English Defence League: Racism or Nationalism?

I fully support their stance. We are having a similar problem here in the states with the illegal mexican immigrants.

I see what has become of your nation. The left's forced multi-culturalism agenda has turned your nation into something no one recognizes. They want to pack as many immigrants as they can into the country, consequences be damned.

It's getting to the point where if you take a stroll down the street, you'll be lucky to hear english being spoken.

It's not racist to want a sensible immigration policy, regardless of what the left wing tells you...

Portrayal of the English Defence League in the British media

Most of what is said about the English Defence League in the British media is negative and biased, I've looked at a fair few articles and I shall post a few here. They are portrayed as being "trouble makers", I've watched quite a few English Defence League protest videos and in most cases it is infact the Unite Against Facism group who start the trouble, then some members of the English Defence League react to that, which IMO is understandable.

This article was written after the protests in Birmingham last summer, it aims to uncover who the EDL are and in my opinion is more of a propaganda exercise than an actual exploration in who they are.

A BBC Article on the EDL

This article follows EDL and UAF clashes in Bolton and the vast majority of trouble makers here were infact, members of Unite Against Facism, this group gets very angry that some people have a view that is different to theirs, they say the English Defence League should not and will not have a voice here in the UK, hmmmm sounds a little facist of them don't you think?

Telegraph Article on clashes in Bolton

Here is an article by the Gaurdian, yet again following the Birmingham marches, this article portrays the English Defence League as skinhead, knuckle dragging football hooligan's. Yes there is a minority that are like that, but the vast majority are normal people of all colours and ages. Notice the picture they use at the top of the article, one of some skinheads with their arms raised and shouting.

The Gaurdian Article

Here is a video that shows a man called Martin Smith talking on behalf of Unite Against Facism on Channel 4 News calling the BNP a facist, racist organisation, denying them of freedom of speech.
He calls the BNP a Nazi allied group who support the holocaust and if they were to ever get in power they would do the same! without a shred of proof to back up his claims!
I'm all for freedom of speech, Martin Smith of Unite Against Facism says he is yet in the same sentence he is DENYING that freedom of speech to the BNP.

Excuse me if I am wrong but freedom of speech means that everyone gets their chance to say what they like, you may or may not agree with what they have to say, but that is freedom of speech! If you ask me Unite Against facism are infact the facists which they protest against.




Here is a short video containing still pictures of the Birmingham protests last summer...




Here is a video taken in Harrow, London where only a handfull of English Defence League members turned out yet there were hundreds of violent Unite Against Facism and muslim extremists who attack the police, they were hell bent on having some violent confrontation that day and when the EDL were in low turn out they instead start attcking the police.




Here is a short video clip of Unite Against Facism members getting arrested at a protest.



[edit on 8-4-2010 by Resentedhalo08]

It's a very tricky situation.

From what i gather the UAF are generally a combination of the following factors:

Middle to working class folk.

Mixed race

Students, workers, teachers, unemployed.

Other groups who support UAF - Socialists, Music against racism , Ken Livingstone (former mayor of London) and other MP's , the anti-nazi league and the NAAR to name just a few.

They claim to be an anti-racist group trying to stop the spread of right wing groups such as the BNP.

The UAF have on some occasions clashed with police and the EDL , they have had members (and their spokes person) arrested and are (indirectly?) associated with groups such as Islam4UK (an extremist Islamic group now outlawed under the anti-terror act).

The UAF claim that police may have been too heavy handed with them as of recently, although the UAF have been known to clash with police just as much as the EDL.


--

The EDL are generally a combination of the following:

Mainly working class folk.

Mixed race (despite biased media, internet videos have shown Black and sikh members). The EDL claim not to be racist and have the support of some Sikh groups - although critics claim this is for posterity.

Consists of mainly consist of students, workers, unemployed .

Other groups who support the EDL are some members of the BNP (although on more than a few occasions the EDL have denied any links to the BNP - so as with the UAF and Islam4Uk this may be by indirect association).

The EDL claim to be Anti-Nazi and have burned the nazi flags in protest of accusations and media bias of any far right intent. On some occasions EDL members have been spotted performing nazi salutes - although the EDL claim they might have been infiltrated by UAF members trying to discredit them.

The EDL on occasion have clashed with the UAF and police and have had members arrested.

--

As you can see , as much as they seem to be polarised and contrasting , what we are witnessing are two forces become mirror images of each other.

As the UAF fight against fascism, they unwittingly try to silence the freedom to protest against their opposition.

As the EDL claim they wish to challenge extreme Islam they get branded racists and thugs.

Both sides it seems have their rights and wrongs.

Sadly i think this all boils down to a class issue. The middle classes of the left wing, do not seem to have had the same racial issues as the working classes and thus any vocalised opposition against one certain minority group is considered a racist slur.

Both sides refuse to see the sense in the other side, because as the EDL and the UAF square off against each other - other groups get attracted to the chaos.

BNP find one side, the angry asian youth find another, the sikhs get stuck in the middle, most decent honest people don't even know which side to choose as both seem as illogical to each other unless your causes are swayed or affected by the occurences in question.

Through out all this - we are seeing an increased police presence, a growing number of racist attacks (asians attacking whites, whites attacking blacks and asians etc).... and nobody in the UK really knows what is going on.

Good thread.


[edit on 8-4-2010 by mr-lizard]

reply to post by mr-lizard


Thanks for your reply, I do believe both of these groups have been infiltrated by various agencies who have their own agenda's, if Unite Against Facism are indeed aligned with Islam4UK I find that very interesting as I have heard from a few sources that Islam4UK is indeed a british intelligence front.
It deffinately wouldn't supprise me if various intelligence departments are infiltrating these groups and infact fueling them with more anger etc, if this were to go to a peak where things were to seriously get out of hand it would be the perfect way for the UK govenment to take away more civil liberties and to instill more controlling, draconian laws.

An interesting note to add, it is the British General Election soon and as a result before that happens there will be a brief dissolution of parliment, basically current MP's will not be considered as MP's but infact as candidates which in my opinion would be the IDEAL time for them to push through some laws which they usually wouldn't be able to get away with, as not being classed as members of parliment they are NOT bound by parlimentary rules and regulation for that brief period of time, no accountability!

[edit on 8-4-2010 by Resentedhalo08]

reply to post by Resentedhalo08


Aligned is too strong a word - i think Islam4Uk is one of the things that fired the EDL up in the first place.

So naturally if the UAF are opposing the EDL who are opposing Islam4Uk it seems natural that there is suspicion that the EDL could be the BNP or the UAF could be defending hardline Islam.

Maybe all sides are infiltrated with spies,agent provocateurs, well wishers, agents , journalists , genuine protestors, trouble makers, fanatics, patriots, nationalists, fundamentalists and under cover police plus a lot of confused people on boths sides and in the middle?

What a coctail eh?

Good old Britian - we don't half make things complicated.

The EDL has a lot of footbal lhooligans and a few BNP members in there. In Luton they attacked a number of Asian businesses and a few black people were threatened but they (EDL) backed off quick. The situation is the EDL has a mix of differing perpectives and is quite ill-defined as to its politics which make it right for infiltatration by other ultra right individuals. With the BNP going legit the hooligan elements can join the EDL.

I for one will not join and I don't think they would have a black man in there anyway. I missed the tube bomb by 15 minutes so am hardly a friend of terrorists plus the bloody palaver to get on flight these days.

The rerason why the midland looks so bad is because the jobs have gone.

Im Mixed race, half west indian half enlgish - im part of EDL, and proud.


EDL wouldnt exist if our government wouldnt let every dick and harry into our country, it that simple.

Its not racist to want to keep our culture, and penalise the people pushing there own culture into our society - its OUR country, OUR culture that for 100's of years OUR ancestors have battled to keep.

Its not only about muslims, its about every foreign person coming to england and saying they dont like the way we do things, they dont like our behaviour, attitude, way of life - they dont like anything that is British.

They come here not to work, but to rape our benefits and send money back to there families in their countries. If you are part of the EU, you can come to England - claim benefits. Thats £120 every 2week, per person. Then its £65 every week toward a house, thats £260 + £240 = £500 per month, per person who DOESNT even work.
Thats £6,000 a year.

Its not like they come here with something to add to the country. O.k maybe 1 out of 40 have something to offer, but 39 dont £6,000 x 39 anybody? = £234,000 a YEAR...39 working people dont pay that much in tax.

The countries that these people are coming from dont see 6 grand in 5 years - so i can see the appeal of England.

Let me just get this out in the open;
I dont hate the people coming, raping us - because if I was from THEIR environment, i would do the same. Every person strives to better there selfs.

I HATE our government who doesnt stop them from doing this. Now lucky im not small minded like allot of people who i know, who dont see the bigger picture and just think they do it because they are dirty $%*&^%^ or dirty $%&&*^....They do it because the government that is in power....lets them

Now until this stops, im with EDL - because im not letting this country die. our money is been raped, and then the few extremist and people with hate that we let in this country that are trying to change the way we do things.

To me, this is pushed racism by our own government. by them not taking actions, we are left to do it our self - and unfortunately not everybody is so broad minded as me.


We need action, we need somebody with a voice who is going to stand up to TPTB...we need EDL

reply to post by n00bUK


Well one of your parents must have been an immigrant at some point? So its alright for you but not for other immigrants? you wouldnt exist if it wasnt for immigrants

reply to post by woodwardjnr


yes, they came and worked here. adapted to English culture and continue to work here.

Dont get me wrong, Im all for a multicultural country - but not people coming here and taking the piss out of our system.

I live in Beeston, where 2of the 7/7 bombers came from. i went to school, same form, same year as husseib hussain - who blew up the 56bus in london.

my environment is probably 100% different to yours, i see # where i live that most people dont see in a life time. Beeston is like 35% english and the rest is everything else.

Im far from racist. muslims, sihkhs, polish, somalians have the same veiws as me - com here, work and adapt to our culture, dont push your own - and if you dont like the way we live, its simple, dont come here.

Why do they only focus on Muslims?

Bad Muslims this Muslims that. They shout at moderate Muslims about extremist Muslims. Seems they've already labeled them all extremists anyway.

If i started up a group to protest against only Jews or blacks i'd be shut down in a sec.

Yeah, protect the country against useless immigration, against bad people, protect your culture. But as soon as you 'protect' it against just one group of people, you are not helping, you are just being xenophobic.

I've heard EDL supporters complain about muslims doing whatever, muslims saying whatever. But they never actually do anything about it! Speak to the comunity, work with local groups, lobby the government. Don't just sit about in the street shouting about it!

They only spread hate, nothing else.

reply to post by Resentedhalo08


I don’t think there is an accurate way to compare the U.S. and Britain as far as a change – or perceived change- in national identity and race are concerned.

Granted, the U.S. has certainly had its share of racial problems and those of immigration and integration but it has always been, from the start, a heterogeneous society. From our inception, we have had the Native population, European immigrants and African populations. Also, the waves of immigration were from various parts of the world, including South American, Asian , Eastern European, etc. and were always ongoing.

So we learned, bit-by-bit, to assimilate. Hasn’t been perfect and was blood shed to get there but it has worked and still is working for the most part.

Britain, on the other hand, has for most of its existence been pretty homogeneous. I understand the whole Anglo-Saxon-Norman thing but it’s basically been white, western European, Christians that have constituted your society for the greatest extent. Now that has changed.

What is really problematic is that the change is happening relatively quickly and drastically. That’s hard for any nation to cope with. Plus, I’m sure the respective size differences in population and geography have an impact. That’s a hard combination of factors for any nation to cope with.

Originally posted by Tiger5
The situation is the EDL has a mix of differing perpectives and is quite ill-defined as to its politics which make it right for infiltatration by other ultra right individuals. With the BNP going legit the hooligan elements can join the EDL.

Yes I agree the EDL needs to fully define it's main perspective, there are many people in the group all with differing opinions and ideas and yes it is ripe for infiltration by far right groups, who will hijack the EDL for their own ends.

Originally posted by Tiger5
I for one will not join and I don't think they would have a black man in there anyway. I missed the tube bomb by 15 minutes so am hardly a friend of terrorists plus the bloody palaver to get on flight these days.

If you wished to join the EDL, not that you do, you would be welcomed with open arms. The EDL has members from all backgrounds, wether your white, asian, black, chinese or any other race, aslong as you love this country and hold the ideals that we all hold that is all that's needed, a passion for England

Originally posted by Tiger5
The rerason why the midland looks so bad is because the jobs have gone.

Yes that's very true, but the question has to be asked WHY have all the jobs gone? I'm not blaming immigrants for this I'm blaming the government.

[edit on 9-4-2010 by Resentedhalo08]

reply to post by Resentedhalo08


Thats right, most people get EDL twisted and think that hate is pointed towards the people wanting a better life. But the hate is not for them, its for our government who have no controll and let people take complete piss out of our system.

Come here, work - adadpt our culture. if not, then please do not apply.

I hope people have been reading through this thread.

What are everyones idea's on this?

Are the English Defence League a racist organisation or a Nationalist group?

Most people in the UK have never heard of the EDL (in fact the only place I've ever seen them mentioned is on ATS)

And they are about as British as a wombat in a baobab tree.

Originally posted by Resentedhalo08

Are the English Defence League a racist organisation or a Nationalist group?

I think they're a bunch of kids who have absolutely no knowledge of or interest in British history (probably think Shakspeare was an American who won WWII) and just like getting p*ssed on cheap lager and beating up anyone who isn't white with a working class English accent.

Think A Clockwork Orange but without the intelligence.

I'm an American. I spent four hours in London Heathrow on a layover from Stuttgart. That's the extent of my 'in-depth' English experience.

I really have to wonder what English 'culture' is to the British, to me, and a good portion of the world, your culture is that of the imperialist monarchy of centuries past. In more recent times your culture seems to be watching Big Brother and football every night.

For these reasons I can't imagine what the desire of the EDL is other than to promote ethnocentrism and oppose all things Islam, without recognition of the moderate Muslims and focusing only on the extremists. Then again, I've read the posts opposing all Eastern European immigrants to your country which I would attribute to a problem of crime than immigration. If immigrants are taking all your jobs maybe you should get better skills? Sorry if that sounds harsh but honestly...I don't think employers give jobs to immigrants based on their status but their ability.

One last thing, sorry this is long. You may live on an island but you're within a reasonable distance to numerous other industrialized nations, why not immigrate yourself?

Originally posted by links234
your culture seems to be watching Big Brother and football every night.

Then you have a very poor view of who we are, we're not all lager louts who sit on our fat arses watching tv, granted there are people like that in this country, we call them Chavs.

Originally posted by links234
If immigrants are taking all your jobs maybe you should get better skills? Sorry if that sounds harsh but honestly...I don't think employers give jobs to immigrants based on their status but their ability..

It has nothing to do with lack of skills, there are university graduates who are having difficulties getting into employment.

No, a lot of employers are giving immigrants jobs for a few reasons, one is that the government implemented a policy where a given percentage of employee's have to be of a certain race, ethnicity and culture, all in the name of race relations.
Secondly, some employers are giving cash in hand jobs to these immigrants, they pay them less than the minimum wage. If your an unscrupiless (sp?) employer who are you going to employ? An english person who expects certain working standards, expects the correct amount of money? or, an immigrant who is deperate for money, sends a large portion of it back home to their families, they work all the hours the can get, minimal rights and work standards, gets the money cash in hand so the national minimum wage doesn't apply?

Originally posted by links234
One last thing, sorry this is long. You may live on an island but you're within a reasonable distance to numerous other industrialized nations, why not immigrate yourself?

Because this is MY country, I want to live where I have always lived and live the way that I want to! Every person on this planet deserves to belong to their own country, to live the way they like and immerse themselves in their culture.

A big problem I have with immigration to this country is this, we are an island and a small one at that. We have limited space and a crumbling infrastructure, the massive influx of people coming to this country has pushed our various infrastructures to breaking point.

I do not blame the immigrants, they just want a better life.

I blame the government for having an open doors policy with regards to immigration.



[edit on 11-4-2010 by Resentedhalo08]

like i said in previouse posts; allot of EDL members are not blaming the people comignng over looking for a better place to live, but blaming the government for letting so many people in. It seems our government are letting anybody in.

EDL is a start. unfortunatly its going to get a few people who are small minded and just think its foreign people comign here because they know its easy and want to rape are land, which it isnt.


ATM, to ME - its the biggest problem the UK has faced for decades. Less imigrants = more work, less benefits going out and more money going into our own country.


Why do we have to let everybody into brittian? Why cant a person HAVE to be able to add to our economy before been able to come here?


The only problem people have atm with immigrants; 20 out of 30 immigrants are coming here without qualifications, they are ex offenders, have no qualifications and are just sitting on there asses or taking our jobs by accepting less than £4 an hour on £10+ hour jobs.

my friend lost his job, of 3years - he was on £13 an hour basic. He lost his job to 2 polish lads who were willing to split the £13 an hour wage between the 2 of them?


Out government isnt willing to sort this out to the extent thats needed. EDL is a foot in the door. Until something better pops up its the only chance in hell we have.


**Edit for spelling**

[edit on 12-4-2010 by n00bUK]