DNA vs Melting Aircraft Metals: Who Wins?

First off this is a thread in the wake of the OLSEN thread about phone calls. I have seen so many people in that thread posting the follwing:

1.) Most of the Aircraft at the Pentgon Melted in the fire

2.) That DNA was recovered from the fire, and melting aircraft alloys, to identify victims of said diaster

Now we should all consider that DNA has in fact survived cremation before yes, 760-2100F

In fragmented states: from bronze age
www3.interscience.wiley.com...

Now further reading about forensic analysis of chared remains due to fires in buildings: Crispy Corpses
writersforensicsblog.wordpress.com...

Another source about warm climates that are moist and the usability of DNA at the SCENE: DECLINES!
www.scientific.org...

As quoted from the above article:

Warm moist conditions may accelerate DNA degradation rendering it unsuitable for RFLP in a relatively short period of time.

NOW: What we have stated as facts: We had warm weather [pun] and wet climate

1.) Aluminun alloy vaporized, adding EXTREME heat to the distaster scene

Boiling Point of Aluminum/Vaporization Temp 2,327C or 4220.6F

www.engineeringtoolbox.com...

2.) Now how much water did the Emergency Services Dump on the Pentagon, how much foam was sprayed on the scene?

SO we had BOTH THINGS that degrede DNA evidence for analysis:

HEAT and water and FOAM: THEN Vapoizing metals!


Sorry people you can't have all things this way. If the MSM is right, the DNA was destroyed: if it was in the fire!

PERIOD!

There wasn't a single person on 9/11 Identified by DNA Unless their DNA NEVER SAW FIRE!

Otherwise another huge whole in a story of lies and fabrication!


An interesting read as well....
nomoregames.net...

just my 0.02

reply to post by theability


I see you've started a thread on this, good. I posted THIS in the other one, about Barbara Olson, but is more on topic here.

Originally posted by weedwhacker

What some experts have called "the most comprehensive forensic investigation in U.S. history" ended Nov. 16 with the identification of 184 of the 189 who died in the terrorist attack on the Pentagon.
A multidisciplinary team of more than 50 forensic specialists, scientists, and support personnel from the Armed Forces Institute of Pathology, with headquarters at Walter Reed, played a major role in Operation Noble Eagle investigations, officials said.

Many of the casualties were badly burned and difficult to identify, an official said. Of the 189 killed, 125 worked at the Pentagon and 64 were passengers on American Airlines Flight 77. Only one of those who died made it to the hospital. The rest were killed on site, and for some, only pieces of tissue could be found.

AFIP's team of forensic pathologists, odontologists, a forensic anthropologist, DNA experts, investigators, and support personnel worked for over two weeks in the mortuary at Dover Air Force Base, Del., and for weeks at the DNA lab in Rockville, to identify the victims of the attack.

www.dcmilitary.com...


I suggest for those with any doubts, why not use some due diligence and actually CONTACT these facilities, and ask them?

I have been trying to get the point across for years that, if the plane was destroyed by fire it would have also destroyed DNA evidence. DNA evidence is destroyed by heat.

reply to post by weedwhacker


I must clarify that I do not refute that the DNA on the Pentagon lawn was viable.

What is being challenged is the plane enters the pentagon side, in violent, rupture of fuel, bodies are being destroyed by:

• FIRE
  
• EXPLOSION
  
• Building Structures
  
• Vaporizing Metal and Alloy's
  

Now you can quote all day about the response team, again being a paramedic in the army[and civilian], I have responded to my share of aviation disasters: If the plane is gone, the bodies are gone, so is the DNA.

Quoting the military on this is not going to make things different. The cell structures and DNA molecules would not stand this fight.

reply to post by theability


I comprehend your confusion, especially since you have real-life experience with accident victims, as part of your training and profession.

Originally posted by theability
bodies are being destroyed by:


FIRE

EXPLOSION

Building Structures

Vaporizing Metal and Alloy's

I think those are broad-brush generalizations, and I will explain what I mean.

But, what should be understood first, here, is this:

An accident victim involved in a vehicle crash when the body is still MOSTLY INTACT, then subsequently subjected to fire may be extremely difficult to provide adequate DNA for matching. HOWEVER, DNA is not the ONLY method to identfy victims, is it?

Do teeth, for example, usually survive most fires, relatively intact?

Now, as to bodies being "destroyed" by explosion?

Torn asunder, fragmented, yes that counts as "destroyed". But, even tiny fragments can yield DNA...(and there still are the teeth, right?) Or, say a small piece of skin, not in any fires, thrown clear...with an identfying mark of some kind...tattoo? Surgery scar? etc....

"Building Structures"? Well, a body impacting a solid structure, at high speed, tears apart too...so same answer as "explosion".

"Vaporizing Metal"

OK...misnomer, misdirection (and your source, where the guy talks about heat energy generation from kinetic motion and impacts) is deflecting, and confusing what actually happened.

NO ONE (at least, not serious, scientific types) claimed that aluminum (or alloys) "vaporized" on impact!!!

Fire WILL burn aluminum, as shown in many, many photos of aviation crash aftermaths.

BUT, with 9/11, we have FOUR airplanes impacting at very high speeds.

The metals will fragment 'shred', shatter, break into hundreds, thousands of small pieces.

SOME will never see any fire, and will be found in the debris and rubble.

Other pieces WILL be involved in fires.

SAME with the occupants...their bodies were obliterated, into many fragments, and scattered....

Sorry, it is too ghoulish to continue, but it had to be mentioned, in order to clarify.

reply to post by weedwhacker

I think those are broad-brush generalizations, and I will explain what I mean.

But, what should be understood first, here, is this:

An accident victim involved in a vehicle crash when the body is still MOSTLY INTACT, then subsequently subjected to fire may be extremely difficult to provide adequate DNA for matching. HOWEVER, DNA is not the ONLY method to identfy victims, is it?

Do teeth, for example, usually survive most fires, relatively intact?

As I described the temps of bone, or teeth remaining is below the temperatures of the metals melting.

"Vaporizing Metal"
OK...misnomer, misdirection (and your source, where the guy talks about heat energy generation from kinetic motion and impacts) is deflecting, and confusing what actually happened.

the intersting read part was kind of OT stuff sorry your correct...

Fire WILL burn aluminum, as shown in many, many photos of aviation crash aftermaths.
BUT, with 9/11, we have FOUR airplanes impacting at very high speeds.

The plane flight 77 was quoted to have entered the building, and with the little debris left on the lawn, like tail section and wings, [which is highly suspect to being with] was consumed in the relative fires and destoryed, correct?

Then you forgo this to quote a source that says 184 of 189 was identified:

1.) Not every passengers remains ended up on the lawn, its highly unlikely and improbable! Why seeing that the hijackers had everyone at the tail end of the aircraft, it was completely DESTROYED!

NOTHING REMAINED OF THE TAIL!

2.) The whole plane was engulfed inside a furnace of heat that melted the plane, which most of the kinetic energy, [if you use the sources you state], Was significant enough to force the entire 757-200 inside the pentagon, through feet of reinforced steel and concrete!!!

But you say all the evidence survived...??? Again can't have both!

My brother-in-law is a American Airline Pilot, who flies 757-767 and he even says bogus, that the wings, tail and 99% of the thing was forced inside the Pentagon.

Its a tin can loaded with fuel!


The area in question that the victims occupied was completely destroyed, there is no way you can have both.

Its highly improbable.

Show me the tail of the 757-200 and I'll believe that they identified SOME of them, but not all. That is absurd and MSM LIES!

reply to post by theability

The plane flight 77 was quoted to have entered the building, and with the little debris left on the lawn, like tail section and wings, [which is highly suspect to being with] was consumed in the relative fires and destoryed, correct?

Incorrect. So that is kind of the end of the story. The plane did not melt or vaporize. To be sure there were probably parts that did, but for the most part that is incorrect. If I am wrong then prove otherwise. Plane and therefore DNA survived.

reply to post by hooper


My god this is turning into another no plane thread....


WHERE EXACLTY IS THE TAIL SECTION AND WINGS?

show me I am curious to see!

reply to post by weedwhacker

"Vaporizing Metal"

I will with draw that statement your right, they say the fires metled not vaporized the plane. My bad!

but still my side still stands the same...

reply to post by theability


I think you are laboring under some very basic misconceptions.

First --- I have over 20,000 hours Total Time, about 13,000-14,000 of it with (another) major airline, including a Type Rating on, and thousands in, the B-757 and B-767.

Originally posted by theability
My brother-in-law is a American Airline Pilot, who flies 757-767 and he even says bogus, that the wings, tail and 99% of the thing was forced inside the Pentagon.

Yes, I agree. MOST went inside the Pentagon, because of the velocity. Momentum. ~480 knots, which my calculator says is equivalent to ~810.13 feet per second. (480 kts, divided by 60, then divided by 60 again = 0.13333... That gives you "Nautical Miles" per second. 6,076 times that figure, and you have feet per second).

This site does it for you, as well...gives "814.15 fps", but they use all the significant figures, even fractions of feet....


My point is, at that velocity (remember the length of the fuselage, overall? ~155 feet.) it all happens very, very fast. Momentum. Kinetic energy. Physics.

NOTHING REMAINED OF THE TAIL!

Well....possibly small bits, fragments. Recall, please, that the CVR and SSFDR are located there, in a service bay, AFT of the cabin pressure bulkhead.

2.) The whole plane was engulfed inside a furnace of heat that melted the plane...

No, not "the whole plane". That is a gross misconception.

... which most of the kinetic energy, [if you use the sources you state], Was significant enough to force the entire 757-200 inside the pentagon...

Of course, since portions of the building also gave way, due to the forces involved. As mentioned, the 'heat' generated came from combustion of fuel, and resulting fires. Of course, in any physical 'work', heat will be generated (see 'entropy'), but not significant temperature increases, just from the release of kinetic energy. Fuel-fed fires did that.

... through feet of reinforced steel and concrete!!!

Calm yourself.

It was not a solid wall. Doorways, windows, columns. AND, while that "reinforced steel and concrete" was designed to withstand something like a truck, at say 100 MPH (or more), assuming anything could even get that far before being intercepted (or build up enough speed in the parking lot), it could not possibly withstand the jet!

But you say all the evidence survived...??? Again can't have both!

Puzzling comment, since there are plenty of photos showing debris, parts and pieces, from the airplane, from INSIDE the building.

Very chaotic, the impact and crash sequence, things will be flung about, in many different directions. A certain core mass carries forward, but extraneous bits will be deflected.

Its a tin can loaded with fuel!

No, it's mostly aluminium, wiht some components made of stronger metals, and a great deal of composite material, to reduce weight. Fairings, wingtips, control surfaces....mostly made of composites, nowadays, not metal.

Here is a nice diagram showing the fuel tanks and their orientation inside:



The CENTER tank was not completely full, of course. Only had onboard what was needed, at dispatch, for the scheduled flight, less what was burned ftom gate departure until impact.

Based on ACARS transmissions to the airplane, the fuel load on the airplane when on the ramp was 48983 lbs. This results in about 36,200 lb. of fuel remaining upon impact with the Pentagon (the end of the DFDR data).

www.ntsb.gov...
(page 8)

The two MAIN tanks (Left/Right) in the wings each hold about 14,600 pounds. (Varies slightly, depending on temperature, as density changes. Ask your Brother-In-Law).

CENTER Tank max capacity is ~46,000 pounds.

SO, AAL 77 had about 7,000 pounds in the CENTER tank (36,200-29,200).

Fuel is ALWAYS burned out of CTR tank first, then "tank-to-engine" from the associated L/R MAIN tanks.

The area in question that the victims occupied was completely destroyed, there is no way you can have both.

If you refer, again, to the diagram above...note the CTR fuel tank (that was not completely full --- about 1,044 gallons, @ 6.7 lbs/gal) is located completely below the cabin floor, centered where the wing attaches.

AND, the tail section of the airplane was NOT "completely destroyed", at least not in the sense that you imply...since I think you are referring to that section, in the above qquote?

Show me the tail of the 757-200 and I'll believe that they identified SOME of them, but not all. That is absurd and MSM LIES!

You don't "believe" the information, from the sources provided you? The
forensics information? (Did you click on it, and read?)

The Recorders were back there... they survived. (CVR was recognizable, but too badly damaged).

Too many misconceptions floating out there, fostered by ignorant 'conspiracy' web sites, who don't really do proper research......





[edit on 7 April 2010 by weedwhacker]

reply to post by theability

Show me the tail of the 757-200 and I'll believe that they identified SOME of them, but not all. That is absurd and MSM LIES!

You realize, of course, that DNA is found in every single cell of the human body intact, correct?

And even if a body is torn into a million, literal pieces, intact DNA can still be found.

reply to post by weedwhacker

Calm yourself.

It was not a solid wall. Doorways, windows, columns. AND, while that "reinforced steel and concrete" was designed to withstand something like a truck, at say 100 MPH (or more), assuming anything could even get that far before being intercepted (or build up enough speed in the parking lot), it could not possibly withstand the jet!

Weedwacker, the area is QUESTION, was just reciently rebuilt to be BLAST Resistant!!!!

rotflmao! IT was just rebuilt!!....

example to sustain damage by EXTREME OVER PRESSURE!

A tin can with wings, ain't going to suffice millions of Pounds per square inch!

And to continue, I have a clue about planes and physics, I know conversions to feet per second, I understand what your saying,

But still: The question at hand is there is no way that you can identify all these people in the manner you describe, I am sorry I disagree.

Plus I don't believe a word about the data recorders from this plane and here is the reason why:

www.911blogger.com...

This man by request of FOIA recieved the FDR and the video sums up what didn't happen, if you listen and watch, like I said, the FDR says it took off from a helipad, not a airport:

So how can you believe anything, about any data recorder, on any of these flights this day, is beyond me!





[edited my bad spelling]

[edit on 7-4-2010 by theability]

reply to post by theability


Oh, I've seen the Calum Douglas video before!!

From almost three years ago?

Yeah, he's not very well informed. Remember, this is part of the group that originally received the CCV file data, and then improperly "decoded" it, from a boot-legged source (one that they could not name, for the person involved would have gotten into trouble).

No, this video, and Mr. Douglas, have no crediblity. Long ago shown to be without merit. Using it today is not assisting with any of your assertions.

Here, you can peruse these FOIA documents:

www.ntsb.gov...

Then, study this one in particular:

www.gwu.edu...

Finally, sit down with your Brother-In-law and look at this next one. Of particular interest, and he can help you, pay close attention to Figure 1, titled -- "AMERICAN AIRLINES FLIGHT 77: AUTOPILOT & AUTOTHROTTLE MODES & AIRCRAFT RESPONSE"

www.ntsb.gov...

Just a few things, right off the bat, as I look at it. And, you can discuss these with the B-I-L....because he will know hte "norms" at American Airlines. Those are the common procedures pilots use, that sometimes vary slightly between companies, such as AutoPilot usage and selection.

First, the Figure 1 shows the RIGHT A/P being used, first...before the hijacking takes place, normal operations still.

At my airline, the "Flying Pilot" ('FP') uses the A/P associated with his seat. So, if this is similar to AA common practice, then I assume the First Officer was initially flying this leg. (Habitually, at the beginning of a 'trip', or 'trip pairing', as we call it, the Captain tends to fly first....BUT, many Captains, myself included, would often offer first leg to the F/O, just to break monotony).

[sidebar----the "UAL 93" Figure 2 shows the center A/P being used, by the real pilots initially. Do not be confused by this, there is an explanation. Sometimes pilots choose that one, in order to give it some "exercise", since alternating Left/Right, depending on 'FP' (or, sometimes East/West route direction, for alternatives...or even/odd days of the week, many different schemes are used by different pilots) results in the CTR not getting much usage, so IF there were faults in it, or its systems, they might not be noticed UNTIL it was needed for an AutoLand procedure...or even a CAT II approach, if that is their policy....]


SO, back to AAL 77. We have the Right A/P engaged, but not until about 15,000 feet, as they climbed out. Again, this shows that the 'FP' enjoyed aviating, especially as it was a nice day. I was distantly acquainted with David Charlesbois, through mutual friends. They said this about him.

As a favor to the 'NFP', to lessen the workload, we use the A/P normally, and because when hand-flying, per procedure, the 'FP' usually 'calls for' mode changes on the MCP. Idea is to share the workload. After A/P is engaged, then the 'FP' does his/her own programming, with concurrence and double-checks by the other pilot. The 'team' concept, or "crew concept management', as it's technically called. ("Crew Resources Management", alternatively).

I could go on, buthave monopolized this thread, off-topic, enough. Just wanted to give you some background info, for you to chew on.


So, to come full-circle, the FDR data did NOT indicate that the airplnae originated at the Pentagon Heliport, not sure how they screwed up the data decoding that badly!

Besides, in addition to the FDR, thre are many, many other sources, to include the ATC tapes and transcripts that agree with the flight, from the gate until contact was severed, and FAA radar data recordings that tracked the flight, from departure at KIAD.

Ok Pilot: Explain in the last second of the FDR the 757 was at 400ft AGL!!!!

Not 15 feet.... and not even in the right position!

Not saying I believe this guy either, I am saying I believe nothing of what has been drooled out by the media about anything to do with 9/11.

It's fiction, a great work of lies, nothing more.

We have spent 100's 100's of billions of $$$$ on needles wars, killed to many my fellow soldiers, and what to we have to show for?

NOT A THING has changed.

Nothing!!

reply to post by weedwhacker

So, to come full-circle, the FDR data did NOT indicate that the airplaNe originated at the Pentagon Heliport, not sure how they screwed up the data decoding that badly!

If I remember correctly he says the ID for the Heliport is near BWA.

And just so you know, I never question your flying ability, ever, I just quoted what my brother in law said before he walked out the door when I was typing this thread.

Undestand this isn't a question of how much you have done, I am sure you have great experience in flying and that deserves due credit, my hat is off to you.

This was never anything about you or I, this is about the truth, rigths, freedom, and LIFE!

reply to post by weedwhacker

No, this video, and Mr. Douglas, have no crediblity. Long ago shown to be without merit. Using it today is not assisting with any of your assertions.

This is great, if you read my posts, I stated I don't trust his views and the points he provides:

I don't believe single SHREAD of data from 9/11 its all from all sides be fabricated, hoaxed and twisted beyond recognition...


What I do believe is my experience in disasters and emergency responses.

The training I recieved disagrees, NOT all the DNA would survive to ID 184 of 189.

[edit bad quote]







[edit on 7-4-2010 by theability]

reply to post by theability

Weedwacker, the area is QUESTION, was just reciently rebuilt to be BLAST Resistant!!!!

rotflmao! IT was just rebuilt!!....

example to sustain damage by EXTREME OVER PRESSURE!

No it was the windows which were blast resistant - designed to take
force of truck bomb witout shattering. Were placed in sspecial
frames to keep windows from being dislodged from walls

Even then it was only the windows on the outside E Ring replaced with blast resistant windows

The brick wall between the windows had a kevlar liner installed to resist
blast and fragmentation

A reasonably forceful blast from any close point along the Pentagon's surrounding network of public roads would create broad personnel risk inside the outermost of the building's five concentric office rings and could cause severe property and structural damage as well. According to Evey, "The Renovation Office recognized this shortcoming and was determined to address it effectively by incorporating improved personnel safety features into the overall renovation program." The blast protection task was included in the new design work for the first of the Pentagon's five "wedges" and is now a "template" for the follow-on renovation of the other sections.

Eventually, all of the nearly 8,000 windows in the Pentagon will be replaced with fixed double-pane glass mirroring the original architecture but offering improved thermal and ultraviolet filtering properties. However, the new exterior outermost E-Ring windows facing the perimeter roadways and the innermost A-Ring windows (at the courtyard center of the complex), being the most vulnerable, will be blast resistant. The new windows are an insulated, laminated, fully-tempered assembly that is designed to absorb and resist the blast loads without shattering into small projectiles or leaving the frame as a single unit. This design meets the client criteria for translucency and energy efficiency, as well as for safety in a blast event.

Here is longer article about Pentagon windows

911research.wtc7.net...

Windows were so resistant FF could not break them to gain access and
to release heat and smoke from interior - reference "FIREFIGHT" which
goes into detail about struggles with windows,

reply to post by theability


I agree, regarding the aggression in the Middle East.

Unfortunately, the Bush administration (and the Neo Cons behind him, pushing their agenda) were planning to go into Iraq, in any case. 9/11 was NOT necessary, as an impetus for this. In fact, they tried desperately to connect Saddam Hussein, and they failed. But, they used a multi-pronged approach of lies and deceit...(besides stealing the election from Gore, in Florida...)..."yellow cake" from Niger, (attempting to use Joe Wilson), fake "WMD", they had a whole armful of false pretenses already planned, because they were determined to enter Iraq, in any way possible. AFTER 9/11, was then they hastily tried to tie Atta to Hussein...failed.

SO, events of 9/11 certainly weren't needed, for their purposes.

And, it occurs to me that ALL of these distractions, about a so-called '9/11 conspiracy', just serves the purpose of directing attention AWAY from those other shenanigans. I think they're very pleased by this, and wish it to continue (maybe they foster it??)

Explain in the last second of the FDR the 757 was at 400ft AGL!!!!

Well, that is also old news, and another bit of misinformation spread by the so-called "Pilots For 9/11 Truth". I can't understand their (well, it's really only one person, in reality...) agenda, because they have no basis in fact, and no credibility left anymore ( as if they had any in the first place! ).

There is a thread about the FDR, a newer decode, done properly (and not the hatchet-job the "P4T" always point to).

See if I can find it.....
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Ah, that was easy:

www.abovetopsecret.com...


It got long, and heated, (as I recall...has died down months ago), had a lot of deflection and misinformation; still, that seems to be the norm then, and nowadays too.

Best bits are in the OP, and first pages, before it devolves....









[edit on 7 April 2010 by weedwhacker]

reply to post by weedwhacker

I agree, regarding the aggression in the Middle East.

what has been in the middle of this since the begining: On the right you have Afghanistan. On the left you have Iraq.


With the cross hairs in the middle, Iran.

The Agenda for 9/11 has always had to specific of goals, which only points to preplanning.

anyway....

not to get off topic on my own thread, sheesh....

but a while back I posted a thread about the USA building Iran a Nuclear reactor decades ago.


the thread is here:

www.abovetopsecret.com...

These are the reasons why I believe the theories explained to me about all this, 9/11 is a script...It has to flow, or it won't work.