, not necessarily for discovering intelligent life (any smart person has probably given up on that idea) but what about alternative reasons: rare alloys found only in the Martian geo-atmospheric climate? Space-bound, undetectable missile launch pads? Your guesses are as good as mine, so please share them!

Originally posted by Don Armageddon
we'd continue to run the same experiments we've been running for years.

We aren't?

Expensive? HA! It was less than a billion dollars. In science, especially science on a nother planet, that is ridiculously cheap.

I did research in a small college with only of other researcher and we had millions of dollars of grant money.

One day a miscalculation even blew up half our lab taking out equipment worth a nice new house and several cars. And we were LOW budget for research physist.

And before anyone ask... we were heating a metal-oxide combination for differential thermal analysis in a high temp dif-therm furnace. We miscalculated the energy of the reaction and used too large a sample. The cost involved came in because of the expensive furnace and the micro-sized platinum leads on the thermocouples.

Originally posted by Quest
And before anyone ask... we were heating a metal-oxide combination for differential thermal analysis in a high temp dif-therm furnace. We miscalculated the energy of the reaction and used too large a sample. The cost involved came in because of the expensive furnace and the micro-sized platinum leads on the thermocouples.

Hmm...I smell another cover-up! Sounds like weapons testing to me!

Considering what they're doing, one may not think it's that expensive, but for the results we are receiving it doesn't seem to justify the cost. America IS in a recession, you know.

please think before u say things like its to costly..
the health programme of the usa is to costly, the department of defense is to costly.. but space exploration is the only way to unified peace..
the space programme creates jobs if it isn't there the usa is in more problemes because more people are jobless. if we go on and do the new vision of space exploration it will create many jobs in all sectors. the production industry, rechearch,... ect.
creating a new space craft we need people to do rechearch, testing, production of materials to make the parts of the craft and the prototypes.. we need people for security people for flying the craft people need food and drinks so people are going to work in the catering and so on..
you will have to invest yes but it will pay out even in lesser economic situations.

NASA has had its good moments and bad, like any other institution. Overall, they're great. We need to expand our frontiers as our planet will one day overpopulate, and many problems can find feasible solutions in the space frontier. One good reason I can think of right off the bat is the call for zero population growth. It just ain't gonna happen without forcing it on people, which has proven disastrous in the past, such as killing female children so only male children are born. That's not a solution. That's mass genocide on a grand, unthinkable scale. Also, at least 2 world religions frown on birth control of any kind, so forcing them to change their religious tenets would be the only solution. And that's isn't acceptable either in my book. Rather, expanding our horizons into space seems the more viable solution. Orbital cities, moon colonies, things of that nature, but not genocide, mass sterilization or population control by edict.

Originally posted by Don Armageddon


I can't accept that, in a time where NASA's budget is being hacked to pieces, that we'd continue to run the same experiments we've been running for years. I'm guessing that the military has some vested interests in the planet, not necessarily for discovering intelligent life (any smart person has probably given up on that idea) but what about alternative reasons: rare alloys found only in the Martian geo-atmospheric climate? Space-bound, undetectable missile launch pads? Your guesses are as good as mine, so please share them!

space based launch platforms for missiles are outlawed by so many arms limitation treaties it dont matter what planet orbit their in. not to mention the cost for something that big in the orbit of another planet. hell somelike like that in EARTH orbit is too expensive. launch cost to put all the pices up there, and dont forget maintiance. well it would be kinda cool to service ICBMs in space sence thats my job in the air force, but its hella expensive.

Originally posted by Undomiel
NASA has had its good moments and bad, like any other institution. Overall, they're great. We need to expand our frontiers as our planet will one day overpopulate, and many problems can find feasible solutions in the space frontier. One good reason I can think of right off the bat is the call for zero population growth. It just ain't gonna happen without forcing it on people, which has proven disastrous in the past, such as killing female children so only male children are born. That's not a solution. That's mass genocide on a grand, unthinkable scale. Also, at least 2 world religions frown on birth control of any kind, so forcing them to change their religious tenets would be the only solution. And that's isn't acceptable either in my book. Rather, expanding our horizons into space seems the more viable solution. Orbital cities, moon colonies, things of that nature, but not genocide, mass sterilization or population control by edict.

Uh...what?

Talk about a non-sequitur...

Well let's use a logical train of thought: If we will eventually run out of resources on the earth for building habitats for humans and all the various trappings of civilization, we will need to learn what treasures the planets and moons of our solar system hold and how to go about accessing them. Looking for and finding new and rare alloys is certainly not some aggregious sin and in fact is the premise of almost every expedition into unknown territory humanity has ever made. The real non-sequitur would be to assume that all that transpires around you does so magically, without the need for defense, offense, and the machine of civilization. This envitably ties into expansion for human life, as bringing our building materials with us to colonize new planets, would be difficult at best and down right inefficient in the bigger picture.

The 1997 mission was as follows:

The mission had the primary objective of demonstrating the feasibility of low-cost landings on and exploration of the Martian surface. This objective was met by tests of communications between the rover and lander, and the lander and Earth, tests of the imaging devices and sensors, and tests of the maneuverability and systems of the rover on the surface. The scientific objectives include atmospheric entry science, long-range and close-up surface imaging, rock and soil composition and material properties experiments, and meteorology, with the general objective being to characterize the Martian environment for further exploration. (Mars Pathfinder was formerly known as the Mars Environmental Survey (MESUR) Pathfinder.)

nssdc.gsfc.nasa.gov...

The 2004 mission is:

The mission seeks to determine the history of climate and water at a site on Mars where conditions may once have been favorable to life. The landing sites at Gusev Crater and Meridiani Planum were selected on the basis of intensive study of orbital data collected by the Mars Global Surveyor spacecraft and other missions. These sites offer evidence that liquid water was once present. The rovers' scientific instruments will be used to read the geologic record at each site, to investigate what role water played there, and to determine how suitable the conditions would have been for life.

www.athena.cornell.edu...


It sounds to me as if the 1997 mission provided information that was in need of further investigation and thusly better equipment was sent with specific tests for the data they collected on the 1997 mission.

The only reason you seem to be at odds with this appears to stem more from your distaste for NASA and its apparent connection to the US military. I was attempting to redirect your attention to what this will inevitably be about, because even if we start it as a military project, it will inevitably require civilians as well as military to advance it, which will lead to commerce, education and so on. You know, extrapolate a bit farther out than your dislike of the military machine and you'll find normal people waving back at you, common folks who need a place to live and work in the future, when the populace has outgrown the confines of the planet or our science as made it possible to explore the reaches of space with a modicum of comfort and safety. Space Exploration is initially a military/scientific communion, because your average citizen wouldn't be thrilled to risk their lives to explore the dangers of space.





[Edited on 5-6-2004 by Undomiel]

No, I understand your position, it's just that your post was completely against the grain of the purpose of the post, which is why I wasn't sure what point you were trying to make.

As much as we might like to pretend that this is a way out of world overpopulation, it isn't there's no way that we could send enough people to Mars or elsewhere to make up the difference in population growth on earth. Some sort of controls on birth is the only real option, just make it one birth instead of one child.

Originally posted by KrazyIvan
space based launch platforms for missiles are outlawed by so many arms limitation treaties it dont matter what planet orbit their in.

I wonder what the aliens would say to that. Plus there are some truly evil scientists out there with loads of money. Although would they be able to get ships and equipment of the planet without resistance, who knows? I mean who really knows? Farfetched?

I agree with you Don Armageddon, there hiding something. Maybe something as simple as water? And a fair bit of it. There does seem to be a lack of information on this well studied planet. Tell me if im wrong, but they have had satellites orbiting mars imaging and mapping it for some time, so we should have a detailed perspective of the whole planet. But, so im lead to believe, there are certain images and parts of the planet that they seem to be cagey about. Why?

Hi, Undomiel, I also agree with you about colonization of space but what if it turns out that for some reason we cant. What happens about earth population then? I think there has to be some kind of control over birth, but what, I don�t know. How do you make everybody happy on this issue?

Originally posted by Don Armageddon
With yesterday's article on CNN.com detailing yet another spiffy mission for the two newest Martian rovers to head off on, basically collecting even more rocks and confirming the existence of craters on the planet's surface.

Why the hell do we even pay attention anymore? This is not news; we did the same basic thing back in 1997, when a lot of people made a huge deal over it, despite the fact that we'd achieved the same goal with the Viking probes back in the 70s. No matter how many "scientific breakthroughs" we have accomplished by sending wave after wave of these little toys to the Red Planet, I'm guessing they don't justify the multi-million dollar price tags. No, there's something else we're not being told.

In the 4 years that the Viking Probes were on the surface, they had limited experiments and traveled 0 feet.

The rovers have numerous experiments and have traveled Spirit rover about 3.25 kilometers and the other one I always forget its name off hand...odyssee or some such thing...traveled what about a kilometer?

Originally posted by Don ArmageddonI can't accept that, in a time where NASA's budget is being hacked to pieces, that we'd continue to run the same experiments we've been running for years. I'm guessing that the military has some vested interests in the planet, not necessarily for discovering intelligent life (any smart person has probably given up on that idea) but what about alternative reasons: rare alloys found only in the Martian geo-atmospheric climate? Space-bound, undetectable missile launch pads? Your guesses are as good as mine, so please share them!

The experiments are only the same when idiots like you don't know crap about what you're talking.

I suggest you either learn more or shut-up for the good of this forum.

Originally posted by Don Armageddon
No, I understand your position, it's just that your post was completely against the grain of the purpose of the post, which is why I wasn't sure what point you were trying to make.

Other than not being aware of the fact that we have not been doing the same experiments and have been using the findings of the previous missions to build on for the next and different mission, what are you trying to get at. I smell something to and it's not a distraction.

I wonder.

Could they have sent more probes to mars than they are telling us ?
While we are watching Opportunity etc, could the others be wandering around Cydonia ?

Just a thought.



[edit on 12-6-2004 by Pisky]