Denounce God or Watch your children die!!!

Not sure if this is the correct place to start this thread so if it needs to be moved mods please do so.



Ok now that i have your attention with this most interesting subject line i pose a question.

Some years back i remember watching some movie or something about the end of days and the antichrist making everyone choose to denounce god and take his mark or else perish and die. For most christians strong in their faith this is a very easy choice to make. To die for the sake of jesus is the greatest thing a christian can do in service to god. I mean even when i was watching this movie i myself felt the same way. "I would gladly die for god rather than denounce him" i thought. However the devil would be much more cunning than that. Yes he may make it that simple for alot of people however i tend to think he will use our weaknesses against us to cripple us to the point where we feel we have no choice. He wont allow us to be martys so easily. The point being is he will most likely not kill us but force us to watch as our families are slaughtered or raped or tortured.


So here it is. As a former christian myself i wondered to what degree i could stay devoted to god. How far could i go for my faith. Basically how strong was my faith and devotion to my god. Yes currently it is gone. I make no pretence of the fact i lost my faith and am on the fence. But back then i truly wondered. When i was in the spirit i felt like there wasnt any limit to it. Yes i said i could suffer through such atrocities knowing that thelives of those the devil would destroy werent mine to begin with. All beings belong to god and if this be his will so be it. Now i am not so sure of course.

Keep in mind this is all in the context that the end times prophecys are real and this will occur. I do not want to start a debate on if this is real or not. We are assuming it is for the sake of argument here.

So its a question i pose to you. I truly look forward to hearing your yes or no's, but am more interested in your why or why nots.

We all die anyways. What is the point of buying another minute of life if you surrender your dearest beliefs?

You may as well provoke them, and denounce their authority.

Why would you want to live on a planet with people who kill you for not agreeing with them anyway?

I know I would rather die. It's the prudent choice.

Keep in mind this is all in the context that the end times prophecys are real and this will occur. I do not want to start a debate on if this is real or not. We are assuming it is for the sake of argument here.

Sorry, but I do not believe the end-times prophecies are real, nor do I believe the scenario you've presented will occur

And as this is the interwebs, where today's hypothetical is tomorrow presented as fact (similar to your sensationalistic thread-title) I feel it's irresponsible to float this sort of nonsense before those who (many of) will read only the thread-title --- and will not see your disclaimer

reply to post by fizzy1

The point being is he will most likely not kill us but force us to watch as our families are slaughtered or raped or tortured.

What's more crazy...the idea that you know this, yet ponder allegiance to it, or that like you, many others accept and fear these fabricated lies and let it control their lives..?

I make no pretence of the fact i lost my faith and am on the fence.

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/436e2eed4e00.gif[/atsimg]


Must be nice to know that you can Denounce your god, but 'forgive' him/it later knowing you two will be best friends again...





Try thinkin' for yourself man...

well I personally would stand up for my God
no matter what cuz he once stood up for me.

reply to post by fizzy1


Considering that God has shown no interest in me I really don't have any loyalty to him. On top of that I would think a merciful God would understand that in denouncing him I was saving myself or my children or whoever the dark lord decided to put in danger.

Now there is a big difference between denouncing one particular God and suddenly throwing in with Evil.

For the record I don't believe Satan or the Christian God even exist (let alone the anti-Christ) but as a former Christian I can remember moments when my devotion was great enough to make sacrifices for God.

It always amazes me how much I thought God had done for me when really, as far as the evidence is concerned, God seems absolutely absent from our world. God must be a ninja - all these religions and no one can seem to find him

reply to post by Titen-Sxull


Waaa Waaaa Waaaa.
All I had to read was your first line.

Rather than make some kind of draconian threat like "accept the mark or your children will die," wouldn't it be easier to just slide it past people somehow without their really understanding what was going on? For example,

"Accept this special high-tech inplant for a part of your body...say, your right hand or forehead, for example...don't worry, its totally invisible, and it carries immeasurable advantages. For example, as our superconnected globalized world moves into the age of the new, ultra-convenient cashless society, you may not be able to buy or sell without it! Best of all, everyone who joins the new cashless chip-system gets a new super-duper "6-figure" credit line, at new teaser rates! Nobody denied! What are you waiting for? Only a few backwards cranks and wingnuts have concerns; all the stylish and fashionable people are flocking to the new system. Don't be left out in the cold with the losers!"


hmmm...

Originally posted by muzzleflash
We all die anyways. What is the point of buying another minute of life if you surrender your dearest beliefs?

You may as well provoke them, and denounce their authority.

Why would you want to live on a planet with people who kill you for not agreeing with them anyway?

I know I would rather die. It's the prudent choice.

Well said, couldn't agree more.


I also agree with Dock. Your headliner is irresponsible and quite juvenile. Try more of an intelligent way to get people's attention other than trying to manipulate the forum with nothing but shock value.

reply to post by csulli456


Perhaps you didn't understand the point of my first line. Why would someone show loyalty to a disembodied sky daddy who has shown them no direct proof of his existence let alone any of the: love, mercy and kindness promised in Church doctrine?

Remember, it its their doctrine that states God is a Father, well he has neglected me quite a bit and as you can see I'm bitter

Then again that's the kind of parenting you'd expect from something that's fictional

Fizzy I remember seeing a movie like that. And I remember my husband and I had a very long talk about this.

I want to ask a serious question. I don't mean to offend but I have always wondered about this.

Why not just lie? If it is to save your children why not just lie.
I do believe in standing up for what you believe in, but why not simply just say 'okay fine'.

Wouldn't the higher power you believe in know that in your heart you believe? Wouldn't they just be words you are saying out loud and not what goes down to your very core? Would those who asked you to denounce ever really know ?

Originally posted by Titen-Sxull
reply to post by csulli456

 

Perhaps you didn't understand the point of my first line. Why would someone show loyalty to a disembodied sky daddy who has shown them no direct proof of his existence let alone any of the: love, mercy and kindness promised in Church doctrine?

Remember, it its their doctrine that states God is a Father, well he has neglected me quite a bit and as you can see I'm bitter

Then again that's the kind of parenting you'd expect from something that's fictional

Let me ask you this honestly. If you know what you believe and you are comfortable with it... why does it matter what others believe? What makes your beliefs so 'right' while you deem others wrong?

I have posted questions like this on different threads but never seem to get an answer, usually some lame shot back about grammar or spelling never addressing my question.

I am not looking for a fight, just an honest answer.

reply to post by fizzy1

The religious heritage that has been handed down to us is a synthesis of social ideas that came from radically divergent sources with very different purposes. I am surprised that anyone could ever make any sense of it.

"Devotion (or obedience) to God" is a fairly obvious social control mechanism. The promised reward is eternal life. And the penalty for non-compliance, eternal suffering. This was just an operation run on the human population in an attempt to keep them in line. It never worked on Earth.

"Respect for the Creation, the Creator, and acknowledgment of your responsibilities" was basically an attempt to reform religion. You've got to be aware of the context for this: In the days of the Buddha and of Jesus and other teachers, religion was basically the only social framework. It had to encompass local politics, national and international politics, trade, commerce - all aspects of human life. There was no other belief system or philosophy that really held sway back then, that was not in the context of some religious system.

The beings who created ancient religion, as well as many who later sought to reform it, are long gone from our scene. Since those times we have developed a huge body of "secular" law and philosophy, almost to the point of marginalizing religion.

I don't think we can have an intelligent discussion about subjects such as the one advanced by the person who started this thread without modernizing our ideas of how our earth religions developed and what purposes they served.

reply to post by fizzy1


Screw that. If the government is raping and killing my family in front of me in order to get me to renounce my faith, let them chop off my head. Good riddance. I would seriously rather die than live with that kind of sick sh*t the rest of my life.

Also, by the time a situation like this occurs:
1) There should be no reason the government will have moral high ground
2) Revelations is pretty much validated, so this is quite simply the most evidence one could ever have for the existence of a higher power. Therefore, the preferred choice of getting my head chopped off (which I would gladly do just to skip a painful life full of totalitarianism control anyway, yeah trust me people who don't choose this route, you will wish you had) will in all likelihood result in divine reward, too. No brainer.

reply to post by Justaposter


I was indoctrinated into Christianity at an early age and grew up believing it was all true. My Father was (and still is) a hardcore Christian who had turned from being an alcoholic thanks to "Jesus". He was a fundamentalist so I was taught the Bible was the absolute and unerring word of God.

So when I became a teenager and learned how to form thoughts of my own I realized I had a great deal of questions about the Bible and that the beliefs I'd been taught created more questions than answers. For a while I still defended the faith, by the time I left high school, however, I had lost what faith I had left.

What had happened was that I stopped going to church and stopped being spoon-fed. Once you stop feeding from the mouth of madness you realize how bad your stomach hurts and how blind you were.

I was forced to believe in lies, tons of them, and the scary thing is some people live those lies for their entire lives. That is why I take every opprotunity to expose the elements of our belief systems that make no sense because I hope that the blind believers will learn how to see.

Jesus questioned the religious establishment of his day, he didn't sit idly by and let people be brainwashed by nonsense. Maybe more Christians should be like Jesus

In order to not derail the thread any further I will ask anyone replying to this post to do so via U2U.

[edit on 8-4-2010 by Titen-Sxull]

Originally posted by Titen-Sxull
reply to post by csulli456

 

Perhaps you didn't understand the point of my first line. Why would someone show loyalty to a disembodied sky daddy who has shown them no direct proof of his existence let alone any of the: love, mercy and kindness promised in Church doctrine?

All right then, I guess it's time to show loyalty to a govt. that rapes and kills your family in front of you and doesn't tolerate religious differences.

reply to post by darkbake


What? The scenario is hypothetical and related to the anti-Christ. And denouncing God does not mean submitting to the government.

Also, if my children were in danger I would gladly submit to any government to spare their lives unless the horrors they would endure if they were alive were worse than if they were dead (if that makes sense).

[edit on 8-4-2010 by Titen-Sxull]

Originally posted by Justaposter

Originally posted by Titen-Sxull
reply to post by csulli456

 

Perhaps you didn't understand the point of my first line. Why would someone show loyalty to a disembodied sky daddy who has shown them no direct proof of his existence let alone any of the: love, mercy and kindness promised in Church doctrine?

Remember, it its their doctrine that states God is a Father, well he has neglected me quite a bit and as you can see I'm bitter

Then again that's the kind of parenting you'd expect from something that's fictional

Let me ask you this honestly. If you know what you believe and you are comfortable with it... why does it matter what others believe? What makes your beliefs so 'right' while you deem others wrong?

I have posted questions like this on different threads but never seem to get an answer, usually some lame shot back about grammar or spelling never addressing my question.

I am not looking for a fight, just an honest answer.

Yeah, the problem with atheists is they are really stuck-up and closed minded, and apparently somehow take love and acceptance and tolerance all the way to its logical end... of killing people who don't agree with them. Yet... they don't realize that what they are doing makes their whole philosophy invalid.

Wow. Got alot of answers from all over the place. First i would like to say thanks to everyone who has posted and i must agree with the comments about the thread title. Coulda been a bit more thought out. The title did have just a bit of shock value to it that really truly wasnt needed so way to go youguys who pointed that out. So i shoulda titled it more to the point of Christians how deep is your faith.. Thats truly where this thread was going.

I used to be christian and like the person who was being spoon fed ideals from people i also felt this same way. I definetly feel god is absent from the world and is very much a ninja lol. The point i was trying to make in very much the worst way was, that when i was christian i felt deep in my faith and felt like i would do anything for god. No matter what extreme was to occur to get me to denounce my faith. No matter what tricks the devil might go to to make me denounce god. The core question here is how deep is your faith and was meant and directed at christians or anyone who is of similar faith. If that faith was called into question and you were forced to choose would you be like abraham and truly put your love for god first above all else or would in an extreme situation like that be forced to choose your family. The test of faith abraham went through proved to himself that god is and would always be first even above the love of his own children.

Every good sunday, church going christian today would claim that god is first above all else, then their family , then work, etc etc. However if that faith were truly called into question, would they give up everything most dear to them for it.
So anyways those who posted who have no faith in god at all, well its rather pointless cause i already knew YOUR answers cause they are the same as mine. Not no but hell no would i sacrifice my family for something i dont believe in. However if i believed, it would be a question of how deep does that faith in god run..

Anyways sorry again for coming off sensationalistic, jeuvenile and with so much shock value. Can count on my ATS'er to bring me back in line when i jump so far off it, lol


[edit on 8-4-2010 by fizzy1]

It is interesting you mention this.

This is a great story with a college professor at USC



Goes to show you have to stick to your guns. People can talk but it is another to do.

I will not say what I believe, but I will say I do believe in a higher power.

[edit on 8-4-2010 by Pajjikor]